BTR Tanks Angst

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hoodoo

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Dec 26, 2009
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There seems to be some angst? out there re BTR tanks. For those of you who want a custom generic tank for a 1915 or so look that will get lots of praise where you live but maybe yawns on this forum (I mean if you didn't build the tank--what you get is something that somebody else did for money), there are 300 dollar or so tanks out there that are primo. A nice paint job still might get some kudos.
For those of you who have the talent and knowledge and infrastructure to build the tanks, kudos to you, my only selfish request would be do something a little different or make it more consistent with a real motorcycle of the period (something more tribute than generic). Some had curved sides on their tanks, some cover the top bar, some were cylindrical, some were quite boxy, others were darn weird and cool (like the Flying Merkel) or the Wanderer. Not criticizing anyone's build, but variety is the spice of life.
For those of you like me who don't have the ability to make our own tanks it is still cool to make covers, but it is hard to find suitable tanks you can cover up. A simple smallish rectangular or cylindrical tank that could fit a standard worksman frame (or anything larger) and viola, tank covers could be built out of just about anything and if one got bored, they could build a different cover for a different look without major changes to the bike. Maybe there are some out there? I would not mind buying a built tank if I could control the cosmetics of it. I presume a very simple "undertank" would be significantly less than those magnificent but still generic tanks.
 

bairdco

a guy who makes cool bikes
Aug 18, 2009
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i'm not sure what exactly you're looking for when trying to decipher your rambling post, but i gotta say, custom tanks ain't cheap. the same craftsmanship goes into a crappy china two stroke bicycle tank as that of a high dollar custom motorcycle tank. but you all want it for nothing. or at least, less than the cost of the motor kit.

sportscarpat makes worksman tanks, and they're top notch. but you want him to make 12 different styles to fit whatever kinda look you're going for? that just ain't gonna happen. we're not building reproduction motorcycles here. we're making glorified mopeds.

and there's no money in it.

this is my biggest pet peeve with this "hobby." people with cheap bikes and a cheap motor kit think everything else should be just as cheap.

go try to get a custom made exhaust for your car, or a set of custom made wheels, or aftermarket lights, tank, paint, tires, friggen valve caps...

if you want a 19.99 custom tank from walmart, all you gotta do is learn chinese and show them there's a market for it.

then you can buy some socks, a new sleeping bag, beef jerky, and a new tank for your bike all at the same place.
 

darkhawk22

New Member
Aug 17, 2010
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Hoodoo I see what you are saying about the tanks but I also know where the guys are coming from on this. I have been reading the forums for a while on this and there are a large number of frame variations and that is why the P-nut tank is probably so popular, because it will fit just about anything. For some of the older style mountain bikes and basic triangle frames there are drop down tanks available on eBay. These can be modified with Bondo etc.. to get a rounded look as one guy did with a Harley Build, it turned out great! I'm looking at using a top fill Moped tank myself, they are bigger than the P-nut and can be found in many shapes and sizes. Also, they have a tunnel that runs through the center so the tank hangs down over the frame bars a bit.
In the mean time if you have a Worksman frame I would say that Pat makes the best tanks! They are quality Stainless Steel, well made, and will last a lifetime!
 

BarelyAWake

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Jul 21, 2009
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Tank shape is dictated by the space within the frame, the materials used and the tools available. For example, sportscarapat's Worksman tanks are angular simply because the Worksman's frame is angular - were it a rounded tank it wouldn't fit properly and even look odd, contrasting with the straight lines of the chassis.

He also makes the tanks out of stainless steel, obviously superior in many ways it's also one of the least malleable metals and difficult to work. While it's easily possible to make single plane curves (he does actually, the top) multiple compound curves (teardrop), commonplace on production motorcycle tanks are a whole different story. Even with more forgiving metals such as mild steel or even copper, your choices are hammering the metal into the shape you desire with a dishing bag or hollowed out form - a lengthy and tedious process far more an art than craft, using an English Wheel which is not only a quite costly tool, but the art of using one is also nearly forgotten & lastly, an industrial form press, needless to say that's so costly as to be out of reach as a viable option.

