Apple juice tank

[silverbear]

Rock Thanks for the gas tank photos.I went into the shop and made one for my rear rack on my trec.It is made from1/4 inch thick pipe. Harleys Dad

Rock & Doc,
Thanks to you both for the great ideas. I'm going to do some experimenting myself. Doc, is that 1/4" stelel pipe? Did you also use silver solder? I've been trying to come up with something for my Worksman paperboy... a cylinder to fit between the top forks. I'm picturing a tennis ball can where the end comes off and can go back on again... solder it shut after the filler and fuel line are in place.
As I recall one I had about a hundred years ago it was a heavier metal than a juice can and had smooth walls. Longer and more narrow... kind of like the opening in my Worksman frame, methinks! Now I'm wondering what I can use to make an angled fill tube & cap. I think I will drill a hole in the end bottom for the fuel line and use a regular shutoff valve... drill the hole a little small, screw in the valve and solder it up. Doc, what did you do for closing up the ends of the pipe?
Can different metals be mixed using silver solder? I'm wondering if I had a fill cap of tin/steel and had an angled extension of copper to the can (steel) would there be a problem? Lots of fittings are available in copper. Thanks for this great thread... I think it is the answer!
Silverbear

 

[Rockenstein]

It's cool this thread has inspired some of you guys

Silverbear that's one of the great things about soldering or brazing...you can easily join dissimilar metals like brass to steel or copper for instance.

Doc that tank is bullet proof...literally I have that same rear rack on my daily rider..I'm interested in seeing how you fasten it down.

That's what I'm working on at the moment...testing out some mounting methods with a test can. I've soldered an L bracket in a slit cut with a thin cutoff wheel. I've made a couple holes in the tester and will solder in a couple bolts too and then try ripping the things outs and beating on them. The easy way would be to use big hose clamps but I don't like the look of those things so I'm trying for something cleaner looking.

 

[DOC BOLM]

Bear The ends are also 1/4 inch plate.They are mig welded in place.I wish i could say i welded them on,but dexter a million dollar robot did it for me.The diamond end caps cover a hole in the end cap where a bearing goes to make a roller.I am going to mount a light over it.The fill hole will go flush with the tank when i make a short nipple to go between them.Harleys Dad

 

[DOC BOLM]

Rock my plan is to drill 4 holes in the bottom of the tank and weld closed nuts in them these nuts are about 3/4 inch long with 1/4x24 threads in them and are closed on the end to keep them from leaking.I also put a 1x2 inch magnet on the inside after i cleaned it out.Harleys Dad

 

[DOC BOLM]

Rock i found one 5 inch muffler clamp in the shop.They are used on our big trucks stacks.They are about 1 inch wide an 5 inch inside.chrome plated.I will get some more in the morning and take some photos.They will be better than welding the nuts on. HD

 

[silverbear]

I found an expired fire extinguisher in my "stuff" and also noticed the shape of a propane tank for a torch that is also the right for my needs. I did some mock fitting and the fire extinguisher is just right for the Worksman paperboy cruiser. I want it to fit lengthwise between the two cross bars. The smaller diameter propane tank is just right for the 1940 Schwinn DX cruiser, also to fit between the crossbars. Posted are photos of both frames with a too small aluminum tank taped into place on the Worksman. You can see what I have in mind, though. The fire extinguisher is the same diameter as the tank in the picture and almost half again as long. Because these need to fit between the bars the filler tube and cap need to be offset and preferably angled upward. It occurred to me that the bullet end of the proposed tanks where the torch fitting is on the propane tank and the nozzle is on the fire X. could be where the fill tube connects. That would save a lot of soldering and fitting. I also realized that even if the fill tube cap was higher than the tank, there would be an air space in the tank above where fuel would enter. Then I had the thought that two problems could be solved with one solution by fitting a small air bleed at the top of the bottom end. It could even be a fuel shut off valve. That would allow a complete fill on the tank and if the bleeder were a fuel shutoff with a short run fuel line coming off and upwards under the seat then you could have a gas cap which actually seals and not have any leaking of gas which I find so tiresome. No air lock since the bleeder valve is there. At the lower end of the tank bottom is where the fuel line and shutoff would be leading to the carburetor. Anybody see any problem with this? The hardest part would be in coming up with the fill tube connection to the tank, the offset bend upwards and the fill tube cap. I think I'll spend some time staring at things in the plumbing and propane sections of the hardware seeing if some kind of fittings look right. I have an old Coleman white gas tank for a camping stove which might give a donor end for the fill tube with a brass no leak cap. It is on the small side, but I'm the one filling my tank and a small copper funnel like for Coleman stoves and such would keep things no drip. I think it could be made to work. And I think the same process could work with either a used Fire X tank or propane tank. For that matter a behind the seat squat propane tank, as used with propane camping lights might make a nice behind the seat tank with pretty good fuel capacity, if nothing else as a backup tank. Rock, do you see what your brainstorm has started here? If my thinking is off, please steer me in the right direction.

