Goats Head

2door said:
A little friendly disagreement is okay guys...just keep it civil.
It's been interesting reading and seeing the pros and cons of the subject. I typically try to stay away from thorn prone areas but even nicely paved and maintained trails can be thorny after a breezy day due to the weedy patches adjacent to them. The goat heads once dried are nearly invisible laying on a concrete trail and I've had them stuck in my tires often. If they went all the way through, I can't say, but the combination of thick tubes and Slime have served me well. Since my first post where I said Slime had clogged pressure gauges, I took one apart, ran hot water into it and managed to get it working again.
I will say this...do not put slime in a tube then let the bike set for an appreciable length of time. I recently replaced a tube on the front of my wife's MTB that is not ridden regularly. The Slime was probably close to two years old and had coagulated into a lump that could not be smooshed back into a liquid. It wouldn't come out of the stem and made the deflated tube look like a snake that had just had a good meal. I tossed it and replaced it with a thorn resistant tube and no Slime. Just my observations.
Tom
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This blows my mind. I have tubes on the hook in the garage from Austin Texas days. Been on the hook for 7 years. I run bigger tires than even before. The slime has not set up. Could there be you had something else in there? Perhaps even with it?


I have had old slime tubes apart. The liquid looked the same much like it did in the the bottle. there were no clumps or anything of that fashion. I suppose anything could happen I have not encountered this.
 
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I know it sure doesn't look the same. The 4 year old slime that was in the Gator tires was kinda black and lumpy and it had the consistency of pudding. I have a feeling the lumps were the chunks of rubber that's in ATV slime that had stuck together but what caused it to turn a blackish olive green is beyond me. At least it didn't smell rank like some other liquids that I've found in tires have.
 
Chalo said:
I'd never heard of Slime messing up a gauge before that. I have seen it clog valves and gum up pump chucks many times. The biggest problems arise when someone decides more is better, and fills half the volume of his tube with the stuff.

Carl Fogel, a frequent contributor to rec.bicycles.tech, lives in Pueblo, CO and gets uncountable numbers of goathead punctures. His remedy is Slime, without the extra measure of a thick tube as far as I can tell. It seems he lets punctures accumulate until they ooze or leak down too much for his liking, then he patches up to dozens of holes all at once.

Chalo
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This is hard to fathom as well. I have been under the impression a slime tube cannot be patched. As I have tried to on the road once [nail to the rim very rare for me] I gave it a real go too.

I have friends that ran paper thin tubes they always leaked to some degree. My experience has shown that a thick tube will not.

It seams that most folks put as little as they can in those paper thin tube too. The reason would be some sorta racing strategy.

I always filled my tubes just generous enough for a tiny amount of side wall protection.
 
If you want hella protection guy's. Gut a thorn proof tube then put it over a thorn proof tube with all the talc wiped out. What this does is form a full time tire patch. The tire will never be perfectly straight unless you are very lucky with it.

Over the years I discovered I don't need it. But say someone on a reservation that would take care of all the probs with a dose of slime to boot.
 
2 door I found this. Why is your product only guaranteed for two years?

SLiME tire sealants are formulated to not only repair punctures but maintain the integrity of the tubes, tires and wheels they come into contact with. Once SLiME is installed into a tire it goes to work. Each time the tire is in rotation the sealant is forced to the tread area where it is available to immediately treat punctures. When a puncture occurs sealant is lost through the perforation. Over time, the original amount of sealant installed will diminish. Also, the conditions present within the tire will slowly affect the sealant's chemical composition. After two years, we recommend removing sealant the tire and, if the tire has significant tread left and is in overall good condition, new sealant can be installed. [I suspect this is for the car tires]

Inner tubes treated with SLiME, which are still being used after two years, could be examined and if they are deemed to be in good condition, a small amount of the inner tube formula could be installed to replenish any lost sealant and bring the remaining product back to its normal operating viscosity.


I suspect to some degree this would be why I often thought this wine got better with age? To a degree I am wrong. In all of my cases in the past I had added more slime when I began to notice the tire would get soft in a weeks time. They are saying to use something else.