So... aside from the industrial press, you're talking sculpture - literally art. Folks unfamiliar with basic metalworking already bemoan the "high" costs of a custom tank, and that's for the "generic" look you dislike, can you imagine what it would cost for the above methods?

Still, diversity is a wonderful thing and I appreciate what yer tryin' to say... sadly, like so many things it's jut not that simple. I would suggest giving it a whirl and seeing what you can come up with, metalworking can be quite entertaining :) Here's a real basic tutorial for making a simple in-frame tank if yer curious, as it was for a 40's Rollfast - it's also a bit more curvy than the Worksman *shrug* but no compound curves I'm afraid lol: http://motorbicycling.com/f38/diy-tank-even-if-you-cant-17323.html
 
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sportscarpat

Bonneville Bomber the Salt Flat record breaker
Jun 25, 2009
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Tank shape is dictated by the space within the frame, the materials used and the tools available. For example, sportscarapat's Worksman tanks are angular simply because the Worksman's frame is angular - were it a rounded tank it wouldn't fit properly and even look odd, contrasting with the straight lines of the chassis.
http://motorbicycling.com/f38/diy-tank-even-if-you-cant-17323.html
Well said. I saw this post yesterday and almost responded, then decided to leave well enough alone. Now here I am with a reply. Shape of a tank is a subjective thing. Three different guys will fill the same frame space with three different designs. I chose my Worksman shape for a number of reasons just like Barelyawake said. It came down to available tools, materials, and manufacturing techniques. I looked at dozens of shapes and felt the Reading Standard type tank was the best look (in my opinion) to fit to the Worksman frame and would be fairly easy to manufacture (I was wrong there). I also do a curved sided tank for the Schwinn straightbar frames. The Schwinn version is a pain in the ass to build and requires more labor on my part. As for materials, I use stainless because in my day job we manufacture entirely from stainless so it is now my material of choice and kind of my trademark. It would take a whole weekend to build a one off. It takes four solid hours plus materials to kick out a generic model. I ain't getting rich building gas tanks and at $300 they are an absolute bargin. If you held one in your hands you would understand.
 

hoodoo

Member
Dec 26, 2009
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Buda, Texas
Baiirdco:

Below I have included your whole post below mine so I will not be accused of taking out of context but don't these comments seem a little condescending?

"but you all want it for nothing"

"this is my biggest pet peeve with this "hobby." people with cheap bikes and a cheap motor kit think everything else should be just as cheap."

One, I build my bikes (I don't even consider them "glorified mopeds" as you state in your post), from new (and expensive, over $300 bucks a pop) industrial bikes. I add on and modify within my limited ability all sorts of aftermarket parts. Adding the engine and aftermarket parts etc probably puts 750 or so worth of cash in my bikes (I dont' consider this cheap) and that is not counting the labor (I can see why these things cost around 2000 built up if you want something fancy and with no labor). It's a true (and growing) hobby, I do it solely for my own fun. I admit (and I said so in my first post) you get a great investment with the 300 buck custom tanks if you are building a single or an investment bike, but like you admit there isn't any variety. If you don't want variety these are great tanks. If I could afford to build five or six bikes at least one would have a scarapat tank but the others would have different shapes because I need variety. I also like variety in the forum but no one has to provide it but some are apparently like me, they like the road less traveled.

It is a "hobby" of course, so if someone wants variety you have to do it yourself and I want to encourage more folks to take a shot at these vintage style bikes because they are a hoot and are a link to our history, especially those that try to tribute the old motorcycles. Simple tank covers can create a lot of shapes. Tank covers can be cheaply made out of just about anything.
They just need an underlying inexpensive as practical tank which doesn't hav to be pretty, just work and fit.

I don't consider the cheap chinese rectagular tanks I got for 20 bucks even close to the custom tank quality. I don't expect them to last long. They are extremely thin and I suspect poorly brazed or welded, they are also a bit oversize. Scarapat's tanks are first class but he put a lot of intelligent design into them and at least from my vantage point he did a lot of extra work to make them a generic tribute to the old style tanks.

