anyone ever built a engine for use with nitromethane?

[Mikenite]

motor is in pieces about 3 feet away from me waiting for me to get off my lazy but and measure the tolerances of things and put them into CAD

the frame is what im working on right now.... i dearly hate welding aluminum....
but i should be done with the frame by next week.... also thinking of a possible carbon fiber front fork...
still in the process of working up a good idea for the tank

 

[nhssdf4]

Also, i read the post about adding it to your gas.... What concentration should i use and how much to a gallon?

i have i think 20% in the car.

 

[nhssdf4]

motor is in pieces about 3 feet away from me waiting for me to get off my lazy but and measure the tolerances of things and put them into CAD

the frame is what im working on right now.... i dearly hate welding aluminum....
but i should be done with the frame by next week.... also thinking of a possible carbon fiber front fork...
still in the process of working up a good idea for the tank

What type of bike will it be??
and a carbon tank would be kool!

You should also try to make it pretty aerodynamic and I say that you will have to spend TONS on a wheel set.... Ceramic bearings, and a shifter kit, and aluminum everything!

And what CAD do you use?

 

[Mikenite]

*DISCLAIMER*
THIS IS PROLLY GOING TO COAUSE YOUR MOTOR TO BLOW TO PIECES I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR DO I THINK SOMEBODY THAT IS NOT AS CRAZY AS I AM TO TRY THIS UNLESS THEY HAVE A HEAP OF MOTORS LYING AROUND FOR WHEN YOURS BLOWS UP


that being said
what brand nitro fuel do you have?
if you dont know for sure the percentage of nitro to oil i would not use it just to be safe...
also i would not use the fuel if has been sitting for a while it could be contaminated
since the fuel is hygroscopic it can attract water..this is bad news

i would recommend getting ahold of fuel with a lower nitro percentage

i would replace one ounce of oil in your gas mixture to nitro fuel

but like i said no clue how this will end yet
and im planing on using just straight r/c fuel
and i have not really put much thought in to mixing with gas
or a ratio that would work best

 

[nhssdf4]

*DISCLAIMER*
THIS IS PROLLY GOING TO COAUSE YOUR MOTOR TO BLOW TO PIECES I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR DO I THINK SOMEBODY THAT IS NOT AS CRAZY AS I AM TO TRY THIS UNLESS THEY HAVE A HEAP OF MOTORS LYING AROUND FOR WHEN YOURS BLOWS UP


that being said
what brand nitro fuel do you have?
if you dont know for sure the percentage of nitro to oil i would not use it just to be safe...
also i would not use the fuel if has been sitting for a while it could be contaminated
since the fuel is hygroscopic it can attract water..this is bad news

i would recommend getting ahold of fuel with a lower nitro percentage

i would replace one ounce of oil in your gas mixture to nitro fuel

but like i said no clue how this will end yet
and im planing on using just straight r/c fuel
and i have not really put much thought in to mixing with gas
or a ratio that would work best

How many ounces of oil should you put in a gallon to begin with?
I dont have alot of engines lying around, but i wouldnt mind if i just add a little to boost it...
I didnt ask for the burning properties alone, i thought it would be better for lubrication..

 

[wildemere]

Hey mikenite, I was just trying to help. I posted a some info from Graham Bell's book.

Did you read it?

He has experience with adding pure nitro into racing 2 strokes, from back in the day when you could buy it easily.

I'm not sure what fuel you plan to use as there are many commercial 3 part blends available for hobby motors.

Read the text, it has many formulas and graphs.

I was the using info from his book, regarding motocross engines.

Adding pure nitro to a spark ignition two stroke with the suggested setup, A 50% power increase seems possible with the correct tuning.

So you might go from 2 to 3 hp with a huge increase in cost and maintenance.

With a blown four stroke the power increases are much higher over stock.

