Im new to the forum & had to ask. Turbo + Meth Injection.
- Thread starter 05lgt
- Start date
Bikeguy Joe
Godfather of Motorized Bicycles
Huh?
.
.
.
.
.
.
scotto-
Custom 4-Stroke Bike Builder
I removed the windshield from my bike so I no longer use wiper fluid. I think I used to mix it 50/50 though.
No engine yet. I'm still researching.
I hate the "ring ding ding" of a 2 stroke. I am looking for a 4 stroke. 4 strokes can also be modified quite a bit.
I won't get into details, but wiper fluid is extremely popular throughout the forums, especially Nasioc (north american subaru impreza owners club). It is rare to see people run it w/ issues from the wiper fluid itself. It is no theory. Dyno map said I could easily hit 450AWHP with meth or ethanol. I'm at a conservative 320 now on 93. -But yes, I am looking to boost the octane.
I see a few 2 stroke kits stating "top speed 36mph." It's hilly around town, & I want the ability to cruise w/ ease up slopes.
I'm just wondering if anyones done it, & what kind of performance gains they've had.
I hate the "ring ding ding" of a 2 stroke. I am looking for a 4 stroke. 4 strokes can also be modified quite a bit.
I won't get into details, but wiper fluid is extremely popular throughout the forums, especially Nasioc (north american subaru impreza owners club). It is rare to see people run it w/ issues from the wiper fluid itself. It is no theory. Dyno map said I could easily hit 450AWHP with meth or ethanol. I'm at a conservative 320 now on 93. -But yes, I am looking to boost the octane.
I see a few 2 stroke kits stating "top speed 36mph." It's hilly around town, & I want the ability to cruise w/ ease up slopes.
I'm just wondering if anyones done it, & what kind of performance gains they've had.
Last edited:
maurtis
New Member
I think most tend to smoke or snort their Meth, injection is pretty hardcore...
You mentioned turbo in your subject line, but not in the thread itself. As you probably know, boosting the octane with meth without doing anything else will not do a doggone thing for power, you have to boost the compression too, which is why I assume you meant to ask about turbos as well?
So if you are asking who here has a turbo 4 stroke bicycle with meth injection, I would say we are all waiting for you!
You mentioned turbo in your subject line, but not in the thread itself. As you probably know, boosting the octane with meth without doing anything else will not do a doggone thing for power, you have to boost the compression too, which is why I assume you meant to ask about turbos as well?
So if you are asking who here has a turbo 4 stroke bicycle with meth injection, I would say we are all waiting for you!
LOL, Tell that to every gas station in Colorado. I've had to run ethanol based fuel in every 2 stroke I've had. Never had a problem. Motorbikes, trimmers, snow blowers, all seem to do just fine with the exception of the rubber fuel lines which have a short life when used with ethanol.
Tom
Last edited:
Ethenol isn't a bad thing by itself. Rather that the engines aren't built to handle it. In go-kart racing (something I did a long time ago when I was a teenager) they have extremely high power to weight ratio 2-cycle engines that run on pure (100% absolutely no water content) alcohol mixed with castro bean oil that go like crazy and have extremely high compression ratios. It's just that those engines and the carburetors on them are built to run on alcohol and it will mess them up bad if you try to run them on petroleum.
With fuel injection instead of a carburetor it is entirely possible to build engines that run just as well on alcohol as gasoline or just about any mix of the two but small engines that have fuel injection systems rather then carburetors are a rarity at best right now. Give it another decade or so for the technology to catch up and hopefully there will be a lot of 25-50cc size 4-cycle weed-eater type motors out there that have injectors rather then carburetors that we can use gas with up to about 30% alcohol content without problems or even more if they put the flex-fuel software onto them.
Alcohol is good stuff (and not just for fuel) it is just that if your going to use it in your engine as fuel you need to understand that it does not burn exactly the same way that gas does and if your engine is made for gas both the compression ratio and the fuel mixture will not be ideal for alcohol and vic-a-versa. In addition some types of rubber and plastics used for hoses and gaskets and stuff don't do well with alcohol and vic-a-versa some that are just fine with alcohol don't do well with petroleum products. If your going to use mixed fuel or you want to use both fuels then your engine and all its components need to be designed to work with both.
Alcohol as a fuel isn't the problem (it is infact a superior fuel if used in an engine specifically designed to use it) its that they are trying to use it in an engine that isn't designed to use it and is intended for gas only.
Once you realize that even 96/4 alcohol that has as much of the water distilled out of it as is possible using the distilling process without having to do a second step process to get the last 4% of water out of it is 108-octane which is a hotter fuel then anything you can buy at a regular gas station and is right up there with high performance aviation fuel you start to realize that the stuff isn't bad stuff at all provided your engine is set up to use it. That of course doesn't even take into account that alcohol has a higher vapor pressure, faster burn rate, and a cooler flame temperature then gasoline. The higher vapor pressure means that it atomizes quicker and more completely in a shorter period of time which means more complete combustion and a higher RPM threshold before richening of the mix is required to compensate for incomplete fuel/air mixing before ignition. The faster burn rate means a higher percentage of the fuel is burned faster in the combustion chamber which translates to more power with less ignition advance being required at higher RPMs. All this while still having a cooler flame temperature which means the engine runs cooler and won't overheat as easily.