Two questions:
First, what are fire extinguisher chemicals and would residue of some sort create a problem for a gas tank? How could one flush it thoroughly?
Second, if soldering is involved how much better is it to use a butane pencil torch as opposed to a propane bottle type of torch, which is what I have? Is there any reason for me to invest in a pencil torch?
Silverbear

 

[markeatmark]

That is so cool. man the ideas never stop. thanks for sharing

 

[Rockenstein]

if soldering is involved how much better is it to use a butane pencil torch as opposed to a propane bottle type of torch, which is what I have? Is there any reason for me to invest in a pencil torch?
Silverbear

I used a pencil torch because I had one and it was better suited for the light duty job at hand than my propane torch or O/A torch. A propane bottle torch should work fine in your case given that the material you intend to work on will likely be much thicker than my apple juice can. I think an appropriate sized discarded fire extinguisher would make an nice tank and if you washed it out real good I doubt you'd have any residual chemical issues...I'm excited to see the finished product

Retmachinist made this nice under seat tank, he posted it in this thread.

 

[Rockenstein]

Made a little more progress yesterday evening...

After trying a few different mounting ideas on a tester can I finally settled on an idea that made sense, was easy to work with, provided enough strength and would work well with the leather covering to be applied in final step. I think the end result should be pretty clean looking...ie: no visible attachment to the bike frame from most viewing angles. As the photos show I used silver bearing solder on the tank mount parts I formed up out of 24 gauge sheet and on the frame itself I silver brazed on a couple of 18 gauge ears to run the mounting bolts through. I need to tidy up the mounting ears a little more plus clean off the brazing flux and as well I need to get some proper length bolts but all in all I think this setup should hold it well as it is quite rigid.

.

 

[george_n_texas]

How hard do you think it would be to use 2 apple juice cans...mount the fill tube/cap and the fuel line out then solder the 2 cans together in the middle. Do you think the solder would work or would ya have to weld?

 

[silverbear]

Made a little more progress yesterday evening...

After trying a few different mounting ideas on a tester can I finally settled on an idea that made sense, was easy to work with, provided enough strength and would work well with the leather covering to be applied in final step. I think the end result should be pretty clean looking...ie: no visible attachment to the bike frame from most viewing angles. As the photos show I used silver bearing solder on the tank mount parts I formed up out of 24 gauge sheet and on the frame itself I silver brazed on a couple of 18 gauge ears to run the mounting bolts through. I need to tidy up the mounting ears a little more plus clean off the brazing flux and as well I need to get some proper length bolts but all in all I think this setup should hold it well as it is quite rigid.

.

