Laws? Canada

i know your comment was not aimed at me steve i just am taking sides with your cooment to marts1 i also grew up in toronto in the seventies actually in the jane and finch area and i learned then that there is no use arguing especially with cops after i seen my friend argue with them and then get taken for a ride and ending up dropped back beaten with no marks next time i go for a ride i will amke sure i have my cousins business card with me as he is a cop out off the rexdale area you mentioned i have found once they see you know one of there kind they let you go with a warning
 
Peter, the beauty of that is my cousin was an OPP officer at one time. He was moved a around a bit so he was known over a large part of Ontario.
Since our last name is unusal they always asked if we were related. You are so right,it does pay. Here's your license. Just slow it down and have a good day.

My former wife was a cop as well and I heard all the in's and out's of how it works. Now that they are cranking down on MB's, that will be on the wire. Easy and quick money and there may be no way out for the victim. Just show up in court and state the statutes and you have a conviction.

Once they get a few convictions they will know how to play the game.

Ya, we called that falling down the stairs on the way to the cruiser. There are some real pro's at that.

In the early/mid 60's I couldn't go to Hamilton or anywhere near it. Another of lifes lessons. Do not dump a senior Sargents daughter for her best friend. Daddy was not amused. Think if he had gotten ahold of me there would have been a lot of stair steps involved.
Rexdale was a great area when I lived there. Left Toronto in the late 60's and moved up near Lindsay. Googled our old area and it's all changed. #23 is now a steak house.
When I go back east this summer that is one place I plan to visit for supper.

I have a pretty good knowledge of how politics works. My parents were very involved in them in Ontario in the 50's and 60's at a high level. I needed a good lawyer and
P. Trudeaus personal lawyer stepped in.
We might be able to change the laws in Canada but it will be a long, up hill fight.

Steve.
 
As I understand it, they don't like gas bikes because the fumes would stank up the bike lanes. There's also a law that says if there is a bike lane present, and you're on a bike, you have to use it. Kinda puts us gasoline MBers in a tight spot.
 
fasteddy said:
marts1, as Rockenstein said, they don't say that you can't put a gas motor on a bicycle in Canada.
Click to expand...

Exactly, they don't say that you can't and the day they do the importation and sale of the engine kits will likely stop. You can't import and stock store shelves with candy and then arrest the little kids for eating it right...and I'm very sure we have laws that protect us from that type of BS ;)

fasteddy said:
What they do is tell you that you can only put an Electric Motor up to 500W that will only make the bike travel at 32km/20mph.
Click to expand...

No they don't. In Ontario they tell you you may operate a power assisted bicycle on Ontario roads only if it complies with federal regulations regarding power assisted bicycles and has a label that says it does. In order to be in compliance with those federal regulations said power assisted bicycle must come from a manufacturer that the federal government has trusted with it's labels. We discussed the manufacturers and manufacturing topic some time ago in another thread if you remember correctly, I think I even provided a link to the federal government's list of approved manufacturers.


fasteddy said:
A gas motor makes it a moped and that is a whole new ball game.
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Says who? And you do know that the word "moped" is not used by the feds right? They use the word "Limited Speed Motorcycle" when describing motorcycles fitted with pedals. All things considered it's surprising that Ontario is still using the term. On that note many of the newer Tomos LSM's that are imported into Canada as of late don't even have pedals as pedals are not required on federally compliant LSM's. Engine displacement and rated top speed is the main criteria for LSM specification compliance purposes. Ontario's description, and picture, of a "Moped" or "Motor Assisted Bicycle" does not describe a typical pedal bicycle that has modified by the owner with the addition of an engine kit on a few important points, and I pointed that out in another thread. Those immortal words "If it doesn't fit you must acquit" come to mind...lol! IMHO it's really not a stretch to argue in a court that someone saying your modified or customized bicycle is something other than a bicycle is wrong because other provinces (think eastern provinces) describe a bicycle as just a bicycle even if it has been modified by the owner with the addition of a small gasoline engine. Too Ontario describes a bicycle with ... has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals, is designed to be propelled by muscular power. My modified and customized bicycle, same as it did when new, meets that design criteria completely and really when you add something to something does it really change what it is? If I add inflatable pontoons to my bicycle so I can easily cross the lake and get to the trail I want to ride on is it now a boat? What about those medical scooters? What if I need one at some point and decide that the electric motor isn't working out to my liking so I remove it and install a gasoline engine? Is it now not a medical scooter? Where does the law draw the line on these magical transformation arguments? Ontario describes a motor vehicle as something propelled or driven otherwise than by muscular power. What if I coast my unmodified bicycle down a big hill, attain a speed of 60 km/h and then continue to coast into the town 3 km away all without the use of muscular power...am I now operating a motor vehicle? What if I'm riding down a 0 grade road on my bicycle and I have a 50 km/h tail wind that is pushing me along at 15 km/h without the use of my muscles...am I now operating a motor vehicle? If I ride my federally compliant power assisted bicycle down a hill and attain a speed of 45 km/h, am I now operating a motor vehicle? There is lots to argue about with regards to Ontario's description of a motor vehicle too and this is important to remember because when you get ticketed in Ontario like Peter has they are not accusing you of operating an un-plated "moped" they are accusing you of operating an un-plated motor vehicle.