I disagree with you when you state that somehow these cheap chinese tanks (I am not including the tanks that come with the chinese engines as they don't "fit" the BTR concept) cost the same to build as the custom tanks.
The time/effort/materials that go into custom tanks are significantly more as they cost material and labor wise and no accusations of price gouging are made. If you can afford them go for them.

However for this hobby to prosper we need all kinds of folks pitching in. Some folks by providing custom parts can make a buck or two here and there and that is great....that helps the hobby grow.

A friend of mine saw my first bike and then built a much better one than I did at a lot less cost both in material and labor. He found a used worksman, used plastic leaf blower tanks he had and covered them with bent metal and screws (you can't see the screws). No welding. No powder coating (the originals weren't powdercoated), but his bike is a head turner and gives great homage to the early Cyclone motorcycles. With a new baby at home he couldn't afford to put the dollars I put into my first clumsy effort yet he did a far superior and faster job (he was able to learn from my mistakes which helped). He has about 500 dollars in his bike with really limited labor (even has a awesome headlight he made from an ashtray and cheap oil lamp parts). Just because it's inexpensive, doesn't make it cheap. It's not a stretching frame, but not all want stretched frames.

I think it is great that Scarapart is offering a generic BTR set up for those who can afford to take short cuts, it is a real service to the hobby as it gets some very nice bikes out their fast, but some folks want (or need) to either to save $ or perhaps just "build it themselves" even if they don't have a garage or shop. Me, because I want several bikes for my purposes, I have got to cut corners on costs but that still doesn't stop me from buying quality after market stuff when I can find it and afford it.

Now if Scarapat could make twelve different styles and keep the price down to 300, now would it not be a wonderful world? I never asked or expected that. What I was suggesting was a small generic underhang tank be it rectangular or rounded that would fit in between the bars of a worksman and thereby be extremely flexible for different style coverings that could be made from anything from wood, to fiberglass, metal, or anything the builder felt comfortable. Surely that could be produced for a lot less than the near sculpted masterpieces? If I had welding skills I would try it myself. Buying something like this would be better than having to scrounge up a tank and have to modify and spend a lot of time on it.



i'm not sure what exactly you're looking for when trying to decipher your rambling post, but i gotta say, custom tanks ain't cheap. the same craftsmanship goes into a crappy china two stroke bicycle tank as that of a high dollar custom motorcycle tank. but you all want it for nothing. or at least, less than the cost of the motor kit.

sportscarpat makes worksman tanks, and they're top notch. but you want him to make 12 different styles to fit whatever kinda look you're going for? that just ain't gonna happen. we're not building reproduction motorcycles here. we're making glorified mopeds.

and there's no money in it.

this is my biggest pet peeve with this "hobby." people with cheap bikes and a cheap motor kit think everything else should be just as cheap.

go try to get a custom made exhaust for your car, or a set of custom made wheels, or aftermarket lights, tank, paint, tires, friggen valve caps...

if you want a 19.99 custom tank from walmart, all you gotta do is learn chinese and show them there's a market for it.

then you can buy some socks, a new sleeping bag, beef jerky, and a new tank for your bike all at the same place.
 

sportscarpat

Bonneville Bomber the Salt Flat record breaker
Jun 25, 2009
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Generic is something that is general, common, or inclusive rather than specific, unique, or selective.

Exclusive typically means not with other things or not including other things.

