Looking for gas bike for canada

[fasteddy]

Hi Davideo.

Yes, the feds had everything covered. I found all this years ago when I was checking to see if gas powered bikes were legal before I built one.

I'm looking to see if I can find the official government site but it was hard to find years ago and it's not any easier now. They laid out how they decided that the laws came about and how they decided what was and wasn't legal for public road use.

Steve.

 

[50up1350]

Thanks Steve and Davideo, this is awesome. This conversation is more useful than inflexible and argumentative approach to discussing this topic that I have seen on most threads!

Having thought about it a little, I could see the 500W total output limitation bring an issue. An online converter states that 500w is converted to just over 0.67 HP. Gas powered motors produce more than this as far as I know, even the small ones, so even with a system in place to limit top speed, you would have an excess power output.

Steve, I am also curious about your sources. I know that it can be tedious to look up information when we are certain about what we have verified. And as things are developing and different official opinions are sometimes not correct, we can look closely at the information as maybe there is a different angle that had not been considered. Thanks for taking the time to check it out.

As it stands in my mind at the moment:

- hybrid is a possibility worth exploring as we continue to discuss this
- the courts in BC have most recently said gas bikes are illegal unless insured/registered
- the most recent case in Ontario has said this is a misapplication of the traffic act
- I believe it is unlikely that people will be ticketed in general unless they are behaving recklessly.

I only use my gas engine to help me on difficult pedal trips and as a potential emergency transport if needed (e.g. a trip to the hospital), I kill the engine and pedal through intersections, I have very well maintained and robust safety mechanisms, my muffler is as quiet as I can make it (air intake is important too), and I always keep my speed around what I could be pedaling.

I believe that it is currently not illegal for me to ride my bike as it is. If I still get a ticket I will challenge it on the grounds of the Davies decision and argue that the judge's decision in that case was based on the fact that the law was not meant to be enforced in that fashion, as opposed to the uninsurability of the vehicle which was dismissed by the JJ in the Calderone case in BC. If it was still found guilty I would appeal it under the harm principle of the Charter rights, and present research into ebike safety and motorized bike safety to demonstrate that making one illegal is arbitrary when it could easily be regulated, and in fact might be safer to do so. Making things illegal means that unsafe products can be sold as off-road vehicles while regulation will lead to better consumer product options that would better protect the public.

DISCLAIMER: My amateur legal skills feel a bit over their head, but I am just talking about the hypothetical. Having done as much research as I can, it appears that it is not currently against the laws as they were intended, to safely operate a motorized bike on Ontario highways without insurance.

 

[fasteddy]

Hi 50up1350,

I spent a couple of hours last night looking at my old notes about what I found and as usual the government sites have been moved with no links to follow them up and I wasn't able to find them again. It was difficult 10+ years ago when there wasn't the amount of information there is now. Google is over whelmed with it.

The federal government as I said have have motor vehicle laws in place governing electric bikes. The provinces have to follow them and they can not over rule them. They can however modify them to suit the provinces vehicle laws. Such as they can say where and when you can ride them.

Hybrid electric bikes are illegal in Canada. If you put a gas motor on a bicycle that is inoperable and doesn't have a chain connected to the rear wheel the bike can not be used on a public road even if your pedalling.

My attitude is that you can do what you see fit. Your going to be paying the fine, possibly losing your driving privileges and paying any court costs, not to mention the increased insurance costs when you are allowed to drive again.

If you wish to poke an angry bear in the backside with a short, sharp, stick all I can do is wish you luck and great speed staying in front of the now angry bear.

Steve.

 

[Davideo]

Thanks Steve and Davideo, this is awesome. This conversation is more useful than inflexible and argumentative approach to discussing this topic that I have seen on most threads!

Having thought about it a little, I could see the 500W total output limitation bring an issue. An online converter states that 500w is converted to just over 0.67 HP. Gas powered motors produce more than this as far as I know, even the small ones, so even with a system in place to limit top speed, you would have an excess power output.

Steve, I am also curious about your sources. I know that it can be tedious to look up information when we are certain about what we have verified. And as things are developing and different official opinions are sometimes not correct, we can look closely at the information as maybe there is a different angle that had not been considered. Thanks for taking the time to check it out.

As it stands in my mind at the moment:

- hybrid is a possibility worth exploring as we continue to discuss this
- the courts in BC have most recently said gas bikes are illegal unless insured/registered
- the most recent case in Ontario has said this is a misapplication of the traffic act
- I believe it is unlikely that people will be ticketed in general unless they are behaving recklessly.

I only use my gas engine to help me on difficult pedal trips and as a potential emergency transport if needed (e.g. a trip to the hospital), I kill the engine and pedal through intersections, I have very well maintained and robust safety mechanisms, my muffler is as quiet as I can make it (air intake is important too), and I always keep my speed around what I could be pedaling.