Alcohol in its pure form is a darn good fuel it is just unfortionatly not nearly as readily available as gasoline which is why there aren't any (that I know of) bike motors built to specifically run on alcohol and alcohol only. Yes, one could probably figure out how to make a high performance alcohol and castro bean oil burning go-kart engine work on a bike but it would cost you a cool $1,000 alone for a used one of those motors and making it work with the larger diameter tires our bikes use would require multiple stage reduction since those engines run at very high RPMs and spin small diameter go-kart tires at much higher RPMs then we use on our bike wheels. Then of course you wouldn't be able to just fuel up at a gas station but would have to buy high grade alcohol and castro bean oil and mix it yourself at home in the proper ratio just like the guys who race high end performance go-karts do.
With fuel injection instead of a carburetor it is entirely possible to build engines that run just as well on alcohol as gasoline or just about any mix of the two but small engines that have fuel injection systems rather then carburetors are a rarity at best right now. Give it another decade or so for the technology to catch up and hopefully there will be a lot of 25-50cc size 4-cycle weed-eater type motors out there that have injectors rather then carburetors that we can use gas with up to about 30% alcohol content without problems or even more if they put the flex-fuel software onto them.
Alcohol is good stuff (and not just for fuel) it is just that if your going to use it in your engine as fuel you need to understand that it does not burn exactly the same way that gas does and if your engine is made for gas both the compression ratio and the fuel mixture will not be ideal for alcohol and vic-a-versa. In addition some types of rubber and plastics used for hoses and gaskets and stuff don't do well with alcohol and vic-a-versa some that are just fine with alcohol don't do well with petroleum products. If your going to use mixed fuel or you want to use both fuels then your engine and all its components need to be designed to work with both.
Alcohol as a fuel isn't the problem (it is infact a superior fuel if used in an engine specifically designed to use it) its that they are trying to use it in an engine that isn't designed to use it and is intended for gas only.
Once you realize that even 96/4 alcohol that has as much of the water distilled out of it as is possible using the distilling process without having to do a second step process to get the last 4% of water out of it is 108-octane which is a hotter fuel then anything you can buy at a regular gas station and is right up there with high performance aviation fuel you start to realize that the stuff isn't bad stuff at all provided your engine is set up to use it. That of course doesn't even take into account that alcohol has a higher vapor pressure, faster burn rate, and a cooler flame temperature then gasoline. The higher vapor pressure means that it atomizes quicker and more completely in a shorter period of time which means more complete combustion and a higher RPM threshold before richening of the mix is required to compensate for incomplete fuel/air mixing before ignition. The faster burn rate means a higher percentage of the fuel is burned faster in the combustion chamber which translates to more power with less ignition advance being required at higher RPMs. All this while still having a cooler flame temperature which means the engine runs cooler and won't overheat as easily.
Alcohol in its pure form is a darn good fuel it is just unfortionatly not nearly as readily available as gasoline which is why there aren't any (that I know of) bike motors built to specifically run on alcohol and alcohol only. Yes, one could probably figure out how to make a high performance alcohol and castro bean oil burning go-kart engine work on a bike but it would cost you a cool $1,000 alone for a used one of those motors and making it work with the larger diameter tires our bikes use would require multiple stage reduction since those engines run at very high RPMs and spin small diameter go-kart tires at much higher RPMs then we use on our bike wheels. Then of course you wouldn't be able to just fuel up at a gas station but would have to buy high grade alcohol and castro bean oil and mix it yourself at home in the proper ratio just like the guys who race high end performance go-karts do.
Last edited:
Turbo1889: Thanks much. Assume I were to use a 49CC 4 stroke (maybe 2 stroke) as a host. What would you do to increase performance? Bore it out, & leave it or... Assume I were shooting for mid 40's (mph). I'd like to cruise at 30's, but it's hilly around town.
EDIT: Did some more research. You can't bore these engines out? Ghey.
Like many states, motorized bicycles do not require registration (as long as the bicycle is under 50cc). -If I were to get pulled over, how would the officer check? Are these engine kits marked? I'm getting the impression that these motors can't be bored or modified for reliability. Why not just head w/ more cc's. I just wonder if I can pull it off using a 50cc+ motor & stating that it's a genuine 49cc motor. hmm...
Wiper fluid is just as readily available as gasoline. I have direct a access to an Ethanol plant (gotta love the midwest). Actually, I believe there's a few farmers out here who make their own shine. I'm pretty sure w/ a permit, you're allowed to produce up to 10k gallons a yr for private use.
NW Montana eh? Kalispel/Missoula/Eureka?
EDIT: Did some more research. You can't bore these engines out? Ghey.
Like many states, motorized bicycles do not require registration (as long as the bicycle is under 50cc). -If I were to get pulled over, how would the officer check? Are these engine kits marked? I'm getting the impression that these motors can't be bored or modified for reliability. Why not just head w/ more cc's. I just wonder if I can pull it off using a 50cc+ motor & stating that it's a genuine 49cc motor. hmm...