Anyway I hope all of us here, regardless of our differences or interpretation of written law, will jump behind Peter and support his efforts to have his tickets dismissed in any way we can. He is after all in a way right now entering a battle on our behalf and the outcome could offer legal precedent for others.

:)
 
Canada’s Motor Vehicle Safety Act (MVSA)
The federal government sets standards for 17-digit VINs, warning labels, 400 series highways, etc. MVSA defines vehicles for on-road use.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moped (motor-assisted bicycle)
· Looks like bicycle but has an attached electric or gas motor less then 50 cubic centimeters
· Maximum speed of 50 km/h

Can be operated on roads in Ontario if the driver…
· Holds a valid G or M licence
· Wears a motorcycle helmet
· Insures and registers the vehicle
· Does not allow passengers
· Ensures vehicle meets MVSA safety standards
· Stays off of certain highways such as the 400 series

Noped / Limited-Speed Motorcycle
· Look very similar to a moped, but does not have pedals
· Maximum speed of 70 km/h

Can be operated as a motorcycle in Ontario if the driver…
· Holds a valid M1, M2 or M licence
· Insures, registers and plates the vehicle
· Wears a motorcycle helmet
· Stays off of certain highways such as the 400 series

Steve.
 
Power Assisted/Electric Bicycle
As of October 2006, a three year pilot project on Power Assisted Bicycles has been put in to effect. The following is a guideline on how to deal with Power Assisted Bicycles:

“Power Assisted Bicycle” means a bicycle that,
- has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,
- is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground,
- is capable of being propelled by muscular power
- has one or more electric motors that have, singly or in combination, the following characteristics:
a) has a total continuous power output rating, measured at the shaft of each motor, of 500 watts or less,
b) if it is engaged by the use of muscular power, power assistance immediately ceases when the muscular power ceases,
c) if it is engaged by the use of an accelerator controller, power assistance immediately ceases when the brakes are applied, and
d) it is incapable of providing further assistance when the bicycle attains a speed of 32km/h on level ground,
-bears a label that is permanently affixed by the manufacturer and appears in a conspicuous location stating, in both official languages, that the vehicle is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in this subsection, and
-has one of the following safety features:
a) an enabling mechanism to turn the electric motor on and off that is separate from the accelerator controller and fitted in such a manner that it is operable by the driver, or
b) a mechanism that prevents the motor from being engaged before the bicycle attains a speed of 3km/h

Operators of a Power Assisted Bicycle must be over the age of 16 years and must wear a helmet as required by subsection 104(2.1) of the Act. Operators must follow the same rules of the road as they apply to an operator of a bicycle.

Rockenstein, I took these from the Durham Ontario police site. They seem to feel that they are official enough to post. This is what they will point to when they are in court. My money and past experiance says that the Judge will buy into it to. I really do hope I'm wrong.

Yes more than ever I hope that Peter is able to bust this wide open. We are being screwed and some of them got a $3,000 kiss afterwards. I am not against what your saying but you keep repeating what you think is a good arguement. It isn't.
Don't know how much you have been it court defending your self but I can tell you that the Judge has it laid out for him. He can only tell you how bad it is going to be. He is bound by law and past cases.
This is what he bases his opinion on.

Provinces can write harsher laws governing what is allowed but they can't lessen what the Feds. have written. Your grasping at straws there. Look at what happened to Alberta when they tried.

