"kindalikeawhizzer"

[silverbear]

I appreciate all the support you guys. Most of what I need is of the moral kind.

Was just looking at BarelyAWakes thread with pictures and video of the Maine rally. Boy, that looks like fun and makes me envious, wanting to meet up with other bike guys and maybe go for a ride with others. I hope it can work out when Steve (Fasteddy) comes down from B.C. to summer bike camp here in the border lake country and then I hitch a ride with him out to the east coast. Along the way we would try to meet up with Jim & the Prussian Shop Dogs if it works out for them and then have an opportunity for Tinsmith and Fasteddy to meet when I get dropped off in Maryland. Hoping the three of us can work in a nice ride through Maryland farm country, Steve on his just finished Indian tri-car, Dan on his stretch Worksman and me & Moosh on the American Flyer with sidecar. Then Steve goes on up to New Hampshire to visit his son while I arrange for turning over ownership of my 51 Spartan Aircraft trailer and visit with my daughter and grand kids in Baltimore. Then Steve picks me up on the return trip to here again. Whew. Lotta driving. The only sketchy part is that Steve's mom has been in and out of the hospital lately and at a hundred years old that's a worrisome thing. I wish her well and Steve, too.

Ray, I envy you guys in California with your endless riding season and opportunities to get together with others to meet over common interests, share stories and bike lore, & go for group rides. Boy that sounds like fun. I think Dale goes for group rides with Whizzermen and other Briggs Boys out your way. I don't foresee ever getting to the west coast unless I rode me motorbike all the way there from Minnesota. I'd need a butt transplant if I tried that. I can ride with you guys in spirit anyway. Woohoo!
SB

 

[RicksRides]

Just found this post, SB. Glad to see youre going to get some use out of that engine i sold you. Mock up looks good. I'll be following your progress
Rick

 

[mason_man]

Thanks SB, there is always something going on here. I haven't gotten with most of the group of riders or events lately. last one was a Blast.
mostly solo rides, testing some of my tweaks, or my buddy Bob and i will ride the whizzers down to Fullerton airport for some lunch.

Dale has done way more than i have. once I'm able to, I'm gonna ask if i can roll with them.

It sounds like you've got a pretty good Road Trip ahead of you with lots of adventures.
This Forum is a great place to share our knowledge, stories and friendship.

Riding in the spirit, I like that.

Thanks,
Ray

 

[silverbear]

A couple of updates...
Sorry to say there will be no trip east this fall. Steve's mom has been in and out of the hospital and at 102 that is telling on her family. At last report she is doing better and coming home again, so that's good, but it is no time for Steve to be taking off on a long road trip... which is a great disappointment. We had more bike building projects lined up than we could have finished, a great fishing trip into the Boundary Waters (Basswood Lake) and a road trip which would have met up with The Prussian Shop Dogs on the way out, some time spent with Tinsmith in Maryland and meeting up with Mr B. on the return leg. It wasn't to be, I guess. Next year we'll budget more time for traveling and less for building over a longer period of time.

Once I realized that I would not be in Maryland to pick up the 51 Schwinn frame from Tinsmith I thought I'd take a look on ebay to avoid asking Dan to send the frame... (hassle). And I found one, also a 51 which had some welding repair work done at the bottom bracket where the front tube connects. That would cancel interest from collectors and I figured it could be re-welded if need be or even a couple of gussets welded in to beef up the union. The frame will be getting engine mount welds anyway. The opening bid of $10.00 sat there without a bid so I left a sniping bid of $40.00 ($35.00 shipping). The bidding ended while I was fishing on Basswood and when I got home a few days ago I discovered that I had lost by another $15.00. Who knows what the winning bidder would have gone to. I've looked for another frame which my copper tank will fit and there's nothing at this time...so I have asked Dan (Tinsmith) to send his off when he can. He will do so and when it comes I'll assemble wheels, fork and tank for an initial mock-up to start figuring out how the engine will go. Steve is going to send the engine mounts when the dust settles up his way and Chain is sending out the sheave and some belts. When I have something to take a picture of I'll post it here.
SB