 

[Mikenite]

yeah its a nice read i printed it out to add to my collection
i just read into your second post wrong sry bout that =]

the motor is not going to be stock at all in the least so ill have more power for that 50% to be added too

but like i said i have access to materials for relatively next to nothing
and the maintenance is next to nothing for me since i race nitro r/c drags and i spend a good bit of my time rebuilding them after each time at the track

i enjoy working on things more than riding them so as long as it ends up ungodly fast im fine with more maintenance =]

 

[Bikeguy Joe]

nitro fuel is based of 3 parts

nitromethane
methanol
and oil...
its not alcohol based
Yes, nitro fuel is alcohol based, what do you think it is? Alcohol, oil and nitro.

your partly right on the plug keeps the flame a going but without proper compression it does not burn as well..a nitro motor will run on low compression just not very well or perform worth anything...

I am fully correct in that without a platinum glow plug, or some form of spark it will not ignite.

i never said "take more oxygen to make nitro burn"

I was reffering to another comment.

so the more dangerous and not possible anybody tries to make this sound the harder im gonna try to make it work....

Sounds about right...



oh and the fuel is more like 40 bucks to 70 bucks a gallon and i have every intent to run my bike off of it

WOW, you are getting ripped of fo'sho'!

. . . .. .
. . . . . .

 

[Bikeguy Joe]

nitromethane is a chemical= derived from propane.. propane is derived from the processing of natural gas or petroleum products... it is created from treating propane with nitric acid at a certian temp.... it is an organic compound.....

methanol is an alchohol= methanol is a form of alcohol... but its still methanol and not alcohol...it has an alcohol base
just because something is a form of something DOES NOT MAKE IT THAT EXACT COMPOUND..... so yes methanol is AN alcohol...but it is a specific type and that specific type is methanol...not ethanol or propanol or even butanol... it is methanol which is a FORM of alcohol much like the other's listed are also forms of alcohol....
but they are all different chemical compounds..

and oil...- only used in 2 strokes, not 4 strokes= oil is in four strokes just not in the fuel .. i dont even get what point you even had in saying that

its not alcohol based it clearly is, yes its clearly based with a chemical that is in the alcohol family of chemicals...but it's chemical name is methanol...if you want to referto everything that is an alcohol base as alcohol go right a head but they are all still different chemicals with their own names and properties....

like for instance .. your cousin is not your brother you may have the same base genetics...but he is still clearly you cousin..

Sorry, I didn't realize this was going to get this anal retentive.

 

[Mikenite]

yup im veryyyyyyyyy anal retentive

just like when it comes to metals
i use 23 6Al-4V-Eli ASTM f-136
and also 316 LVM ASTM f-138

not just steal or titanium but that exact compound
im used to having to be veryyyyyyy specific on these kind of things due to work

 

[Mikenite]

and yes you can get a gallon of crappy nitro fuel for less than 30 bucks but
i prefer the good fuel

 

[Creative Engineering]

Mike,

Awesome project!!!

Guys...adding a little bit of Nitro to gasoline will do absolutely nothing for the performance of your engine...

Now let's get realistic for a minute...Instead of thinking about the fuel for the engine...think about creating an engine for the fuel.

If you want to use hobby fuel effectively, you will need to buy a hobby engine and reverse engineer it to what ever "cc" displacement you deem appropriate...let's use 66-69 cc's as an example, (the larger displacement China engine).

There is not even the slightest chance that the best quality bicycle would handle the horsepower of a scaled up hobby motor.

Buy a 125cc motocrosser frame to install your giant hobby engine...and then hold on and pray!!! When this thing lights up it will make the wickedest roller coaster look like a baby ride!

In order to tune the beast, get it broken-in, and ride a few miles you will need to buy a 55 gallon drum of hobby fuel...yes you're going to need it!!! You can plan on about 3/4-1 gallon per mile if you can hold onto it for that long.

Any thoughts of using ANY component, (or design feature), of the Chinese engine will lead to frustration.

There is only one, 4-cylinder, Top Fuel rail in the world...and I build the engines for it. 90% Nitro...10% Alcohol...here's a video.

