How to shove my shaft into a tight bearing

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Makomea

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Jul 9, 2023
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I am having some difficulty getting the measurements set up (properly setup). I can’t for the life of me find my clamps, the washer in the center of the sprocket is preventing central placement so I can align the straight edge along the same axis as the seat tube so I had to remove the bolt all together. I would just lay the bike on its side and let gravity help hold the sprockets flush to the shaft, but the motor is full of oil and the frame full of gas. I’m in my apartment, this could cause a slight issue. I’ll have to wait for my neighbor to get home. He has a set of clamps I can use. Thank you very much for the diagram @Venice Motor Bikes , I will make it happen one way or another. I know it’s not a hard or complicated request, I am just having issues holding things without movement to give the most accurate information.
 
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Makomea

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Hmmm “Interesting”. Do you guys know what “Flat Earth” is? There is an abnormally huge amount of people who think we live on a perfectly level, flat plane rather than on our oblate spheroid called Earth. There is a guy that runs a YouTube channel named “jeranism”. He was going to prove the world was flat by running a simple experiment by shining a light between two holes, both at sea level with a camera raised to level with the first hole and his buddy shining a light at a certain distance behind the second hole. It’s an “interesting” video, you should check it out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/sjeoqd
I think I understand that man’s pain now.

The setup shows maybe a tiny discrepancy in alignment but no where near what I am seeing vs clutch. Perhaps I am doing something wrong in measuring or perhaps I owe truffle-nutz an apology? He was still an ass, but I may very well have been wrong.
 

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Makomea

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@fasteddy I hear you. I don’t know how phatmoto, gasbike, and kings are related to each other. That guy’s experience sounds rough! I again can’t personally write the guy off though. I’ve been in business before, I know things get messed up and mostly due to miscommunication and preconceptions on both parties. Seller always thinks the guy calling is trying to get something for nothing, and the caller thinks he is getting nothing from everything. It’s why I can’t be too mad at the guy. I don’t think he is intentionally trying to rip me off, not at all. There is a level of miscommunication though that stems from gasbike’s online chat agents to the technicians. The chat people are fine and they do exactly what they say they are going to do. No problem there, but the technicians patience and ability to compartmentalize the notion that my sole purpose is to get another bike is the problem. Again the guy seemed real cool at first. Like the type of guy you could get in a fist fight with, get a bit bloody, and have a couple beers with after, you know? I told him the last thing I want to do is exchange the bike. It would be nice that when I spoke to him, instead of pretending that there isn’t some kind of misalignment, we could go through a few troubleshooting options. Kinda similar to what he did after he started loosing his calm as explained in my first post, just without the sarcasm and demeaning attitude. ****, The conversation that made him loose his cool in the first place I didn’t even call them, they called me ROFL. If the guy would just send the damaged and missing items/replacements that I requested 3 times now over two weeks, I would say he is at least trying. If the guy continues to stonewall and not send the parts, then it’s just him being more than an ass for what ever reason, it shows he is actively preventing any kind of warranty support. He said they don’t have just a frame, well poo the bed, just the frame is being sold on gasbike.net right now. Something somewhere is out of whack, and I’m more than happy to try anything. I have had 10x more support, suggestions, and advice from this forum than I have received from the actual “technician” over there. Only thing dude suggested was a clutch spacer. Yeah that would keep the chain off the clutch but that would not fix the twisted chain alignment. Any talk of chain alignment between clutch and jackshaft would send him into a semi fit. He knows I have 0 experience with this, so things he may think are obvious or take for granted in terms of problems/solutions are not readily apparent to me or anyone else that has never built a bike kit before.


Bonus Pictures:
 

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Venice Motor Bikes

Custom Builder / Dealer/Los Angeles
Mar 20, 2008
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Very good... So far the jackshaft looks straight enough!!

Here's the next pics you need to take... (looking down from above the bike).
There's nothing to really measure to this time, but we need to see if the straight edge follows the general centerline of the entire bike.

Also do these same two tests with the face of the clutch so we can see if the engine could be the problem.

straightedge top.jpg
 
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Makomea

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Alrighty Gents, I have a couple updates for ya. I’ve been busy last few days and haven’t had much free time. I did however rig the motor up so I could finally test ride her! Woot! That was fun. I had just finished putting on the clutch dust cover along with its spacers to allow more airflow (like the manual suggested). On the right side of the bike, I had to use around 4 washers as spacers on both of the right side motor feet to make the motor literally tilt to the left so I could get a decent chain alignment. I don’t know how safe this is. Something is still wonky. After doing that measurement @Venice Motor Bikes suggested the first time, I had lost a bit of morale. It really looked so jacked up looking down the chain line. It really looks like the sprocket is tilted compared to the engine plane. Another problem that I found someone having was that the motor mount it’s self is what was welded improperly and another guy who had a centered motor mount was “crowned” where both sides of the mount was lower from the edges compared to the center. Both of them, the forum posts ended without resolution nor updates. I think they were the older, original versions of the phatmoto though. I have no idea why it is all janky and wonky. I just know that after I “aligned” everything, and put the dust cover on, I was excited to find the chain no longer rubbed the precut chain port, but now my crank pedals are colliding with the front portion because I had to lean the engine so far left. Haha! As soon as I fix something, a new problem arises. I’ll post a few pics. If you still need that straight edge measurement from the sprocket to the rear, I’ll get it real quick. I need to take the chain guard off again anyways. >_<.