 

[msrfan]

Hey silverbear, too bad about the frame. I can give you some help on your slipper clutch setup if you need it. The Whizzer engineers figured out the dimensions and configuration of the clutch swing arm in relation to the engine and rear wheel that works very well. A Whizzer engine block is cast with the pivot built in at the correct position for a smooth engagement. The idea is when you pull the clutch lever, the jackshaft pulleys swing down and forward, releasing tension on both belts at the same time. The pivot can be added to the frame as the engine you're using has none. The center of the crankshaft pulley measures 6 1/2'' to the center of the pivot and the clutch pulley is 2 1/2'' farther out from the pivot. So when all the centers are aligned, the crank center is 9'' from the clutch center. Also the pivot center is 4'' above the crank center making the clutch pulleys above the crank and rear wheel pulley. A belt guard in necessary to keep the primary belt from laying on the engine pulley and grabbing. When everything is adjusted correctly, the bike won't creep forward with the clutch lever pulled and you will have total disengagement. It is recommended to pedal assist when taking off so the belt won't squeal. If you're somewhere in these parameters, you should have a good working slipper clutch. I've ridden a lot of miles using this system before I installed the automatic and it worked great. The primary pulleys are 2.5'' to 5'' and the final drives are 3'' to 15'' for an overall ratio of 10:1 which works well with a 3hp Whizzer engine on a 26'' bike. All these dimensions and ratios can vary to complement your engine hp and frame size, but if you use these guidelines you won't have to experiment as much.

 

[silverbear]

msrfan,
Thank you for the detailed explanation and photos. Excellent! Once I get the bike frame and engine mounts I can start mocking things up and will see then which would be best, the slipper clutch (I had never heard of such a thing before) or going with an automatic clutch and jack shaft. With the automatic are you able to start out from a dead stop (assuming the engine is already started) or do you need to pedal assist?
SB

 

[msrfan]

No pedaling with the auto. It slips until your road speed catches up with the motor and then cools off until next takeoff. Usually very smooth and one less lever to worry about. The only thing is the Whizzer auto will have to be purchased at around $300 to $600 depending which one you can find and features pedal start, where the slipper can be fabbed up with scrounged pieces of metal and pulleys for nearly no cost. It would be a fairly easy transition from slipper to auto if you started simple. As always, the more adjustment you build into your engine mount and rear wheel, the less critical belt selection is. If your not driving stop and go in city traffic, the slipper is easy and efficient to use. Oh, I forgot to mention, Whizzers use a heavy return spring to pull the double pulley back up to tension the belts. I've made special pulley mounts that are on a gimble so it self adjusts the same tension on both belts and allows your adjustment to be close instead of having to be perfect.
Another inexpensive way to go is a modified Max Torque centrifugal clutch like Goldy made if you want a pedal start bike, or a regular cent. clutch for pull rope starting. Remember, Whizzer clutches mount on the swinging arm jackshaft and regular clutches mount on the engine.
If you decide to use pedal starting and need a compression release, there's a couple of different ways to accomplish that. If you fabricate a kick starter, you won't need a comp. release.
Anyway, lots of possibilities. The main thing is that you're building something and it's going to be crazy cool.


http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=28747&page=14

 

[msrfan]

Another thing about Whizzers is they are only about 4'' wide and the jackshaft pulleys are right next to each other. Usually any other engine is so wide that the pulleys end up with a large gap between them to align with the engine and the rear wheel. And that means the mounting may need to be more substantial than a Whizzer to keep them form getting out of alignment from all the downward belt force.

 

[silverbear]

Dale thanks for the explanation and the link to Goldy's clutch modification. You guys are so knowledgeable. Clever,innovative minds. I can't get over it sometimes...
SB

 

[silverbear]

My friend Tinsmith (Dan) sent the 51 Schwinn frame which arrived a couple of days ago. Yesterday I worked at stripping down the old paint job I had given it several years ago. Minnesota road salt sure does a number on a rattle can paint job. I really should forget about that last sloppy ride of the season which is always so tempting.