YouTube - "Billet Racing Engines" 4- Cylinder Top Fuel Dragster

It is extremely tricky to tune a rolling assembly to run on Nitro...When I say assembly...I mean the whole car!

The carnage, (broken parts), from 50% to 90% Nitro is ten-fold.

Try if you will...and certainly have fun...but I can guarantee you that if you attempt to build an engine that runs on hobby fuel...and it isn't a scaled-up version of a hobby engine...you will be disappointed.

Jim

 

[Goat Herder]

Nice work Jim!

 

[wildemere]

Hey Jim, did you even read the Graham Bell book in the link I posted?

The carburation chapter?

All the info you will ever need about exotic fuel blends, their pro's and con's when used in racing 2 strokes.

Hobby motors don't scale "up" that well, thats why large scale hobbiests use spark ignition gas motors.

Small hobby 2 stroke glow motors have "pinch" compression with ring-less pistons and tapered barrels that run at 20,000+ RPM using exotic 3 part, castor oil/nitrometane/alchohol fuels.

The current metalurgy we (motorized bike riders) have would not allow for a 20k RPM glow engine to be "upscaled" like you say.

Unless you have a F1 budget.

 

[Creative Engineering]

Hey Jim, did you even read the Graham Bell book in the link I posted?

The carburation chapter?

All the info you will ever need about exotic fuel blends, their pro's and con's when used in racing 2 strokes.

Hobby motors don't scale "up" that well, thats why large scale hobbiests use spark ignition gas motors.

Small hobby 2 stroke glow motors have "pinch" compression with ring-less pistons and tapered barrels that run at 20,000+ RPM using exotic 3 part, castor oil/nitrometane/alchohol fuels.

The current metalurgy we (motorized bike riders) have would not allow for a 20k RPM glow engine to be "upscaled" like you say.

Unless you have a F1 budget.

Yes I did...and I respect his work, and his publication.

You have to realize that no one has been able to get a total handle on Nitro tuning. The Top Fuel tuners blow up engines regularly...and Nitro has been messed with for nearly 50 years.

No offense to Graham or the validity of his text, but he was grasping at straws at the time...like everyone else when it came to Nitro.

Nitromethane explodes under pressure, naturally...no spark needed. We use twin 7 amp magnetos timed 60 degrees in advance in an effort to disperse the Nitro prior to TDC. The Nitro isn't actually set to burn by the mags...it's just jumbled up!

Nitro is dense and does not atomize through the injectors...it enters the cylinders as a liquid.

There is an extremely fine line between making BIG horsepower and scattering the engine.

Jim

 

[Creative Engineering]

Nice work Jim!

Thank you!!!

Jim

 

[Creative Engineering]

There are hobby engines that are ringed and run on Nitro based hobby fuel.

A large version of a hobby engine could be made here at my shop...what would I do with it?

Hmmmm...go-cart maybe...Yes!

Jim

 

[wildemere]

I think you are the one grasping at straws Jim, unless you want to rewrite Graham's book with your results debunking his results.

Scale up a hobby motor and then pull 60mph...

 

[Creative Engineering]

I think you are the one grasping at straws Jim, unless you want to rewrite Graham's book with your results debunking his results.

Scale up a hobby motor and then pull 60mph...

...I have had some experience with Nitromethane...Quite a bit of experience actually. It's not a matter of "debunking"...it's the matter of fact: that after 50 years there is still no perfect formula for tuning an engine to run on Nitro.

Anything less is, and always has been a placebo effect.

The hobby engines are designed to run on a low percentage of nitro. By design these engines have a very high compression ratio 18:1-22:1. This ratio makes the nitro "pop", and the small engine makes big power!

Jim

 

[wildemere]

OK, Jim, let us all see your 60mph pull, any engine, any bike, with your obviously more experienced knowlege and skills with nitro fuels, machining and racing than either Graham Bell or Gordon Jennings combined knowlege forgot.

You are clearly the man without any results to speak of..