Bairdco Racing Series, September 15th at Adams

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bairdco

a guy who makes cool bikes
Aug 18, 2009
6,537
264
63
living the dream in southern california
the second race in the series will be september 15th, at Adams Motorsports Park.

http://www.adamsmotorsportspark.com/

if you missed the last one, you've got plenty of time to plan and no excuses!

besides some of the best motored-bike racing on the planet, i've got some other ideas in the works to put this event over the top!

Details coming soon...
 

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magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
511
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OrangeCounty, CA
I'm counting the days until the next race. I'm feeling more confident on my Italian and most likely compete with it for the first time at this race. I know this time will be better than the last and am curious about what you have up your sleeve.
 

SoSauty

New Member
Feb 4, 2011
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Bako, CA
Eh Safe,

I can tune down an upright comfort style bike to 1500W. You should best me easily, if so I'll tune up to 2000W and hope to persue you. Come on around and have some fun, share building tips with others, ect. .
(Edit: @1500W non-aero top speed 28mph at Grange; 30mph at Adams)

April 7 Grange had 10-12 to run a lo-power class. June 2 Grange had fewer, and June 16 Adams only had 4 to line up for heat1.

Really think an all tricked out 1K electric at 30+mph on a kart track would certainly get noticed and discussed.

Are you selling 1K racing e-bikes?

SoSauty
 
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bairdco

a guy who makes cool bikes
Aug 18, 2009
6,537
264
63
living the dream in southern california
yup. that's them. :)

they also played on an episode of "biker build off" at chica's garage, when johnny chop was still alive.

gabe, the singer, owns the back house i live in. al, the guitarist, tours as a sound and guitar tech with clutch, bad religion, thin lizzy, and a bunch of other bands. he also played with joy division.

hoping to have a keg or two, also...;)
 

bairdco

a guy who makes cool bikes
Aug 18, 2009
6,537
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living the dream in southern california
hey safety, the "monster" bikes will always have a place to run at my races. it's like having evil knievel show up with a jet bike at the drags. gotta keep pushing the limits. but they'll be in the unlimited class, which in my opinion, is whatever you can possibly build, as long as it has pedals and vaguely resembles a bicycle.

i totally agree with what you're typing about keeping the "slower" bikes as close to bicycles as possible, and hopefully one day we can build functional, reliable bikes that will work on or off the track, and be comercially available.

we're taking the cheap two stroke to it's limits right now. the fastest bikes are very closely matched, and it's becoming a battle of riders against riders, instead of just who has the fastest bike.

it's also taking it's toll on these crappy little engines. there's a lot more failures when you're pushing them beyond their limits.

as far as the ebikes go, i've seen what luke and thud can do (and etard) and while impressive and exciting, aesthetically? ugliest freakin' bikes i've ever seen (no offense...;)

obviously, the more stock 2 strokers and slower ebikes i can get to show up is a big goal for me. not just financially (although it would be nice to turn a profit, or at least break even on track rental :)) but the more people who try racing, the more people that'll get hooked.

that means more hp parts will be developed and sold, bikes will be built better, and we won't have as many death traps on the streets. with bent wheels and cheap chinese parts breaking off.

as always, i'm open to all suggestions, comments, criticisms, and any wacky ideas anyone has. i'm doing this because i love racing, and i respect what other racers have to say. i don't want anyone leaving my races unhappy.
 
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magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
511
1
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OrangeCounty, CA
What about a class that has a top speed of 35-40mph. If you go over 35-40 you’re disqualified. All bikes can race against each other 2 stroke, 4stroke, e-bike, mopeds. I’ve seen a few radar guns at the previous races that can be used to keep everyone honest. Mechanics, gear ratio and riding ability would make for some great racing, as long as the track is set up right and there is enough room for clean passing
 

SoSauty

New Member
Feb 4, 2011
147
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0
Bako, CA
What about a class that has a top speed of 35-40mph. If you go over 35-40 you’re disqualified. All bikes can race against each other 2 stroke, 4stroke, e-bike, mopeds. I’ve seen a few radar guns at the previous races that can be used to keep everyone honest. Mechanics, gear ratio and riding ability would make for some great racing, as long as the track is set up right and there is enough room for clean passing
I 2nd the "category by speed" concept. My compilation of radar speeds indicate that racers would be more closely matched if grouped by top speeds (or lap times). Our leaders, 2stroke 1:07.5s and mid-4stroke 1:08.5s, turn nearly identical lap times, yet half the 2stroke field was lapped (and so they pulled off the track without finishing).

Racers on the 'edge' could gear down to be more competitive, or if confident run with the faster class further tightening the competition.

The lo-power class would no longer have to scronge around for someone to race with. If too few bikes are sub25mph, look at sub30mph.

E-bikers don't want to race just e-bikes as there's not enough E's to make it exciting. I doubt 2strokers would mind racing others just because it's not a 2stroke. (Sic:sarcasm) No, don't want him in my race, his bike is too quiet. Don't put him in with us, his bike makes thumping noises and doesn't smell like Castrol.(Sic) Seems we could handle mixing it up a bit. Post your view if I'm wrong.