In pretty short order (maybe an hour) the side grinder with wire wheel attached had most of the paint gone. I'll do the last bit with fine sandpaper where there are hard to get to spots. Then it will get some primer to protect it while the build is under way.

I intend to use a center stand, so I removed the stock kickstand by cutting off the hardware with the side grinder with cutoff wheel, then used the grinding wheel to get the old welds down close to not being there at all and finally cleaned it up with a flap disc wheel to smooth it down. Can't say enough for how handy a few tools are in particular. One is the little rotary tool (Dremel), another is a side grinder and the third is a mig welder. You can do a lot of fabrication with just these three tools. Most expensive is the welder. Rotary tool and side grinder are about the same at Harbor Freight... twenty to thirty bucks.

I clamped the seat post in a vice to give me good hands free access and went at it. I cut the stand hardware off a chunk at a time rather than going after the welds. Don't want to damage the bike frame.
(cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

I've shown photos of the different discs mentioned for those new to this stuff. Also the wire wheel used to remove paint & surface rust. I much prefer it to chemicals.

Now the frame is cleaned up enough to proceed. I found a 1960's three speed girls Schwinn at the dump recently which has already donated the seat and seat post clamp to the build. Removed a head tube bearing cup to replace a rusty one on the 51 and will remove the pedal crank, cups and bearings. The frame looks good with the copper gas tank in place... I like it!

Next up is to spread the frame at the dropouts to widen it a bit for the wider Atom drum brake hub. Hope to do that today. Then I'll decide which center stand to rob from a donor. Have one on a light Harley Davidson 2 stroke motorcycle frame, another on what's left of a Honda 55 trail bike and one on a Schwinn Stingray I found at the dump a couple of weeks ago. The Schwinn stand would be the easiest to remove and install on the 51, but I hesitate as that means goodbye to the Stingray frame. Whichever stand I use I will probably need to extend the legs, by how much to be determined by how it sits with the wheels mounted. Having a stand helps during the rest of the build. I'd do a rear drop stand, but they no longer used them in the 1950's which is the look I want. More later when I've done more.
SB

 

[silverbear]

I've shown three possible donors for the center stand. First is a Schwinn Stingray frame I found at the dump a couple of weeks ago. This would be the easiest to remove and affix to my 51. Second is from a light motorcycle and third is from a Honda 55 trail bike.

In order to make the dropouts wide enough apart for the Atom drum brake hub they need to be spread. I used a section of all thread with nuts and washers to accomplish this. Simple procedure. Now they are just right, but need to have the slots opened up just a hair more for the axle to slide in easily. A file will do it or the dremel or the side grinder with a light touch.

(cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

Photos show the frame with wheels in place. Slots for the rear axle still need to be opened up a bit. Front fork has no bearings or spacers yet. Tomorrow I'll look though my stuff and find spacers, etc.

With the wheels in place I measured the distance from the ground to the spot where the center stand will go and the stand from the Stingray is just right. Another project for tomorrow.
SB

 

[msrfan]

Nice work SB. Has a great look. I had one of those little Hondas a few years back and parted it out on ebay. Every little piece was a different auction. I made several hundred bucks form a carcass. They're very collectable.

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

My bike frame in the below album 60's ish JC Penney Foremost, probably made by Schwinn back then looks close to your great dumpster diving. I got mine the same way. One day I have to clean the rust and paint it.

I just notice you have a little more curve on the down tube that goes lower. Go for a 5hp 4 stroke. Actually what ever you got, but the custom fit tank is quite nice!

http://motorbicycling.com/member.php?u=22772

Changed above link, anyway it is my home page showing in albums

 

[silverbear]

Measure,
The link doesn't work.
The Schwinn cantilever frame is fairly roomy and the 5 hsp Briggs can be squeezed in there. MSRfan's builds use this frame. I wanted to use a smaller looking engine to draw less attention to myself from the powers that be, so I'm using a 147cc Jacobsen 2 stroke which should produce power in the range of the Whizzer engine while looking like it could conceivably be 50cc providing you have no idea what you're looking at. Ha!