I believe that it is currently not illegal for me to ride my bike as it is. If I still get a ticket I will challenge it on the grounds of the Davies decision and argue that the judge's decision in that case was based on the fact that the law was not meant to be enforced in that fashion, as opposed to the uninsurability of the vehicle which was dismissed by the JJ in the Calderone case in BC. If it was still found guilty I would appeal it under the harm principle of the Charter rights, and present research into ebike safety and motorized bike safety to demonstrate that making one illegal is arbitrary when it could easily be regulated, and in fact might be safer to do so. Making things illegal means that unsafe products can be sold as off-road vehicles while regulation will lead to better consumer product options that would better protect the public.

DISCLAIMER: My amateur legal skills feel a bit over their head, but I am just talking about the hypothetical. Having done as much research as I can, it appears that it is not currently against the laws as they were intended, to safely operate a motorized bike on Ontario highways without insurance.

Well said 50up. I like your logic and your riding habits are close to mine. The regulations say that a motorized bike can have 3 or fewer wheels in contact with the road, so theoretically the vehicle can have 3 times 500 watts of motive power. From personal experience that is more than enough for any bicycle. I have 3 motorized bikes, two hybrids and a fat tire electric folding bike and I love them all. I consider all of them meet the intent of the law. I shudder to think of more gas bike riders on the roads, who are intent on constantly pushing the speed and power envelope. I fear that type of behavior will soon ruin it for all of us.

 

[indian22]

Well said 50up. I like your logic and your riding habits are close to mine. The regulations say that a motorized bike can have 3 or fewer wheels in contact with the road, so theoretically the vehicle can have 3 times 500 watts of motive power. From personal experience that is more than enough for any bicycle. I have 3 motorized bikes, two hybrids and a fat tire electric folding bike and I love them all. I consider all of them meet the intent of the law. I shudder to think of more gas bike riders on the roads, who are intent on constantly pushing the speed and power envelope. I fear that type of behavior will soon ruin it for all of us.

To all those posting congrats on your civil discussion of issues involved with the laws of Canada and it's provinces pertaining to motorized biking on public roads and perhaps public lands as well?

I've friends that have a stake in this specific topic and I would of course hope that both gas and electric bikes will all eventually be allowed to operate legally on the public roadways of your great nation. In the meantime your comment on bad biking behavior brings up a relevant problem in all countries and it involves not only gas powered but also electric and pure pedal bikes. If the general rules of the road, which apply to all vehicles, are blatantly ignored we will see legislation passed which will be extremely harsh across the board.

I fancy all class of bikes pure pedal, gas, electric & hybrids. I've eleven motor bikes total and all but two are substantially over powered even by mo-ped standards, but I've been allowed by local authorities to ride these because I obey all the safety rules of the road while riding and have for decades now. I stay off highways as well so the state troopers give me a nod. I make an effort to show the driving public my best courtesy and my very real attitude of a friend. Low profile and decent sound control are a positive with both neighbors and the police.

I've retired a half dozen of my bikes to display status, but may tag a couple of those as motorcycles in the future. All of the above plus just to maintain my freedom to cycle a while longer though mechanically speaking I'm still way out of compliance legally on the few bikes I'm continuing to ride.

At 73 riding every day is quite important to me so going 100 percent legit is a very real possibility as well!

Ride friendly and often.

Rick C.

 

[50up1350]

I agree with everyone here in that this has been a great discussion. Thanks to all.

Davideo I love the idea of combining things, and I wish you luck. My reading of the Transport Canada laws are that the total output of 500w falls under the subsection of "one or more electric motors which have, singly or in combination". This means that you can have 25 motors rigged up in various ways regardless of the number of wheels, but the total power output in combination cannot be > 500W. I would love to see 500 single watt motors working together

And Steve, thank you for your words of caution and I get the sense that you are quite set on the legal situation being as you have assessed it. You have mentioned the "motor attached to a bike even if it is inoperable" point already and I am curious where this one comes from. It strikes me as hard to believe that a person would be charged for this, unless of course they were also involved in some other form of ongoing disrespect or unsafe behaviour as we have covered previously. Thanks.

I am still inclined to agree with Davideo's statement that the situation is evolving and I think that this discussion has shed light on the flexible nature of legal interpretation and application in this case. I wonder if you might be feeling dismayed or exhausted from the shifting legal climate and accepted previous statements to be immovable fact. Given the available legal applications, as we have discussed at length here, I respectfully disagree that this matter is closed. The laws are, at best, murky on the subject and there is an inconsistent approach to how these matters have been handled. At least some onus must be placed on the government to clarify the law or communicate about and apply it with greater consistency. And as a nation in which courts are where laws are eventually applied, tested, struck down, or clarified, I don't consider it an act of "poking an angry bear" to make an informed and careful interpretation of the legal mud puddle that we are currently wading through and to be willing to stand up for it in front of a justice.

Even though riding any bicycle on the sidewalk is illegal, it is well known that parents with young children will do it all the time. Sometimes there is not a safer alternative, and slowly pedaling down the sidewalk for 50 meters to avoid endangering pedestrians/drivers/themselves to put a bike on a stretch of road that is not designed for it. And I cannot find any examples of this being punished in any court in Canada, as this would be an application of a law in a way that it was not intended.