This would be tires that took on quit a barrage of Goat Heads.:)

Here is where I got the link. SLIME - Worldwide Leader in Tire Care - Fixing a flat tire? Slime Tire & Tube Sealant
 
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Goat,
I haven't taken the time to read the lable completely, my bad, but I wonder if temperature has anything to do with the coagulation. It gets cold in Denver and in the coldest days of winter it's not uncommon to see below freezing temperatues in our garage. Char's MTB is one that she rides, maybe four or five times during the summer and the rest of the time it hangs in a suspended bike rack from the ceiling of the garage.
This past spring when she got it down the front tire was flat. I aired it to 40psi and within a 24 hours it was flat again. I bought her new tubes and when I was changing the front one was when I found the lump. I could move it around the inside circumference of the tube but it wouldn't squeeze out of the valve stem and plugged it when I tried to force it out. I gave up, installed the new tube and left her old one hanging. I checked it this afternoon and the lump is still there. No other products in the tube except for the original Slime from two summers ago. Weird, huh?
Tom
 
Yeah that's a weird one all right. My garage is detached from the house. It prolly don't get as cold here I suppose. I have road through every winter here. This is when I use my peddle bikes. I will chatter do death and fall off a motored one.lol

Here is what they say about the cold..

Will SLiME freeze?

SLiME Tire Sealants can be used in relatively extreme conditions. SLiME will not freeze solid in extreme cold, but the viscosity may increase. As soon as the tire is in rotation, friction will create heat and that heat will bring the sealant back to its normal viscosity.

I would not bet on it in sub zero weather though! I keep my bikes in the house with my dogs:) To many nice components on them to challenge nature more than I have too.


From the faq

What is the shelf life of SLiME?

As long as the sealant is contained within its original bottle with the cap securely closed and stored in a cool, dry place SLiME will remain effective for at least 4 years. If you intend to use a bottle you've had for awhile, please be sure to shake the bottle vigorously prior to installation. This will help to blend the product and restore the normal viscosity. Once installed in a tube or tire Slime will remain active for two years.


They use something in it similar to antifreeze I think. I don't know. I saw a few cars come into the shop where they did something wrong? The coolant had turned into a gelatin like pudding. Worked hard to flush the block out thought we were gonna have to vat the block. It was a terrible sight.lol



If they got something to tell on the sight there not fessing? I have never seen it happen to me?
 
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Kevlarr said:
I know it sure doesn't look the same. The 4 year old slime that was in the Gator tires was kinda black and lumpy and it had the consistency of pudding. I have a feeling the lumps were the chunks of rubber that's in ATV slime that had stuck together but what caused it to turn a blackish olive green is beyond me. At least it didn't smell rank like some other liquids that I've found in tires have.
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That is a differant product than what we use in our bike tubes from what I can tell. I have never used it . Quote from the Faq..
http://www.slime.com/faq.html#answer_1421


What is the difference between SLiME for ATVs and SLiME for Autos?

There are 2 varieties of SLiME sealant; one is specifically for tires with INNER TUBES and one is for TUBELESS tires. Auto and ATV tires are generaly TUBELESS so there is no difference in the formula recommended for these tires. Both will require the tubeless formulation or "tire" sealant.
 
Goat Herder said:
I have been under the impression a slime tube cannot be patched. As I have tried to on the road once [nail to the rim very rare for me] I gave it a real go too.
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I have patched these at work for customers rather than go to the effort of applying Slime to a new tube. The trick is getting the tube surface completely clean of glycol residue.

I sand the area first, since this operation inevitably causes more Slime to ooze out. Then I cleanse the area using an evaporating degreaser like White Lightning Clean Streak (a careful and sparing application of nasty brake cleaner spray would probably work too). As long as the hole doesn't burp out any more Slime before the glue is dry and the patch is set, it seems to work OK.

I sure wouldn't want to patch a dozen holes that way, but doing one at a time has been successful so far.