Excellent! That looks really secure. I think you're coming up with a great alternative for an affordable, behind the seat tank that looks great, too. It is the kind of project that can help winter go by a little quicker... tinkering in January when the snow lies in drifts outside and thinking about how cool the little tank will look on a bike. I get a lot of satisfaction from this sort of thing and I can see that you are made the same way.
I've located a small brass fire extinguisher to experiment with, will hope to have it in a couple of weeks. It is roughly the size of your Apple can tank. I hope it will work. More immediately I'm working on an aluminum tank of the same kind of dimensions which I got from my small engine guy for free. It was dented and I've done "body work" on it with jb weld, sanding it out, adding a little more, sanding it out... giving it more time and effort than it really deserves considering how it looks after primer and paint. Not so good. It is hard to get a really smooth, invisible repair under shiny paint. So I decided to cover it in the same black elk hide I used for the seat it will sit behind and which I have on hand for making moccasins and mukluks. I cut everything out yesterday after making cardboard pattern pieces and am in the middle of stitching it up with black sinew today. It's going to look nice, much better than it would have without the leather. Working on this little tank project and redoing the seat last week has me thinking in a kind of leather frame of mind and I would like to experiment next with leather handlebar grips. I hate the smell of those stock ones and would like to immediately remove the offending rubber right a way. I was thinking to use those aftermarket foam grips unless there is some sort of gel grip out there flexible enough to fit over the throttle control tube, then stitch up the leather covering, same for the left hand grip. I'd like something that looks good, but also feels really nice and cuts down on vibration. I'll come up with something.
This is fun, isn't it!
SB

 

[Rockenstein]

How hard do you think it would be to use 2 apple juice cans...mount the fill tube/cap and the fuel line out then solder the 2 cans together in the middle. Do you think the solder would work or would ya have to weld?

Anything is possible George, you could take 2 cans and sling them over the top tube like saddle bags and then use a Y fitting to drain them both into one line. If you wanted to set them up side by side on a rear rack there are a few ideas coming to mind that would make it feasible. Silver bearing solder would likely do what you need, sliver brazing is stronger but maybe a little trickier to work with on the thin metal cans if you don't have the right equipment. I have a Smith Little torch that works well for soldering, brazing and welding thin'ish metals. My butane powered pencil torch was perfect for the soldering work I needed to do on this tin can tank project though....they are dirt cheap on eBay these days.

 

[Rockenstein]

Silverbear...

Yes my mounting plan seems to be working out well, a few good bumps in the road will be the final judge though I suppose...my fingers are crossed

Please post a picture of your seat and tank, I would love to see your elk hide covering work. Maybe I can learn a thing or 2 from you in that regards because I have never sewn a stitch of leather in my life! I think I have the right stuff to do it with as I explained to the nice the lady at the sewing shop what I was wanting to do when I went looking for needles and good thread. I do get great satisfaction from projects like this, when I dragged that old junker home my kids were like when are you going to finish it dad and then looked at me completely dumbfounded when I said "oh maybe by next spring" ...lol!! Being teenagers they don't get yet what it's like to be middle aged and have a hobby where most of the enjoyment comes from just have something to do that keeps your hands and brain busy for an evening.

In that respect I'm glad I'm not a teenager

 

[silverbear]

Silverbear...

Yes my mounting plan seems to be working out well, a few good bumps in the road will be the final judge though I suppose...my fingers are crossed

Please post a picture of your seat and tank, I would love to see your elk hide covering work. Maybe I can learn a thing or 2 from you in that regards because I have never sewn a stitch of leather in my life! I think I have the right stuff to do it with as I explained to the nice the lady at the sewing shop what I was wanting to do when I went looking for needles and good thread. I do get great satisfaction from projects like this, when I dragged that old junker home my kids were like when are you going to finish it dad and then looked at me completely dumbfounded when I said "oh maybe by next spring" ...lol!! Being teenagers they don't get yet what it's like to be middle aged and have a hobby where most of the enjoyment comes from just have something to do that keeps your hands and brain busy for an evening.