So I will continue to ride my bike, with the chain on and off, and with a motor attached, or in my backpack (or perhaps a big 2-stroke necklace to show off my bling?), with the knowledge that there is still debate within the courts themselves about the legality of the matter and with the deep searching I have done I cannot find anything to state that I should be prohibited in Ontario from riding as I do, since not a single record available shows a person being charged in court unless they were operating unsafely. And I, perhaps naively, consider this to be acting reasonably and safely within the laws as they have been intended and not, perhaps pessimistically, "poking the bear".

Thanks again. Peace.

 

[fasteddy]

Hi, 50up1350

If you scroll down to the bottom of the forum you will find a section for Laws and Legislation. You may have already seen it but it goes back over many years of discussions about what is and isn't legal and what happened to people who were stopped and arrested, fined, went to court ect. Pretty much all my links, if not all, come back 404 Error.

Having any type of I.C.E. motor on a bike seems to qualify it as a motorized vehicle that requires a licence and insurance. Who knows why. Why does taking the pedals off your bicycle with a motor on it suddely turn it into a motorcycle? Call or visit your local D.M.V. or police departmentand ask them what they can find on their rule books to see if I'm right or wrong.

I'm quite set on how the government sees it. There is no shifting of the laws. The government laid them out with their usual cold efficiency. The police departments and provincial government have laid them out equally well. The police are much more tuned into the motorized bicycle legalities that they were ten or twelve years ago.

The only shifts happen when judges don't read or have an understanding about motorized bicycle laws like the judge here in B.C. who ruled that electric scooters with pedals weren't legal when it states in the I.C.B.C. description that they are. Then there is the police officer who wrote the ticket out and said no matter what was decided it wasn't going to keep him handing out tickets.

Read the Laws and legislation section as I suggested. You will, I believe, find many answers to your questions from people personal experiences, many in Ontario.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Here's the link.

Steve.

Laws and Legislation for Motorized Bicycles

Share you knowledge of the laws in your state in this forum. Remember to always verify everything yourself with your dmv

motorbicycling.com

 

[indian22]

Here in the states it's certainly muddy waters & federal law, which isn't terrible concerning motorized biking, is often ignored in favor of state and local dictates. Then there are interpretations of each version: federal, state and local by groups and individuals. City councils, law enforcement, code officers, legislatures and even Mayors or city administrators. On top of all this the regulations are periodically altered to the point that law enforcement is just guessing as are motorized bike riders. I've only been stopped a few times over the last 15 years and the police dialogue went something like " Does that bike have a motor on it? How fast will it go? Well ok just ride safe and have a nice day. That's really cool. I always wanted one as a kid."

Here in rural Oklahoma some regulations are pretty much ignored unless safety and or public disturbance are at issue and that's really up to the officer involved. My prior post about riding responsibly is really quite relevant while actually breaking some known or unknown statutes of government. I'd add that riding over or under legal highway speed minimums (35 mph is typical minimum speed posted) will attract a State Trooper if the bike is motorized. however a pedal bike can legally travel the roadway or shoulder of state highways. Go figure!



Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

Hi Rick,
I looked at the old threads on the Laws and Legislation section and realized that the axe had been ground so many times there was nothing left but the handle and there was darn little of that left.

As my nephew said it's often up to the discretion of the officer how the traffic stop goes. Respect gets you respect unless the officer is a total jerk and is out to make your life miserable.

The laws in the U.S. and Canada are the same basically. Harmony works out well for both. In the U.S. your allowed 750W electric motors on electric bikes and we are allowed 500W motors. From the federal electric bike laws as a base the states and provinces enact their own laws tailored to their needs.

It does make you wonder who makes up the laws for the states and provinces. Riding a bike without a motor is hassle free but as soon as the bike's powered by a electric motor or an gas engine it becomes the Missile from Hades.
Much like our 32km/20mph speed limit for electric bikes. Someone can exceed that on a bicycle and be legal.

I get involved because I don't want to hear about someone carefully riding along and getting pulled over not knowing that their bike is illegal. Loss of their bike and the ensuing legal problems as well as the fines, possible loss of licence, ect can be avoided. Here in B.C. some motor biker's were hit with $5,000 fines years ago.

My attitude has always been that nothing is illegal until they catch you doing it. Then you discover just how sharp the angry bears teeth are.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Right you are Steve, yet going over & directing new comers to discover answers to all sorts of biking issues is a part of being responsible forum members and you, as well as many others, go the extra mile to assist and inform which is helpful. How this information is actually employed or ignored is beyond our scope of involvement. Our best insights can be of use by others reading a thread and never posting to it so a bit of rehash can be of use and we will be quite unaware of most of the outcomes

I'm intrigued by your statement reflecting on the commonalities of biking laws in our two nations. I hadn't factored in provincial and local as being much different than the statutes formed in Ottawa even though our stare and local codes vary wildly from that of national code. Application by governing districts officers sounds to be similar on both sides of the frontier. That is one tidbits of value which I'll carry away from this forum conversation.

Thanks to all who share that which they truly believe is helpful and best of fortune to those which seek correct answers to their questions.

Rick C.