Chalo
 
Chalo said:
I have patched these at work for customers rather than go to the effort of applying Slime to a new tube. The trick is getting the tube surface completely clean of glycol residue.

I sand the area first, since this operation inevitably causes more Slime to ooze out. Then I cleanse the area using an evaporating degreaser like White Lightning Clean Streak (a careful and sparing application of nasty brake cleaner spray would probably work too). As long as the hole doesn't burp out any more Slime before the glue is dry and the patch is set, it seems to work OK.

I sure wouldn't want to patch a dozen holes that way, but doing one at a time has been successful so far.

Chalo
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I thought just for a second I bought into what you said as tangible. For just one patch in an emergency. [nail to the rim] is almost impossible. I don't own a patch kit and never needed one. With the exception of a nail to the rim. It did not work for me.

Half way to Travis lake I encountered one of those said nails. I walked the bike back into town. Got to a convenience store they had a rubber patch kit in the hardware/automotive isle. There was a coin operated air compressor there. They had brake cleaner there too. I gave it the best go ever.


No dice... I am not saying it cannot be done. Good grief why a paper thin tube?

As a kid I entertained those patch kits. Untill the old man at Cycle Cave showed me the B.M.X. tire and the 2x4 with the nails. He did not promote paper thin tubes ether. My life changed for the better.

Suggesting that someone can do this on the road side is very cruel advice indeed. While suggesting that a tube can be patched multiple times holds water. Putting a slime tube into the equation means you don't need patches at all. A guy can rejuvenate it with more slime. That being said the tube was prolly drier and patchable. My thick tubes don't go dry you don't patch them it is not possible.

The biggest mistake with slime is shaving weight and putting to little that is the only reason the frail tubes were patchable. I put just enough for a tiny bit of side wall protection [thick tubes only]. Preslimed tubes have a minuscule amounts of slime in them. This is how things fail to work.

So perhaps the paper thin slim tube worked so good for so long it had no more sealant in it. I am just trying to understand why such a tube?

Your Indian friend in the said Pueblo is having a hard time because he is using paper thin tubes. While it is a great way to try to take advantage to prove your view. It is cruel and unusual punishment to suggest patching paper thin tubes or using them in your said context. When you can get a heavy duty thick tube put slime in it and have the ultimate protection ever. [all that labor patching a frail tube that was not even necessary]

I would my self suggest carrying a thin light weight tube [preslimed] for that one time where a nail gets to a rim here where I live.Then I will not be worrying about stickers or anything on the way home. I could easily go through lots and lots of stickers for the next two weeks or even a month until doing it right. At which time the said tube could be rejuvenated,[more slime] but why?

I called bikes shops in town here they all speak highly of slime. The first question I asked all of them is do you or have you patched a slime tub? I got some laughter out of it. For starters almost no shop will ever sell the labor. All of them will sell you a preslimed tube though. They will not patch a tube. That is a common practice for all the bike shops I called.[not patching tubes]

I even called this shop here they use rental bikes with slime tubes bike shops austin tx - Google Maps

They also will not patch a slime tube? Or a regular tube for that matter.

The reason I called the bike shops for a second opinion is because you see no one touches my stuff ever. So I though it would be fair to get there opinions. Slime got rave reviews! I called your shop too. They don't promote slime.

Welcome to Cycle Cave Inc The oldest authority on N.M. stickers
Fat Tire Cycles - Home

This shop was funny they promote there own product. REI Albuquerque Store
Every other word that came out of this guy's mouth was that there product will not clog up the valve core. It was funny because of how he carried on.

I want a product that can do that.[plug the valve core] It says the world of it. Use it properly and no plugged valve core ever wala!

All the bike shops that carried and liked the slime had no issues with stuff like a clogged air chuck or any of the sort. I asked.



