Do aftermarket cylinder jugs exhist?

Discussion in 'Heads and Cylinders' started by mobike91, Apr 28, 2016.

  1. mobike91

    mobike91 New Member

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    Haven't been on this site since maybe 2011?.... Caught the bug again.... Last time I was a young guy nearly able to afford gas and depended on these things, now I just want to experiment and sink around with them. My ebay shopping list is packed full of parts. I see a lot of new parts out since 2011.... But I still don't see any new style of cylinders. You would think by now they would have came up with a new casting or a billet jug or something. Anyone got any info? I'm planning on buying a deal load of parts and a engine. Won't be buying a kit, most the stock parts don't interest me at all. Thinking 28 tooth sprocket. All performance to back it up. My record speed way back when was 62 mph on a chinamotor. Didn't last long.... Lol
     
  2. mogollonmonster

    mogollonmonster New Member

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    Um... I think I saw a billet jug somewhere... Can't remember where. I have seen "port corrected" and "reed valve specific" cylinders here and there too, again not sure where, and not sure I'd trust em any who.

    If you're just dinking around, maybe you could take a fairly well built engine to a machine shop, have them reproduce it with higher quality material. They could also tighten tolerances, and address any of the known pre existing issues with the China Girl. It would be pricey, but it's a venture I believe worth undertaking, and intend to do myself someday.

    Imagine, a full mill, billet cut China Girl, with a chrome-molly cylinder sleeve, piston, rod and crank... That might be a bit overboard, but I think you get the point.
     
  3. YesImLDS

    YesImLDS New Member

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    They was one guy who was selling cylinder jugs for $250 a pop that had a cast iron lining in it it instead of the flimsy coating. I guess the problem is beating the price of a regular one at $20 when you can get what you need out of it. Unless they came with like bore kits w/ piston for more displacement I can't see much of a market.
     
  4. mogollonmonster

    mogollonmonster New Member

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    Shine it up, slap made in the USA stickers all over it, and enough idiots will buy it to make you rich, proven fact. In the same breath, a two stroke China Girl like I described would last the average rider a lifetime... Something to think about there.

    We look at something and think "cost prohibitive"
    Some look and say, "awesomeness, I have to have it" thus, supply and demand. The request for a better China girl has been made for as long as the engines themselves. Fill that demand and you will have something, just look at everyone who ever owned a morini or whizzer, they're iconic.

    Lets face it, ebikes will never put the world on two wheels, I wouldn't even say it's increased that number as it is. Most enviroMENTALists, were already pedaling when e bikes became the fad. But in it's own right, the whizzer did set the world on fire, as did morini and the "Hobby Time Revolution"

    These are niche markets, there are niches within the niches, you could find one easily enough, or dig one out for yourself.
     
  5. ZipTie

    ZipTie New Member

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    Its really the programing the CNC and testing etc. where most of the cost would be. Production would be pretty easy once past all the programing. I do wonder why Fred's Heads hasn't made a jug to go along with his other nice products. Surely a long lasting cylinder sleeve can be manufactured also. Id be the first customer if the cost was in the 100.00 range. Does anyone fully understand the mfg process to make the cylinder sleeve?
    I agree E bikes that run on batteries have there own advantages but a huge set of disadvantages, fires, cost, weight, range, long charging times, etc. Id like to own one don't get me wrong, but the cost seems too high yet for me. Glad to see more development in E powered cars and bikes but I like gas combustion and always will, and I would love to see some modern mass produced improvements to the plain old simple bump start China girl made using less crude sand casting and more CNC machining. All the while using the basic simple concept of the HT as it has so much going for it. ITS THE SIMPLICITY OF IT.
    The new Zeda electric start engine looks better quality on the outside but is lost in my book with the electric start, need for a big battery, more wiring, etc. So who knows until a year of testing from members here if its more reliable? http://jlzeda.com/view.php?id=365
     

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    #5 ZipTie, Apr 29, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
  6. mogollonmonster

    mogollonmonster New Member

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    I feel the same way about the Zeda, big drawbacks and few real improvements. From the pics in the other post, it looks like it could be case inducted. But one piece cylinder manufacturing is pretty easy to screw up. Three possible starting methods is too much, like you said, zip tie, simplicity. I wouldn't mind a pull start on my bike, I just don't have the cash for a wide crank conversion, but, if the motor poops out, I don't want to pedal the extra weight of starter and battery, and blah blah blah, I curse the 25lbs China Girl enough.

    Integrate the pull start, but otherwise cut me a China Girl out of high quality materials. Like you've pointed out, once the program is written, you can start to recoup cost, and you will, quickly. I'd buy a China Girl with a mileage warranty, even as much as say 5-10 cents a mile. If you can GUARANTEE me 5,000 miles with no power loss or part failure, I can guarantee I'll be emptying my pockets for it.
     
  7. ZipTie

    ZipTie New Member

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    Hey, We need someone to invent a new motor with 4 ways to start it as 3 ways just isn't enough. Push, pull, electric and the yet untested ...drop start method / LOL
    Oh, why not add kick start and spring wind start as a back up, put these starters on the rear side.... 6 ways to start a HT is better than 3... Ok I am for sure going to bed now.
     