Wiper fluid is just as readily available as gasoline. I have direct a access to an Ethanol plant (gotta love the midwest). Actually, I believe there's a few farmers out here who make their own shine. I'm pretty sure w/ a permit, you're allowed to produce up to 10k gallons a yr for private use.
NW Montana eh? Kalispel/Missoula/Eureka?
Last edited:
To be absolutely honest I think if I really wanted to build the ultimate power house bike motor to run on an alcohol mix I would have to start from scratch. Theoretically you could take a stock motor and shave the head to increase the compression and then rebuild and re-tune the carb and adjust the timing slightly but it wouldn't gain you a whole lot with these motors especially the generic china girls. If you already had your own still out in the back of your barn and just wanted to convert one so you wouldn't have to buy gas then it would probably be worth it.
But if you are truly interested in power and power alone and using alcohol based fuel and other additives is means to that goal rather then the end goal. Well you would probably be best served by building from the ground up. There is a unique type of 2-cycle engine which works very, very well with a super-charger. It is known as an "Opposed Piston Engine" (OP engine) which is almost always supercharged because it works so well with a super-charger. It's most classic layout is in a equatorial triangle arrangement with three cranks at the three corners and three long cylinders making the three sides with two pistons in each cylinder at each end such that each crank has two pistons attached to it with a supercharger in the middle of the triangle crammed in between the cylinders surrounding it with a center gear on the supercharger that serves as the common output shaft that is meshed with a gear on each crank. Obviously if made the right size considering the resulting engine is triangular shaped it could fit in the frame triangle of a bike like a hand in a glove. With a large center gear on the supercharger and common output shaft and small gears on the cranks they put out a lot of torque at fairly low RPMs which when combined with their compact size for power output and smooth fairly quiet running made them ideal for use in submarines and almost every US submarine since WWII up until they went to nuclear power was powered by that kind of engine. One of those forgotten technologies that if properly scaled and applied would make one heck of a bike motor especially if combined with modern fuel injection technology.
Anyway, I mainly posted to dispel the common rumor that alcohol is some kind of evil nasty additive they are trying to mess us over with by adding it to the gas. The motors we are using just need to catch up to the present technology level. Basically the motor technology level used in the size of motors we are using on our bikes hasn't gone beyond the 70's at best and possibly all the way back to the 30's for the generic china girls. Sometimes simplicity is good but other times it is nice to catch up with the rest of the world and enjoy the perks that come with it like having something built to run the fuel that comes out of a regular pump in its current formulation rather then something that the last time they sold the kind of fuel blend out of a regular pump that would be ideal for it to run was before the current graduating class was even born.
But if you are truly interested in power and power alone and using alcohol based fuel and other additives is means to that goal rather then the end goal. Well you would probably be best served by building from the ground up. There is a unique type of 2-cycle engine which works very, very well with a super-charger. It is known as an "Opposed Piston Engine" (OP engine) which is almost always supercharged because it works so well with a super-charger. It's most classic layout is in a equatorial triangle arrangement with three cranks at the three corners and three long cylinders making the three sides with two pistons in each cylinder at each end such that each crank has two pistons attached to it with a supercharger in the middle of the triangle crammed in between the cylinders surrounding it with a center gear on the supercharger that serves as the common output shaft that is meshed with a gear on each crank. Obviously if made the right size considering the resulting engine is triangular shaped it could fit in the frame triangle of a bike like a hand in a glove. With a large center gear on the supercharger and common output shaft and small gears on the cranks they put out a lot of torque at fairly low RPMs which when combined with their compact size for power output and smooth fairly quiet running made them ideal for use in submarines and almost every US submarine since WWII up until they went to nuclear power was powered by that kind of engine. One of those forgotten technologies that if properly scaled and applied would make one heck of a bike motor especially if combined with modern fuel injection technology.
Anyway, I mainly posted to dispel the common rumor that alcohol is some kind of evil nasty additive they are trying to mess us over with by adding it to the gas. The motors we are using just need to catch up to the present technology level. Basically the motor technology level used in the size of motors we are using on our bikes hasn't gone beyond the 70's at best and possibly all the way back to the 30's for the generic china girls. Sometimes simplicity is good but other times it is nice to catch up with the rest of the world and enjoy the perks that come with it like having something built to run the fuel that comes out of a regular pump in its current formulation rather then something that the last time they sold the kind of fuel blend out of a regular pump that would be ideal for it to run was before the current graduating class was even born.
bigbutterbean
Active Member
05lgt, there are proven performance mods that will probably do a lot more for your engine than windshield wiper fluid. at the least, if you are trying to use methanol to increase compressibility of the fuel (am I understanding that correctly?), then a high compression head will be the way to go. However, I would caution you to make use of all the available mods before trying the wiper fluid. there are plenty of mods available that will make a 2 stroke much more powerful. the high comp head, reed valves (which require boost porting for full effectiveness), and expansion chambers are all great, proven mods for 2 stroke engines, and may nearly double its power. none of us here know what windshield wiper fluid will do to a small engine, be it 2 stroke or 4 stroke.