In that respect I'm glad I'm not a teenager

In between stripping my 39 elgin frame (zip strip is doing it's bubbly stuff at the moment), I'll post some photos. Here are some of the seat. I have another earlier in the process which I'll re-size and post later this afternoon. Below are pictures of the bike (with seat) as I found it and brought it home from the dump. This is on what I now know is a 1950 Straight Bar DX Schwinn. The other pictures show it on the bike after paint, fenders and temporary middleweight wheels. (Too broke to order the new heavy duty rims from bikeworldusa). I carefully took the seat apart after shooting a little penetratng oil on 50+ year old nuts, not wanting to break anything. Then I put all the metal parts through a wire wheel affixed to an old washing machine motor. What I could was taken down to bare metal, then primed and painted in black engine enamel. I added to the single layer of burlap which passed as "padding", but not enough for my bony old butt, so two layers of carpet padding were added, held in place with dabs of contact cement. Then I found a suitable piece of black elk hide which I normally use for making moccasins. I like the elk hide because it is supple, yet stronger than deer hide. It is commonly used around here for making Mukluks (lined Indian winter boots). I also use it for making medicine pouches, wallets, my check book holder, my cell phone case (fringed). I don't consider myself any kind of leather master craftsman, but that doesn't stop me from making my own shoes and such, imperfect as they may be. Partly I'm cheap of necessity, but also I just like making stuff, whether out of wood, metal, leather or words. It is all the same energy.
The last photo shows the tank with the leather just kind of draped over it and set in the general area where it is going. I have yet to decide on a rear rack or no rear rack. Anyway it gives an idea of what is going to be. More photos will follow showing the tank in progress being stitched, at about the half way point right now. Time to remove the zip-strip and bubbled up paint. Later...
SB

 

[silverbear]

Sorry I couldn't find the pictures of the seat taken apart and the process of fitting the hide cover. I don't know what happened to those photos. Weird. Anyway, here are some of the gas tank leather cover. I made this one in four pieces, using scraps from moccasin making. It might look better with three pieces instead. That way the horizontal seam could be either at the back or on the bottom. The finished horizontal seam on this one needs to be torn out and re stitched. I did that one first in not enough light last evening. The stitching on the ends is more like it. I use something called 'sinew' which is synthetic, quite strong and can be used full thickness as in making moccasins, or thinner if you halve it, quarter it or eighth it. It is waxed and I have rolled several full thicknesses together to make bow strings... that's how strong it is. I'm using about an eighth thickness since the glovers needles I got in town the other day are on the small side with small eyes. Carpet thread would also work well for this as it is very strong. I work with about a yard at a time and use two needles, one on each end of the yard length of thread. First I use some contact cement to basically glue the first large piece of leather in place on the tank. I leave all of the edges free of glue for a couple inches back so that I can stretch and manipulate the leather pieces to fit together. The leather doesn't overlap, but one piece fits against the other in a kind of butt joint. the stitching draws the two edges together snugly, going from one side to the other... one needle this way and the other that way, then back again, criss crossing. It ends up laying down pretty flat. I came up with this way of joining pieces when I first made leather covers for custom knife handles... again out of elk hide to go with a matching sheath. It makes a very nice look for a hunting, skinning, or filet type of knife. I made a mumber of those for people and they always draw nice comments. The stitching on this tank is a little rough, but it will largely be hidden under the seat and anyway it should look like what it is... handmade with care, but handmade and not machine made, so irregular. Anybody can do this and some can do it better than I can. I hope this is a help and at least a kind of starting point for you. You'll find the way to do this which feels right for you. That's what I do with everything. That way what you do ends up your own... just like what you have done with your apple juice gas can. Very inventive and highly cool. You da man!
SB

 

[WayneC]

Rock,
OK, either I missed something in the photos or I'm dense. I can see no evidence on the ends of the can that the juice was removed by conventional means. So how did you get the juice out without leaving holes in the can to be patched or the end replaced?
WC

 

[Rockenstein]

Good question WayneC...I can see how wondering about that would leave someone scratching their head

I punctured the one end of the can with a large nail where the work hole (pictured in the 4th photo in my first post) was cut out. A second breather hole was punctured roughly where the fill cap was to be located so the juice would drain at a reasonable pace.