    #8 ZipTie, Apr 30, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
  8. crassius

    crassius Active Member

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    knowing about chinese factory work, I'd like to see a bunch o' these Zedas to compare transfer port machining over a full run on their tool set (seems they often run a tool to failure before changing it out)
     
  9. mogollonmonster

    mogollonmonster New Member

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    Ditto, quality control sucks, will the zeda be any better? It certainly has the potential to be an expensive boat anchor...

    If they did nine ways to start a HT, seven would fail in the first week, and you'd be so tired of pedaling, you'd just walk. I'm perfectly content with pedaling to start, but a pull start would facilitate my laziness...

    I just want somebody with manufacturing capabilities to take the China Girl as seriously as, say, STHIL takes chainsaws...
     
  10. mobike91

    mobike91 New Member

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    For me I really want the reliability of say a nickle plated sleeve or something harder than soft aluminum. How hard would it really be to go back to the drawing board and tweak a couple things to create a better product. More cooling, more air flow, and a sleevable insert. Most miles I ever pulled on a cylinder was around 2000 miles. It was a good run but not much for what it should do.
     
  11. crassius

    crassius Active Member

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    at the factory, it probably wouldn't cost much more to shove a steel sleeve in, but shipping that extra weight might cost quite a bit
     
  12. mogollonmonster

    mogollonmonster New Member

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    Yikes I'm at 2700+ and I hear 3000 is fairly standard. Yet when you do the math, a full motor replacement every 3000 miles is still cheaper than a car... I've still got excellent compression, my current issue is a lack of spark, but that's no biggie.

    Once again, anything to increase mileage per motor is an awesome idea in my book. At 100+mpg, you should at least get 100 gallons of fuel through it before it dies, not 30.
     
  13. mobike91

    mobike91 New Member

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    From 2009 to 2011 when I had a bunch of these I ride the snot out of them. This go around I plan to be very gentle and ride them with a lot less punishment and abuse involved. I plan to get a jack shaft kit and cruise hopefully between 5000-7000 rpm at 60 mph depending on power and mods. I wanna test the difference from our of the box stock, to fully modded out power punch engine. I'll talk to my local machine shop about possible sleeve ideas too. Maybe we can stumble apon something amazing.
     
  14. exokinetic

    exokinetic New Member

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    From all my research into two stroke cylinder design, a steel sleeve is strictly for engine longevity. In this case the ability to re-bore and hone the steel sleeve, as well as the ability to use chrome plated rings extends the the useful life of the cylinder.


    For maximum power output (obviously not what it seems the OP searching for) a steel sleeve will always be at a disadvantage to a plated aluminum cylinder. This is because of the poor thermal conductivity of steel (relative to aluminum) compounded by the fact that even the masters of Japanese 2 stroke manufacture could not create an efficient thermal bond between the steel sleeve and the aluminum cylinder that does the cooling in an air cooled engine.

    One effective solution for this is water cooling, obviously.

    So I would venture to guess top end longevity would be significantly improved with a water cooled, steel sleeved cylinder.

    Of course you would then need chrome plated rings that fit our piston. And if you plan on over-boring that sleeve you are going to need to source a similarly larger diameter piston somehow (not impossible, just has to be done).

    Ohh yea, and the whole water cooling system...

    Water Cooled Steel Sleeve Cylinder Kit (puch/gilardoni/hi hi?)
    Water Pump (engine has to turn this, robbing HP, and you need to design a method of attaching it to the engine so it can then be driven with a chain, or gears, or a belt)
    Radiator (again need to design a method of attaching to the frame, and routing the lines, plus: water is heavy)



    There is another way.....


    Nikasil plating instead of the BS China single step chrome plating. Heck even a legitimate high nickel content chrome plating would be worlds better than what these cylinders come with from the factory.

    Now both roads have their expense, but I would recommend accurately removing the existing BS chrome on a stock cylinder, and then have it re-plated with high quality chrome -or nikasil- thick enough to create a nice tolerance gap for the piston you intend to use. If you use chrome plating, then you should use the stock cast iron rings, witch you will have to replace much less frequently with a harder cylinder bore (the cylinder won't wear nearly as fast, so for the same amount of ring wear, the cylinder the the harder bore will still have a tighter ring end-gap, and thus will retain higher compression, longer).

    If you go the Nikasil route, you could use chrome plated rings if you wanted to (and could find them for the piston you intend to use) and get even longer life out of the top end.


    Now I haven't found anyone to do this for our cylinders yet, but I plan on looking. And I wouldn't be upset if someone else found a place to do it and you know, like....

    ...posted it here.
     
  15. mogollonmonster

    mogollonmonster New Member

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    I wonder if electro plating could work for that, Exo? Of course, it would cover the exterior of the cylinder as well. Perhaps the cylinder itself could be used as the fluid vessel, with the electroplating system grounded out to it? Electroplating can be very uniform, and a cylinder hone could always be run through it. Possibly, it could be done at home, providing you could source the proper materials...
     
  16. exokinetic

    exokinetic New Member

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  17. exokinetic

    exokinetic New Member

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    I'm going to be contacting max RPM's about doing our chinadoll cylinders, and potentially the pistons too.

    Will post back when I get a response.
     
  18. mogollonmonster

    mogollonmonster New Member

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    Another random thought... An EFI kit of some form would be cool... I've seen a few chainsaws with it set up... Just a thought.
     

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