My tanks are far from common. I prefer exclusive. Try to buy one and you'll see what I mean. Typically a minimum two week lead time, sometimes a month. That's pretty exclusive if you ask me! Have you seen my stretch and loop frames, yet? Those are VERY exclusive. Maybe I should come out with a "generic" line of tanks. By the way, the only reason I commented here was because I saw my name come up a couple times.
Pat
 

camlifter

Active Member
May 4, 2009
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acme labs marion ohio
i was making tanks for awhile, bought a worksman bike just to use as a patern so the tanks could fit exactly inside the frame, made a mold and started making them. i soon found out that the worksman bikes have so much varitation from bike to bike that the tanks that fit my bike perfectly would not fit on just any worksman, so you have to make them smaller so they will fit any worksman, sometimes the worksmans are so far off that the gaps between the tank and the bars just don't look right, then the customer is unhappy, most makes of bikes end up being this way, there all a little differaent. so the tanks have to be generic in order to fit. unless you have the bike to work off of, which makes them a one off build theres no choice but for them to be generic.
 

hoodoo

Member
Dec 26, 2009
120
23
18
Buda, Texas
Sportscarpat (I keep wanting to write you as scarapat, probably due to the influence of the film
"Scaramouche"):

Nothing in my posts criticized or criticize your truly outstanding efforts. I have the deepest respect for the quality of your work and for the amount of work that has to go into your actual tanks: the 300 is indeed a bargain and if someone wants an investment quality bike or a stand alone head turner, this is the way to go. However, gold is also a great investment as is great art, however some of us have to pay bills and get satisfaction out of painting something ourselves. :) By the smiley face please note this last sentence is not intended as sarcasm but merely stating the obvious. All I am stating is that it would be nice if there was some generic undersize underslung tank out there, simply made, of perhaps not the most expensive materials, that could serve as the fuel source and what goes under the "cover". It could be easily installed then the builder could let their own imaginations (with perhaps a nod to history) have free rein. I think the curved tank cover (sides are curved only) that MarkV built (he is covering two square plastic leaf blower tanks) looks great on the unaltered worksman frame (as does your "Reading" style which indeed are true "motorcycle" quality tanks).

With your expertise, do you have an estimate on what such a "simple" tank might cost if available? I realize that even a "simple" tank isn't really simple. As it would be covered, no cosmetics needed?

Also, not all original bikes were "pretty". Sometimes the builders weren't too artful in their designs. Sometimes the ugly duckling can be fun also. I personally don't like the look of the simple cylinder tanks on some of the old bikes, however, they existed and that is why I will eventually have to have an early Cleveland tribute in my fellow gang members's "collection". Besides they all turn into swans when they are ridden. My bikes, as flawed as they are, have put an involuntary smile on all that have ridden them.

I just want to see more BTR style (including "cruiser motorcycle") bikes out there.


Well said. I saw this post yesterday and almost responded, then decided to leave well enough alone. Now here I am with a reply. Shape of a tank is a subjective thing. Three different guys will fill the same frame space with three different designs. I chose my Worksman shape for a number of reasons just like Barelyawake said. It came down to available tools, materials, and manufacturing techniques. I looked at dozens of shapes and felt the Reading Standard type tank was the best look (in my opinion) to fit to the Worksman frame and would be fairly easy to manufacture (I was wrong there). I also do a curved sided tank for the Schwinn straightbar frames. The Schwinn version is a pain in the ass to build and requires more labor on my part. As for materials, I use stainless because in my day job we manufacture entirely from stainless so it is now my material of choice and kind of my trademark. It would take a whole weekend to build a one off. It takes four solid hours plus materials to kick out a generic model. I ain't getting rich building gas tanks and at $300 they are an absolute bargin. If you held one in your hands you would understand.
 
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sportscarpat

Bonneville Bomber the Salt Flat record breaker
Jun 25, 2009
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Camlifter,
The Worksman INB tank was a challenge because of the fact you mention, all frames being slightly different. The early frames are way different and not a good match for my tanks. Those frames have a different shape to the top tube and down tube. I have been through dozens of frames and seen pictures of many more with my tanks. I have even discussed this issue at length with Worksman. The center tubes are eyeballed by the brazers at the factory. The rear triangle of the frame also suffers from this. The dropouts are placed in a jig, but the frame stay tubes are located by hand. I have had to custom fit a few of my oil tank/tool boxes because of this. When I have a frame in my shop I can custom fit both tanks within reason. Look at my custom frames and you will find very clean gaps from frame to tank. That is because I build the entire frame in a jig and go one step further in the gas tank area by using a custom jig for the top and middle tubes. I also custom fit the oil tank/tool box to match the rear wheel arc. Like I said, VERY exclusive.
 