It is truly sad about your Indian friend. I personally can't imagine any body intertaining a paper thin tube where he comes from or any where, but that's just me. I wish I could have met him. He just needed a thick tube and slime:)


I just pulled a sowing pin[one with a plastic ball on the end of it] out of the tire and tube of one of my motorized. I did not re-air the tire I just gave the tire a squeeze with my hand and a short spin around the block. Yep holding air just peachy as I please. That was a week ago. The said tire is perfect and needs no air just can't beat that.

I will ride on that tire and tube till the cows come home nothing is hurt on it! Good for 3000 miles still easily at this point without adding slime and good for many more pins and stickers too without adding any slime at all. On a thicker tube there is more rubber for the slime to work with and its best properties stand out. That is where all my bragging rights come from! There's no telling how long the pin was there til I found it.

Have to imagine blowing air through a deeper hole or a shallow one. A thick tube is like I dunno 6 or 7 times harder. Plus you have to displace all that rubber to blow through the hole. With that said There is way better material for the product to work with at this point.

Why use a paper thin tube? Good grief..
 
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In brief, the reason most folks use normal weight tubes is because thick tubes weigh a lot (in relation to their lightweight bikes), add noticeable rolling resistance (squandering limited pedal power), and deaden whatever ride quality the tire offers. Only one of these three factors is as significant for a motorized bike as it is for a pedal bike.

That doesn't mean that a motorized bike should be any heaver, slower, or clunky-riding than necessary, though. For a Happy Time conversion (where changing the rear wheel is a chore), I would consider a thick tube and Slime in the rear tire to be a reasonable measure against frequent punctures-- but an armored tire like the Schwalbe Marathon Plus, Michelin Pilot City, or CST Salvo is a simpler and more elegant solution, and probably more effective than a thick tube plus Slime in a cheapo tire.

In places that are not as plagued by puncture vine as Albuquerque, it doesn't make as much sense to take the speed and ride quality penalty of a thick tube or tire liners in the front tire, which is easy and quick to change out on an occasional basis.

If you lose only 1 mph to clunky-riding tires and tubes, it doesn't take very much riding at all before you are giving up a lot more time to them than you would to fixing the odd flat-- and that doesn't even take into consideration the less pleasant ride of tires that thud instead of bounce.

Think for a moment what highly engineered automobiles and motorcycles use: not tire liners, not liquid sealant, but simply tires that are puncture-resistant enough by themselves to perform their job reliably. Such tires exist for bicycles, too-- even for challenging environments like Albuquerque. But the benefit of using only as tough a tire, and only as thick a tube, as you need comes in the form of improved ride quality and speed.

A tribute to a tire Jim’s Bike Blog
Marathon Plus HS 348 | Schwalbe North America
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/tire/schwalbe/marathon-plus-atb
gitaneusa.com :: View topic - Gitane Restoration Project - Need Help with ID, etc...

Chalo
 
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I run down hill competition tires with steel beads in them when I can find them. My touring bikes are all full sus mountain bikes. Done with touring sprockets. Very small cassettes in the rear. I only run 52 tooth in the front regardless of the wind or a hill. I am 6 foot tall and run 180mm cranks. My full sus bike frames are rare too. I have to find a compilation that meets my height.Cranks too far under me etc. Last triple tree forks reflect that as well. Much like these.http://www.downcycles.com/store/2010-rock-shox-boxxer-race-p-1189.html. or these http://motorbicycling.com/f3/my-latest-craigslist-score-22674.html.

These bikes are my gutter kings. All the gutters a city can offer.:) Pure peddle pleasure

Now you are prolly asking why not run something like a Lance Armstrong approach[real touring bike]. That is a prolly a good question. Here is why I need the work out. I cannot get one on anything less. I don't want to have to ride more than 30 miles to get a work out. I need the heavier bike to slow me down too.[traffic]This is how I road in Austin as well. I like to take the work out where most hearts will fail and keep it there. I always road in work slacks or jeans. [commando] With a special gel seat recipe I have yet to see any thing like it.