Silverbear...thank you for posting pics of your handy work with the leather and as well the info on how you have sewn it together. Your post will likely be something I will reference more than once when I attempt to cover mine

--------

So I've made a little more progress...I know, I work slow...last night in that I added a strut that attaches to the seat post clamp and I sealed up the work hole at the one end. I added the strut just to help stabilize it as I was afraid if it took a good bump it would cause a nasty dent in the area of the lower mounts. I was not afraid the thing would get ripped off or fall off as I can tell you on my test can I pretty much ruined the thing trying to bust up my solder job on the prototype mounts! Anyway as for covering up the work hole all went well it appears as I've pressure tested it to about 20 psi and there's not a bubble in sight...yea!! I wanted to get a coat of paint on it today but I spent most of the day doing car repairs since it was the first decent day we have had here in a while and the car needed a couple front end parts installed before winter hits. Maybe tonight I'll take a moment and get a coat of paint on it so I can start with the covering job tomorrow night.

.

 

[Goat Herder]

Awesome Idea Rockenstein! I just stumbled onto this thread. Now I got plans brewing up.. This sorta thing never occurred to me. Thats what keeps me reading this great forum. Thanks for sharing! Looks very clean too!

 

[silverbear]

Your tank looks great and I know this winter I'll be referring back to this thread as I attempt to make my soldering look half way as good as yours. Do you think there will be a rust problem inside these tanks? I know there is a coating stuff for redoing old rusty tanks. I guess we'll find out, eh?
Glad you can use the leather tank photos for a starting point. I finished the tank cover the other day and then made matching covers for the handlebar grips. I'll shoot pictures of them later today. I think on the next leather covered tank I'll do the sewing up another way which may look better and go faster. When I do, I'll post photos of that, but it probably won't be until winter. One good place to find suitable leather is a place like goodwill. Find a suede jacket with a tear or bad zipper... something which makes it very cheap. The back side of the suede is smooth leather and will be unworn, unstained and like new. In one jacket is plenty enough for a seat, a tank and grips. Just a thought.

If I can get them to load there are two pictures of a brass fire extinguisher I just bought on eBay. Paid more than I wanted, but this is what they go for. I want to experiment with this one and my hope is to be able to use the fitting at the end as the point where I attach a filler pipe which will angle upwards and extend a little above the level of the tank. I don't know yet what hardware I'll use. First the tank and then I'll find the hardware. I may not have to solder anything to do this part of the conversion. At the bottom side at the other end will be the gas shut off and line to the carb. This will get soldered. There will also be a vent up above, probably at the same end as the gas line. it will probably also be a gas shutoff valve as that is simple and if I want I can run a short line up under the seat. No more gas spills out the cap! The lettering on the tank is a decal, so it should clean up nicely and shine like nobody's business. I wonder if clear coat would keep it looking good. Anyway, this is what I found that looked suitable. There are others which have a handle on one end and a nozzle on the other. I didn't see how that could work. I just want to try one. In the end I think your apple juice can or a variation of that is what I will be making. I'm on the lookout for a tennis ball can for a tank to go between crossbars. The price is certainly right with cans and with a nice paint job or clear coat over the tin as it is or covered in leather it is a winner. I ordered a pencil tip torch, but one which uses propane, also a cheap little butane one. I will be a soldering fool this winter. See what you've started?
SB

 

[Rockenstein]

Thought I'd quickly load up a couple new pics...

I got a light coat of Tremclad on the tank last night before I hit the kitchen to do some baking for today's feast...lol...and it looks not so bad as is but I am going to cover it and add some fringes. I'm after that old school under seat tool bag look...I'm on the look out for some buckles to simulate where or how a tool bag would close.


Silverbear that brass lump you bought should work out well, brass is super easy to work with and durable too. I'll re-read your post and do some more replying later today, have to get out of the shop and back to socializing before they all come looking for me


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