sportscarpat

Bonneville Bomber the Salt Flat record breaker
Jun 25, 2009
1,844
485
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california
Sportscarpat (I keep wanting to write you as scarapat, probably due to the influence of the film
"Scaramouche"):
With your expertise, do you have an estimate on what such a "simple" tank might cost if available? I realize that even a "simple" tank isn't really simple. As it would be covered, no cosmetics needed?
I could make a tank like your suggesting, but prefer to express myself a little more in my work. A simple tank without mounts would still run over $100 and with a mounting system about $150 total. As for the whole Sportscarpat thing, my brother calls me sport scar pat because I broke my collar bone a few months back and now have a nice scar to show for it.
 

Venice Motor Bikes

Custom Builder / Dealer/Los Angeles
Mar 20, 2008
7,333
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Los Angeles, CA.
I don't understand why you keep calling Pat's tanks (& others) generic looking??? (there's probably only 20 or so in existance?)
I agree with Pat, they're very exclusive!
 
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camlifter

Active Member
May 4, 2009
1,033
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36
acme labs marion ohio
pat, you make an awesome product, i was just pointing out that bicycles now days are so inconsistent that any tank made for them other than the one that comes in the kit is really a custom tank.
 

bairdco

a guy who makes cool bikes
Aug 18, 2009
6,537
264
63
living the dream in southern california
hoodoo, "...a little condescending..."

my whole post was totally condescending, not just a little. that's why i apologized. i took your title too literally with my own angst.

i get pretty PO'd about people's ideas (in general) about how much stuff should cost. a lot of people think that if the bike's cheap and the engine kit's cheap, every other part should be just as cheap. and from a business standpoint, or a custom builder's standpoint, it really gets under my skin when people ask me how much my bikes are, then tell me they can get the same thing on craigslist for 300 bucks.

so i'll apologize again for what appears to be a drunken, personal attack on you. didn't mean it that way.

but as a sweeping generalization of the prevailing attitude towards the cost of custom parts a lot of the toy making hobbyists have, i stand by what i wrote.
 

mp43sniper

New Member
Jan 6, 2011
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PA
i'm not sure what exactly you're looking for when trying to decipher your rambling post
You, sir, have just made my day.

I build custom firearms (translation for those of you in Rio Linda - guns), and it's amazing the amount of people that want the uber perfect, ultra radical, most perfect copy of the rarest coolest most awesomely sick WWII German rifle ever made ..................but it shouldn't cost more than a thousand bucks AND IT BETTER BE PERFECT! Oh, and we want custom add on stuff too for the same price. And shipping should be included.

Craig
 

cannonball2

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2010
3,682
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Colonial Coast USA.
Here is a tank from my current build. The bike is on a very light weight theme. I wanted a below the bar tank to keep the bike looking light. It is made from a piece of 3" exhaust tube that has been ovaled. It is very simple, yet nostalgic as many of the first motorized bikes before the board track era used simple tanks made from tubing/cylinders. The sediment bowl adds a little nostalga as well. The mounting nuts will be replaced with chrome acorns. It is of course not represenitive of anything but lends an older look.
 

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Tinsmith

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2009
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Nice tank Cannonball! I agree with most everything that has been said regarding Pat's tanks and the challenge of building one. Pat's tanks look to be top notch and for anyone who has built one they know what they are looking at. Hope to see one first hand sometime. I just finished my first tank for my worksman build and the statements about the irregularities in the frame are for real. While I have only seen mine, it was out of plumb in almost every way. Not a bad frame, I'll probably get another, but if you are trying to build a gas or oil tank it could be a challenge. I have the industrial frame and have tried to avoid all the compound bends even though I have all the equipment to do it. Pat is not getting rich making the tanks he does. I will try to get a picture of my tank up so you can see another version of what can be done. Hopefully tomorrow Silverbear and I will start on a tank for his cantilever frame. We'll let you know how that goes. Dan
 
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