Oh yeah, in regards to Gasbike itself, it looks like the guy at least sent out the missing mirrors. Looks like he ordered a kit from Amazon and shipped them to me. So, progress? It may be that the mount is displaced. It is biased to the right by 2.5 millimeters vs the left side only having 1mm and a half. Maybe it isn’t level with the bike? I wished I had a couple of those “Spirit” gauges. The ones where you can use an air bubble in liquid to find the level. I have no way of holding the bike straight up and down securely nor do I have the levels to show inclination. Whole thing is a nightmare still.
 

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Tom from Rubicon

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So what has your sister done about this defective machine?
Sorry to be so direct, it is the curmudgeon in me.

If your washer piles are going to be OK with you. Prove it by walking the bike forward and backward to ensure that your creatively corrected chain line is true and the chain doesn't walk off. Then weld the washer piles to the engine mounting plate. This will not correct the chain line to the wheel sprocket.

Disregard the above paragraph if your sister is able to get a exchange.

Tom
 

curtisfox

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Dec 29, 2008
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One thing I know is your engine can't go unsupported like this without something braking, and you maybe get pedal clearance by a few more washers all the way around. o welding anything till you are satisfied on final settings..............Curt
I forgot the picture.
1691633625647.png
 
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Venice Motor Bikes

Custom Builder / Dealer/Los Angeles
Mar 20, 2008
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I'd still like to see the straight edge on the clutch pictures & I'm also very curious to know if the engine mount plate is truly not level (& square with the frame)?

I did a little searching around on YouTube & found that there's supposed to be a small shim behind the clutch to line the chain up with the offset jackshaft that's required for the extra wide tires on this bike... I can see that he already has the correct offset jackshaft.

Another test is putting a straightedge on the jackshaft sprocket going forward to the clutch to see if the two sprockets are in line with each other?... (so a shim behind the clutch might still fix the chain rub on the clutch)??

I know stuff happens... but this is very baffling because I know that all frames are made in 'jigs' that lock each part perfectly into place before welding. :/
 

Venice Motor Bikes

Custom Builder / Dealer/Los Angeles
Mar 20, 2008
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Los Angeles, CA.
This still looks like the jackshaft is not welded in right, never should have to tip a motor that far...........Curt
I agree that the pictures look like the jackshaft is 'off'... but the straight edge measurements actually showed that it's pretty straight.

This is one of those mysteries that most of us could probably solve in 2- minutes if we just had the bike in front of us! :(
 

Tom from Rubicon

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(Quote) "I know stuff happens... but this is very baffling because I know that all frames are made in 'jigs' that lock each part perfectly into place before welding."

Norm, I don't know your background.

Weld fixtures are at the outset only as good as the fixture builder made them. Fixtures can only maintain weldment location to a certain point. Weld shrinkage has to be factored in as a weldment is welded.
Bike frame tubes are generally smaller than the weld joint. Lots of stress. The very reason better built bikes and motorcycles for years were brazed lug jointed frame assemblies.
Two snow plow blade fixtures. right and left before the air cylinder clamps had been fitted.
1691640004820.jpeg
 

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Makomea

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@Tom from Rubicon, I don’t think anyone could be too direct with me, my friend. Even if I was a wittle snowflake, you guys above all have earned the right to ask anything at any time and you will get honesty and appreciation in return for the asking.

I asked her to hold off. I told her about the jackshaft measure test, that maybe I am doing something wrong Wether or not the Gasbike Technician is willing to listen, how can I simply and concisely explain what is wrong with the bike if I do not yet know the cause. I am still holding out hope that it’s my inexperience that is causing the issue, because if that is the case, it is a fixable issue. I am also hoping it is perhaps an issue with the motor. Maybe the feet of the motor aren’t square and that’s why I am having to do these janky fixes. If it’s the frame though, I don’t know what else to do but have her go ahead do what she needs to do. For the record, I am not happy or ok at all with the washer fix, if I welded it, I’ll never be able to tighten a stretching chain, even if I don’t, like @curtisfox said, the motor can’t go unsupported like it is without breaking something. Without the dust cover, I have pedal clearance but it is still so very close to the moving clutch. (Pics included), if that chain pops mid ride, it will be painful

@Venice Motor Bikes, I will get a pic or two showing chain alignment with the leaning washer setup, and a couple afterwards. I will also get you those straight edge pics from clutch to jackshaft sprockets before (pics included) and after removal of washers (N/A). For now though, I can show you at least a straightedge from jackshaft to dropouts like your awesome diagram shows until I put the engine mounted properly. (Included also).
 