When I first arrived in Austin I had Continental tires 26x2.3 slicks that are every bit what you are describing. I had no Idea how slick it got out there after it rains. I slid through an intersection in the worst way possible. I avoided a pot hole the bike came smooth out from under me. The intersection at 1 day Paint and Body on Lamar blvd. I had road over every kind of ice and snow in N.M. Never saw it that slick before.

I soon found myself on trips to work in the morning when I was just gingerly peddling around a neighborhood corner. Say 10 miles an hour tops the whole bike front and rear tire would try to drift out from under me. [morning dew]

I saw folks that could not get there cars in the driveway after it rained. Too steep no traction.

After that the rest is history I hate rough riding 26x1.75 tires. I consistently run 26x2.7 tires on 30 miles bike rides [peddling] with style and ease now.

Tires like this are on my peddle bikes and are my favorite. 26x55/60 Wtb Moto Raptor Race Folding Mountain Tire 57283 at Cambriabike
The trade off is perfect. They flex and grab the road like a tire should. I would run bigger if I could find them in this tread design. Why I have not gone down since Austin.

Folks with engines on bikes should consider the trade off of a rough riding tire that can let go of the road. Regardless of what tubes they used. These are different animals than a peddle bike. I know that many frames will not accommodate a tire of my magnitude, but they sure improve a ride. Shoot guy's the motor is doing all the work who cares.

I don't use tire liners just a thick tube. That is all I ever used.

For one of my engine builds I used Nevegal-DH W tire, 26x2.7 in. Stick-E
Now if I could find a tire just a tad less aggressive tread wise with the flexibility this has. I don't like slicks because one little patch of sand on the pavement and its over. This is desert out here and the wind blows. These are the tires I was talking about when the sowing pin showed up. [front tire got it] this bike is a full sus bike done with triple tree forks true down hill components. The tires are straight and true as anything can can get. It is truly smooth as silk at all speeds. I love big flexible tires!



I love these size tires becuase they really smooth out a ride. It is a whole new world of smooth that a rigid tire will never duplicate. I always road a bike for a work out. The bigger tires are like adding sus to a bike. Its a whole nother beast.

I see touring bikes on the side of the road all the time here think like this Google Image Result for http://www.commonwheel.org.uk/system/files/u8/My%20Treasure.jpg on the side of the road they have there patch kits out. My child hood was with these types of bikes. I would not mind having a nice one I don't need them[ think work out] The first time I had to patch a tube I would be Irate. I have not patched a tube in prolly 30 years. Except for the one and only Austin nail to the rim.

You make some good points about shaving weight. I respect them. I never cared about weight I just peddled and got used to it! A big ol tire will take the beating away from the rim warping too.

Most times like you have pointed out the front tire flips the projectile the rear tire catches it. It don't allays work that way and I don't patch tubes. Its unnecessary and against my religion.Urban Dictionary: homie don't play that way
 
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Big tires like mine can survive a nail better than a smaller tire. The nail don't find the rim in which case I just ride on. No patching tubes and no worries. I just let the tube sealer do the work! never think twice about it:)
 
Chalo said:
I remember walking along roadsides to and from the bus while getting my car serviced in Albuquerque, and having my thick flip-flops completely surfaced with goatheads on the bottoms. It was painful and annoying just to remove them so I could reenter the hotel uncontaminated. That was really awful.


Chalo
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Chalo said:
MTB tires are every bit as thin between the knobs as a road bike tire, if not thinner. It's the thin spots that count-- when was the last time you got a puncture through the middle of a knob?


Chalo
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Not enough side wall protection for me here[bottom edges of the tire]. The first time I wounder off the side walk into the dirt anything can happen. With my set up wandering of the side walk is fun!(^) http://jimsbikeblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/schwalbe-marathon-plus-image.jpg

You mentioned when the last time was I got a puncture through the middle of a knob? This is funny If you walked around without those flip flops I just bet ya you would get them stickers between your toes.:D


Stickers are not any more pickier than the slime if you give slime the opportunity to inter your valve core it will.[10 o clock or higher guy's] If ya give the stickers a chance they will cling to anything. The tire you are suggesting does not have enough protection for me. Think on coming barrage of stickers from unprotected angles and how a tire acts in the dirt.