Tinsmith made the copper gas tank with a little help from me. Glad you like it.
SB

 

[silverbear]

Nice work SB. Has a great look. I had one of those little Hondas a few years back and parted it out on ebay. Every little piece was a different auction. I made several hundred bucks form a carcass. They're very collectable.

I like the look, too. The in frame tank helps to keep the lines flowing, I think.

I may go ahead and dismantle the Honda 55 to see what I can sell. The engine is frozen up, but all there. I already robbed the front hub for my bike with the canoe sidecar. Did you just use ebay or is there a site for Honda stuff? I paid $15.00 for it.
SB

 

[msrfan]

I like the look, too. The in frame tank helps to keep the lines flowing, I think.

I may go ahead and dismantle the Honda 55 to see what I can sell. The engine is frozen up, but all there. I already robbed the front hub for my bike with the canoe sidecar. Did you just use ebay or is there a site for Honda stuff? I paid $15.00 for it.
SB

You know, there may be a Honda step through forum, but I just used ebay. I always clean up all parts before I list them because if there's more listed besides mine, I get the bids.

 

[silverbear]

One step forward, then one back and a second step forward on the other foot.

I cut out the center stand from the donor Schwinn Stingray , ground the metal to size and fit it under the bike frame in the extended position and it was perfect. Just need to make a top piece for above the frame, drill a hole and bolt it in place. It left the tire an inch off the ground. Woo hoo!

Then I checked it in the folded position and it is too narrow for the fatty tire (2.4" Cyclops). Back to the drawing board. I looked over the other two possible donors and they are just all wrong. It would take a lot of fabrication including welding in order to make one of them work. Not worth it.

I resigned myself to spending money by ordering one when I remembered that I had an experimental rear drop stand I made out of copper pipe for a 1934 Elgin some years ago... did some looking and found it. Bolted it on and it works OK, certainly well enough during the build process. If I like it well enough later I'll keep it and if not will come up with something else.

The Stingray center stand will find a home on another bike.with normal tires.
SB

 

[silverbear]

It is at this stage of a build that the lawn chair becomes an important "tool". That is for the essential "creative staring" with a cup of coffee... just looking at the bike once it has wheels on the frame and is upright. Looking at the lines, deciding things like handlebars, whether or not to give it fenders, rear rack, seat position and that sort of thing. I like a rear rack and have modified these old Wald over the front wheel racks before, using them behind the seat. They are sturdy and on the small side. They looked good with a cylindrical gas tank or tool box tucked in behind the seat. If this bike gets a sidecar I won't need a rack, but if it doesn't a small tool bag or box or cylinder is nice to have to tuck away a few tools and a large roll of hundred dollar bills.

The hole in the mounting hardware which fit under the front fork head works originally also slides nicely over the seat post and will stay in place with the seat post clamp directly above it. Two legs extend down to fender mounting holes near the dropouts to make it secure. I needed to take out the major curve in the rack so placed it in a vice and cranked it down, one side at a time. Now I set it on the bike to see how it looks and whether or not it needs more bending. The legs are sitting on top of the axle bolts so the back of the rack will actually sit a little lower. Should be level then and if not a bit of bending will fix that.

I also have the seat sitting more or less where I want it. Maybe not quite so far back. I have yet to make up the seat post. I have an idea, but don't know how well it will work. Whenever I can avoid it I'd rather not spend money since there isn't much to work with. One of the original goals with this build was to end up with good quality, but on a pretty tight budget. We're still at $250.00 at this point.

Next up is to fit a crank set & pedals before sitting the engine in the frame... try to get an idea early on for clearance issues. I'm looking forward to seeing the engine zip tied into position. Then I can give Fasteddy some measurements and he can cut off the engine mount he has made up and is sending me. I'll do the final cutting, but he wants to be sure it is long enough. Since it will be welded to the frame it needs to be right the first time.
SB