Busnell sells decent radar guns for around $100. Several racers already own 1.

As for lap times, your right Safe, everyone knows pretty much where they run. I favor the top speed idea as it's too easy to block in the curves and/or drive around 'em up the straights (when based on lap times). A guy capable of turning a 1min15sec lap time at 40mph can defeat the chap capable of running 1min13sec at 30mph(due to power, not skill). There are trade offs, but the top speed idea appears to me to favor cornering, braking and riding skill; whereas the lap times seems to favor the power start and drive around 'em in the straights type of dominance. IMO
 
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bairdco

a guy who makes cool bikes
Aug 18, 2009
6,537
264
63
living the dream in southern california
we could totally do that. all we need is a couple people to volunteer. we'd need someone to hold a radar gun, someone to work a stopwatch, and someone to write it all down.

it's hard enough to get you guys to hold a flag for 15 freakin'minutes... :)

with enough racers, we could time the qualifying heats, then bump riders up and down for the finals.

here's a few problems.

without a lot of track time for testing, building a bike that has a limited top speed would be incredibly difficult. you might get exactly 40mph in front of your house, but 42 on the track. or with a tailwind, or a draft, or whatever.

what do we do if someone goes that one or two miles over the cap? black flag them and put bricks in their pockets for the next race?

the fastest 2 stroke bikes at the last races were so evenly matched, we're almost at the point you guys are talking about.

and how about the photo finish in heat one with will on his electric and nostyle on his 48cc chopper? that was the closest race i've ever seen!

i think, ultimately we'll get to that point, with evenly matched bikes, all it takes is more people to show up so it actually matters.
 

SoSauty

New Member
Feb 4, 2011
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Bako, CA
No disqualifying or black flagging involved. If someone is speeding, they get promoted a class.

It isn't the lead racers that aren't matched, it's the guys getting lapped but don't want to hop their commuter ride up to the point where it runs peaky and streaky for rides to the park, drug store, ect. . ..

One only needs to radar 1st/2nd place. Look at the straight, one can tell if the leader is running 3mph faster. Whopee for the person who blips their throttle back to sandbag by 1mph.

We have 20+ 2strokes running top speeds from mid 20s to 40mph. The mid-4strokes run closer but I'll look that up.

There are already several lists of radared speeds floating around.

Yep, my electric was evenly matched with NoStyle's 49cc in heat1. However, when I found out #13 2stoke was running in heat2 I had 10% more power on tap and used it. He cruised around me on the last lap anyhow. Then when I was bumped into the 2stroke class I powered up another 10%(90% charge on 18S vs 100% charge on 20S), different power plant on my bike then. I cut 3seconds off my time from heat1 to heat2 then again in the final. At 6seconds a lap I was close to being able to lap #97(though heat1 was genuine).

Not wanting to be pushy, just keeping the topic open to discussion. Reliable radar of the leaders in every race is the main issue I see.
it's hard enough to get you guys to hold a flag for 15 freakin'minutes...
LOL Agreed
 
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SoSauty

New Member
Feb 4, 2011
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"Do we have any dyno data for these gas bikes?" Not sure on this point. Discussions are 3hp to 10hp for modded 66cc 2strokes, 11hp for water cooled Morinis is claimed but they haven't dominated at the track.

StevilKnevil was 100yds behind the leader and 100yds ahead of 3rd place in a mid4stroke race. Believe he was outputting about 7.5hp/7.5K @ 75%. (Stevil won due to 4stroke last lap DNF)

PaulD won running the 11hp class 6K, @80%peak efficiency 6.5hp. He only weighs 145lb, it was close, and he recorded 238f temp 4min after stopping, yikes!

Nashmoto laps 2nd place BPM electric/1.67K <2hp with his 49cc Honda and later is competitive, 5th out of about 20 2strokes.

A truly dialed in 3K electric @75% 3hp nominal (3.25hp off the start) could nearly match Nashmoto (IMO) running right up in the top 25% of 2strokes.

Uhmmm, very rough rougly.
All of this really hinges on enough racers.
But, this is Adams 15th thread where racing is exciting.
 
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magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
511
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OrangeCounty, CA
Those data points are all over the place.

Seems there are too many factors such as motor power peak, motor power torque, rider weight, rider skill, tires, etc... to arrive at a simple formula with so many differences.

Lap times or top speed seem the easiest external methods to arrive at groupings.

The biggest problem is people "sand bagging" during qualifying by not doing lap times that truly represent the bike and rider.

Here's a thought...

Use some "common sense" and instead of heat races just do qualifying alone... but if someone is on a bike that you know ( based on experience ) should be going faster you just move him into another grouping in spite of present lap times.

Back in the early BMX days they would do stuff like that and place people where they know they "should be" even if it's not based on anything but "common sense".