My e-bike kit came with both official language stickers.
Yes the Tomas that have no pedals are called nopeds and are covered in the rules above.
When you look up limited speed motorcycles you see pictures of a moped or scooter.

Yes, if you put pontoons on a MB and put it on the water. You now have a boat and you need a license to operate it.

If you are going faster than the speed limit or faster than the laws says you can go on what ever you riding what do you think will happen? I was clocked at 30mph in a 20mph zone going down a hill on my bike when I was 18. Cost me $30 and thankfully I didn't have a drivers license or I would have lost points off that. Judge said if it has wheels and your on/in it and speeding and in control it will cost you.

Hope you live in a big city where the chances of them catching you are thin or you will have a world of fun trying these theorys on the Judge.

They just love amature lawyers.

Steve.
 
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Fasteddy police departments can write whatever they like on their websites but if you want error free legal text your best bet is to get it from the official source. Anyway I can tell you that which you copied and pasted is not all correct.

1 example for instance...

Can be operated on roads in Ontario if the driver…
· Holds a valid G or M licence
Click to expand...

Even if you have a G you need an M type licence in Ontario to operate a limited speed motorcycle. The days of operating a "moped" in Ontario with a G are long since gone...lol...at the time that change pissed lots of people off actually.

Licensing Changes for Operators of Motor Scooters and Mopeds


When you look up limited speed motorcycles you see pictures of a moped or scooter.
Click to expand...

Right, and does either one of those look like a mountain bike with ZB80 engine kit from Zoom Bicycles bolted on? Does either one of the descriptions accurately and without question describe a mountain bike with a ZB80 engine kit bolted on? Can you register and plate a mountain bike with a ZB80 engine kit bolted on as either one of those things in Ontario? No you cannot. If you cannot then how can it fit the description of one?

Yes the Tomas that have no pedals are called nopeds
Click to expand...

Noped, moped, scooter, motorized bicycle, motor driven cycle, minibike....
The feds have had no such definition for some and for others the definitions haven't been used in a long time, like 1988 long time.

"minibike" [Repealed, SOR/88-268, s. 1]

"moped" [Repealed, SOR/88-268, s. 1]

"motor driven cycle" [Repealed, SOR/88-268, s. 1]

"off-road motorcycle" [Repealed, SOR/88-268, s. 1]

.
 
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Rockenstein, like I said, dazzle the Judge with you knowledge of the laws. He will be happy to hear it as he is figuring out the size of your fine.

May be you can visit the judge and debate law with him. I'm sure he will be so impressed, he'll be sorry that he spent all those years in school and his years of practise.

Just be sure to let us know how it went. We're all pulling for you.

Steve.
 
fasteddy said:
Rockenstein, like I said, dazzle the Judge with you knowledge of the laws. He will be happy to hear it as he is figuring out the size of your fine.

May be you can visit the judge and debate law with him. I'm sure he will be so impressed, he'll be sorry that he spent all those years in school and his years of practise.

Just be sure to let us know how it went. We're all pulling for you.

Steve.
Click to expand...

Why are you being so condescending?
 
there is also the option in my case to not pay the fines as i do not have any kind of drivers license anyways and also the worst thing that can happen is the unpaid fine will go against my credit rating to which the amount is meaningless anyways were financing is concerned
 
i know i have one from when i lived in toronto actually it is pretty funny actually i was walking home from the beer store with a six pack in my hand when this cop stopped me and charged me under the highway traffic act for littering because i discarded my smoke on the ground i guess he was mad that i was about to enjoy a few cold ones while he had to work his shift
 
Peter,that is a man with a small mind. I was thinking more auto related. Bigger fines and more likely to stay on your record.

My son got one in New Hampshire where he still lives and I used to. Gave some of his friends a lift home because he saw they were carrying a keg of beer. He was 18 and lost his license for 90 days because he was transporting alcohol under the age of 21 without a parent or guardian in the car. That is a chicken sh8t fine if there ever was one. Lawyer told me to pay the fine because you couldn't win in court.

Steve.
 
lucky for me i do not drive a car myself and the unpaid fines do not really matter to much i was thinking to avoid hassles in the future i will be installing an electric hub motor on my front wheel also that should really confuse the cops if i get pulled over again in the future
 
I asked the powers here about putting a dummy motor on my e-bike that I'm building and that will get me a fine so I'm down to a hub motor on the sidecar.