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Makomea

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I don’t know how you guys feel about “Double posting”, I’m not trying to min/max my forum statistics or anything, just unable to upload more than 10 photos. Maybe a video would be better but I don’t know how nor where to upload, or if I can with this ridiculously bad internet in my apartment. Here are some other angles before I take the jig down so I can remove the washers. If you need additional pics or angles, let me know!
 

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curtisfox

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There is something wrong with the jackshaft if you have to tilt the engine that far, I don't know the measurements read the same top and bottom, and have to tilt the motor that far. Go to the other side of the bike with a straight edge, form the seat stays down to the chain stays and take a picture, its almost as if the seat tube is not straight.............Curt
 

Makomea

Member
Jul 9, 2023
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Pikeville, Kentucky, USA
Update: As far as the bike is concerned, I attempted attach the chain guard to the clutch. Seemed fine, but, pedals collided with the bottom of the chain guard. I then attempted to remove two washers each on both sides. The chain then began to rub against the chain guard of the Hilliard clutch and the pedals Still collided with the case. I got pissed off, grabbed my Dremel rotary tool and cut out where the chain and pedals were rubbing. These are things I imagine having to deal with on a custom build, but this should not have happened on a prebuilt fully or almost fully assembled product.

As far as gasbike is concerned, and I think I got them figured out as they have the attention span of a goat on meth. You have to keep at them, one day after the next, speaking in short concise sentences and if you show them photos, be sure to use your photoshop skills to highlight the exact problem. They will only glance at the picture and if it isn’t Immediately apparent, they pretend everything looks fine. I get it, they busy warehouse. They at least sent out the missing parts and replaced the damaged parts except for the jackshaft kit which was reordered today, for the 4th week in a row…. Any mention of the frame being warped or out of alignment is quickly shutdown in the form of hanging up the phone or profusely denying the possibility that their immaculate frames arrive molested in any way. Am I saying I will never do business with them again? No, absolutely not. I think gasbike and the tech are just fine for what they do! I think the problem arises when dealing with any phatmoto purchases on their site. It’s as if they are acting as a 3rd party agent to Phatmoto on your behalf. One would just be better off buying directly from phatmoto than going through gasbike.net. As far as providing missing or replacing damaged parts, it has been immaculately handled aside from my jackshaft kit issue, which if I hear correctly is the ones having issue sending out. If a part or component from phatmoto didn’t arrive, that means you are denied BY Phatmoto, not Gasbike, for whatever arbitrary reason (e.g. not sending a photo of the issue). So, even though my overall initial experience was full of suck, just true absolute suck, it’s just miscommunication on all parties including myself. So I can’t say at all that Gasbike is 100% or even 50%. Maybe 30% +/- of the problem. They atleast honored the warranty up to but not including the frame and that is a Phatmoto issue as far as I can tell. So, if gas bike had an untarnished reputation here, don’t let me blemish it. Somebody somewhere has to draw the short straw; and that person is me! Woot! I doubt it will be you.

All in all, I guess everything is…. Disappointingly fine. Not a good feeling to have to cut into something so expensive and I still have no idea how to fix the alignment issue. I will have to take the frame to an expert aluminum welder like @Tom from Rubicon. The chains, the pedal chain is perfect. Moves silently, the drive chains from engine to clutch, and clutch to rear sprocket though are very very loud. I don’t know if it’s because my chains are too loose or because the clutch chain is still a bit twisted. Might be due to their weight and size compared to a Shimano chain, not enough lube,or not tight enough. Or even too tight! I’ll figure it out. The engine does turn on and run fine except I am in a higher elevation. I will have to get some kind of adjustable carburetor. Phatmoto sells a “racing” carb but it’s same as stock just adjustable. If you guys know of or have any suggestions for what is compatible, I am open to suggestions because I’m not turning up much info on phatmoto specific Lifan LF-153 79cc. I heard most if not all carbs and exhausts will not work because the holes are way different than most other brands. The kickstand failed ROFL! Didn’t last a day of actual riding. Just crushed underneath the weight of the bike it’s self. Tried to bend it back into position using a shop vice and a breaker bar. The shop vice gripped well, yet the table unfortunately met the same fate as the kickstand. So I ordered a replacement from Amazon, the Portland works “power stance” kickstand. That looks like a good chungus piece of metal. Once everything gets in, I’ll give you guys some pictures of the bike in a semi functional form or another!
 

Tom from Rubicon

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Apr 4, 2016
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Wondered where you were on this adventure? Mostly peeing up a rope it seems.
Phatmoto specs state the the frame is steel. Got a good magnet? Correcting the drivetrain geometry by a certified welder should be a last resort.
Curt is 100% right, let the arbitration be PayPal's problem.

Tom
 
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