While I made my bikes into touring bikes. They are durable. All terrain baby! I can drop my bike in the drive way just like when I was a kid and run in the house. Not really I don't do that but it sounded good.


All the he haw I have around thin tube and my hands on experience revolves around these bigger tires I run and my terrain [mass Goat Herding]. There are environments they are perfectly suitable. I truly understand why a guy wants a lighter bike it is not for me. In light of that I need to apologize for being somewhat harsh about them. I just hate the confusion is all.
 
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I understand the benefits of big tires-- I usually use just about the biggest tire that will fit in any given frame, unless there is another limiting factor (like rim width). So my skinniest tires are 700x32, but my fattest ones are quite big. On my mountain bike, I use Kenda Kraze 26 x 3.0" slicks:

fattybohm.JPG


These do a fine job off road, but they are awesome on the street. I weigh about 330 pounds, but I can still run these tires at 16-18 psi when I want to. The drawback is that they are thick-treaded and slow as street tires go. But they are so cushy I can't resist them. I don't think these tires are available anymore, or at least I can no longer find them. When I have to change them out, my consolation will be the tires I was using before: Schwalbe Big Apple 26 x 2.35" slicks. These are faster, but less high and mighty.

bohmside.JPG


Neither the Kenda Kraze nor the Schwalbe Big Apple has been particularly susceptible to flats, although I do recall having had at least one flat in each kind of tire on my mountain bike. On another one of my bikes equipped with Big Apples, I hit something in the road that tore a coin-sized chunk of rubber away from the tire, but was deflected by the Kevlar belt without breaching the casing. I simply glued the flap of tread back down, and it has been working well ever since.

Even though both these tires seem tough and streetworthy, I don't expect that either of them would put up a worthy fight against New Mexican goatheads. The Kenda would do a bit better, just because it has more rubber on the tread.

The owner of the bike shop where I work uses Kenda Nevegals (the 120 threads per inch "Lite DTC" kind) on his MTB. His are probably the thinnest-walled and most supple knobbies I have ever seen. The tread pattern seems to make good sense, too.

Chalo
 
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Yeah I liked the thick walled slicks on the road and the sand it self. They don't flex enough for me to hold the road in my taste. I like softer walled tires and the all terrain approach . Those slick roads in Austin changed my outlook. I like the rubber to give enough to grab the road. Thinner walled tires with flex too them may have kept me alive. I have not dumped a bike since Austin.

I like the tread part of the tire to give under my thumb and still be able to run the tire at about 40 psi. That's when they are playful to me. The road just reads back better to my handling. Slicks are too stiff at the tread to me softening the tires did not give me the response I was looking for.

http://motorbicycling.com/f3/cargo-22496-3.html

http://motorbicycling.com/f47/coil-spring-test-video-21494.html
 

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I find that knobbies scrub and creep in turns too much for my liking, and are noisy and slow on the street. But they still slip in the same places where I tend to slip on slicks-- which is wet train tracks, wet steel plates, and wet polished stone.

In order for knobs or tread to do you any good, the surface has to offer enough texture for the tread edges to catch on. Chip seal has it, but smooth asphalt and concrete often do not.

Austin's drought and flash flood weather pattern means that when the rain first arrives after a long absence, there is a generous film of grease, dust, coolant, etc. on well-trafficked streets. A little water turns this mixture into a very effective lube, until there has been enough rain to wash it away.

Today, the streets are clean and grippy even where they are wet. A decaying hurricane dumped as much as a foot of rain here in the last two days.

Chalo
 
I have used bicycles for many years. When I lived in Utah I had slime in my tubes. I always carried a pump extra tubes and a patch kit with tire boots. I like being prepared. I have been using Schwalbe tires and have had one flat in 3 years. If I move back to goat head territory than I will use slime again. I have been on trails and had multiple flats in one trip before. I currently put between 100 to 150 miles a week in traveling to work and the store.
 
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