One member on Vancouver Island said that a lot of the fellas with gas motors on thier bikes in Victoria were busted a while ago. Guess the fines were impressive.
Trouble is that as the word spreads across Canada, towns and cities will have a campaign to shut down gas powered motor bikes. The fines will provide much needed money to the town coffers. If your one or two people riding around a small town or city you might be ok but that is no sure thing.

I've lived through the custom car and bike crack downs, were the cops had tape measures to make sure your lights were the right hight and you hadn't shaved the door handles so someone could get inside to rescue you if there was an accident or they wanted to drag you out of the car. Loud exaust and putting blue dots in your tail lights.
Couldn't tunnel your tail lights because they had to be seen from the side.

Drag racing was always a biggy. Now it's called street racing. The muscle car era where they pulled you over and did a 'safty check" so you could show them everything worked on the car. That lost it's sense of fun the 6th or 7th time it happened in one night. Happened even more if you built a hot rod.

So it will be everyones turn to get pulled over and stopped if you have a china girl on your bicycle. When they have forced every one to use e-bikes then they will be on to the next, no, you can't do that.

Steve.
 
Howdy Rays
I have done my research for Nova Scotia before I start dumping money into the project that I am about to start. Here is how the law stands here.

Motor Vehicle Act
Motor Vehicle Act

c) "bicycle" means

(i) a vehicle propelled by human power upon which or in which a person may ride and that has two tandem wheels either of which is 350 millimetres or more in diameter or that has four wheels any two of which are 350 millimetres or more in diameter but does not include a wheelchair, or

(ii) a vehicle propelled by human and mechanical power that is fitted with pedals that are operable at all times to propel the bicycle, that has the same wheel requirements as set out in subclause (i) and that has an attached motor driven by electricity not producing more than 500 watts or with a piston displacement of not more than 50 cubic centimetres and is incapable of providing further assistance when the vehicle attains a speed of thirty kilometres per hour on level ground;

So as long as I am wearing a bike helmet and don't let a cop see me driving more than 19 mph everything is ok and legal.
 
trail-r-boy said:
Howdy Rays
I have done my research for Nova Scotia before I start dumping money into the project that I am about to start. Here is how the law stands here.

Motor Vehicle Act
Motor Vehicle Act

c) "bicycle" means

(i) a vehicle propelled by human power upon which or in which a person may ride and that has two tandem wheels either of which is 350 millimetres or more in diameter or that has four wheels any two of which are 350 millimetres or more in diameter but does not include a wheelchair, or

(ii) a vehicle propelled by human and mechanical power that is fitted with pedals that are operable at all times to propel the bicycle, that has the same wheel requirements as set out in subclause (i) and that has an attached motor driven by electricity not producing more than 500 watts or with a piston displacement of not more than 50 cubic centimetres and is incapable of providing further assistance when the vehicle attains a speed of thirty kilometres per hour on level ground;

So as long as I am wearing a bike helmet and don't let a cop see me driving more than 19 mph everything is ok and legal.
Click to expand...

Very cool I'm glad for you. Why can't the rest of Canada be so sensible?
SB
 
One of the great things I love about living in this area that I do, is that nobody cares! This is the land of chainsaws and Quads. My kids can ride there mini bikes to their friends house without any worries. This is a far cry from where I just came from. I moved to the Nova Scotia Countryside 6 months from Santa Ana in So Cal. There, the neighbors would give you the look every time they road up and down the street on the minibike.
 
I live in Oshawa which is a fair size city, very close to Toronto. There are many more of these gas powered bicycles seen here this year and the police here continue to regard these toys as a regular bicycle. We are even allowed to ride them on our walking trails where bikes are allowed. No helmets required if 16 up.
 
trail-r-boy, glad to hear you are enjoying yourself up here. I wrote you when you were just getting ready to move and you had a trailer up for sale and mentioned you were moving to N.S.
Looking into moving to P.E.I. myself this summer.

Before you dump a lot of money into the bike, the Federal laws which come before Provincial laws say you cannot put a gas motor on a bicycle. You may be ok in Nova Scotia, since as you said, they have a more laid back attitude about things like that but be aware that you can be up for charges for being in control of an unlicenced, uninsured, unregistered motor vehicle. Provincial laws control the charges and fines ect. Federal laws set the standards.

Steve.
 
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