I doubt any "Monster bike" racer is going to want to get stuck into a low powered class... but if they try (with a "sand bagging" qualifying time) then the "adults" don't let them get away with it. ;)


In the old BMX days you had age and skill levels (novice, intermediate, expert) as groupings. Doing something similiar you might place a novice racer on a slightly faster bike in a group with expert racers of less power. That always makes it fun for the experts to have a greater challenge to pass the less skilled rider. (fresh meat)

Most novice racers prefer the lowest power levels first (as they should) but every once and a while someone with no riding skill shows up with a fast bike... those people should get to race in the low powered class until their lap times improve.

.
the 'common sense' rule sounds good
 

magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
511
1
16
OrangeCounty, CA
There is a group of us that has raced in every event since the Death Race 2011, Baird is one of them, so I believe his 'common sense' of the other racers and their bikes should suffice.

Early registration is a great help to organize the classes, and event.
 

SoSauty

New Member
Feb 4, 2011
147
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Bako, CA
Again, I 2nd you MagRider. I trust Bairds' experience.

Come on out Safe, Baird will have a class for you, me and everyone to run in.

I'm looking at running 2 bikes, hopefully 1 will mix it up in 2stroke or mid-power class, not sure where I fit in and not worried about it at all.

cvlt1
 

bairdco

a guy who makes cool bikes
Aug 18, 2009
6,537
264
63
living the dream in southern california
we're pretty much following the common sense rules, along with the honor system.

we haven't had anyone sandbagging at any of the races when it counts. everyone knows each other, and we all know who the fastest riders are.

in other races, the heats were just people going through the motions. everyone was gonna end up in the final, and despite an attempt at the last grange race to line the top finishers up in the order they placed in the heats, that still didn't work, due entirely to no one enforcing it.

my next race, your position at the start will be determined by your place in the heats. it's simple enough to point out who shouldn't be on the front line and move them back. once this is actually enforced, i don't think anyone's gonna try to elbow in where they don't belong.

when i raced autocross, you started out as a novice, whether you were driving a stock hyundia or a full built crx. after you won, you were put into a class with comparable cars. if you consistantly won your class, they'd bump you up again, to keep you from dominating (at least at the local, small time level. there was a guy in an insane early model mini cooper that raced against the corvettes, and still smoked them. there wasn't a class he wouldn't dominate...)

i have the entry level class for beginners and slower bikes, and unfortunately, there aren't enough riders to seperate the beginners from the experienced racers with low powered bikes.

we haven't had an issue yet where a low powered bike with an experienced racer dominates, but doesn't have the power to be competitive in the next class up. yet. again, this is because there's just not enough guys to make a class for everyone.

the unlimited class is another story. but everyone needs to remember that it's really not that important. it's the minority and more of an exhibition class. not too many people out there are pushing the limits and building 100mph motorcycles with pedals, but for those that want to, i don't care if you're running motorcycle tires and rocket fuel, or an electrical system that can power a motorhead concert. it's exciting, innovative, and will always be "run whatcha brung."

the fact is, until we start getting 100+ riders show up, classes, qualifying, and everything else doesn't even matter. if we classed everyone by skill, by bike, by speed, by age, by wheel size, by displacement, wattage, etc... we'd be running one or two guys on the track at a time.

then we might as well just give out lap time slips.

if 2 dozen ebike guys all show up (or stock 2 strokes, or...) with the same bikes and want to race against each other only, awesome. you've got a class by yourself.

you guys should see where i'm going with this. we don't have 300 bmx'rs on the exact same bikes, we've got a handful of kooks working independently in a dimly lit garage, or in a backyard somewhere, making contraptions out of lawn mowers and erecter sets.

we need the numbers before we can set down the basic rules.

i plan on getting to adams before my next race and running the track different ways to make it more pass-friendly, because i don't think the race should be won in the straights. most of us know how much it sucks to follow someone who's slower in the corners, and then be overpowered in the straightaway. i know i coulda easily buzzed a bunch of rear tires through the S's if i wanted to be a jerk.:)

i also promise you guys this.

every rider's meeting, i'll listen to what you guys want, and if a majority wants a change, we'll change it. don't be afraid to speak up. i'm not doing this to make money (obviously :(, ) i'm doing this because i love to race.
 

Thud

New Member
May 26, 2010
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West Michigan
aesthetically? ugliest freakin' bikes i've ever seen
LMAO!
Baird, I have to agree with you on that point...no really ellagant way to hang batteries on a frame without looking like a cardboard box or IED. Most nerds have a skewd sence of style anyway LOL. Eye of the beholder & all that.

Ive said it before & I'll say it again...my e-bikes don't have the same feel or sence of satisfaction I get from an internal combustion powerd bike (everyone forgets I have both) Not one of my e-bikes has 1/2 the personality of a china girl. they seem very inatimate where a ICE seems to be a compainion.

Just pulled the 50cc china girl out of the frame today for a teardown & some mojo.....if there is one class I want to be competitive in, its the china girl class. (you have a huge weight advantage my friend!) I will prolly be driving out with all my stuff for this event....I'ts back to AHRMA eastern events in 2013. So I need one more bike race to feed the Jones.
T-shirts...SWEET!