Whats The Best E Bike?

[cannonball2]

The question I am asking is what would be the best E bike to build. A light highly efficient bike with max range? A heavy bike with mega top end? A cargo work horse? Something else?
I am aware the location/topography greatly influences a build. Hills being the determining factor. Still I believe it possible to build lightly for all locations.
I have bikes of all types. Certainly not of the caliber of many on the forum here, but a decent cross section of types.
I have a cargo bike, full suspension bike with a decent top end, and a small light weight cruiser.
Lungcookie stated that one probably needs several bikes of different types to cover the spectrum. I tend to agree. But if having only one bike what is the consensus? Also when does an E bike become a light weight E motorcycle?

Post your opinions, ideas, pics, whatever. Im interested in what yall think.

 

[BarelyAWake]

I think from your wording we would likely agree, that the "best ebike" is the one you've got - or about to get lol

Beyond that? There is no right answer

 

[Mike B]

I am happily designing my next one in my head right now as I sit here. I am pretty happy with what I have. Going for ease of use, simplicity and cargo capacity (grocery getter)

Bike - Republic Socrates
Looks really weird which is a plus. Has that big open "sign" board in the frame. 3 speed rear hub with coaster and front disk brake. I like 3 speeds you can shift stopped. That big bin in front is frame mounted not going to cause the front wheel to whip around. You can put 50 pounds in that big box. Now we are talking serious groceries, not just a few items.

Motor - Smart Pie 4 20 inch front wheel vector drive with PAS, no throttle and display.
20 inch wheel will increase the thrust and reduce the speed. That's OK, I don't like to go fast. Sine wave drive will be very smooth. Nothing to do, just start pedaling and it helps you along. Use the front disc brake with one lever and regen. A little travel trips the regen and then a little more will activate the disc.

Battery - DIY cell kit around Headway 38120S, 48 volt, 10 AH
Kinda like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-10AH-38...US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item2c8afa410d

Make a custom sign board for the bike and put 8 cells on one side and 8 on the other. This is where it gets creative and looks really cool. The battery will be built into the bike and not look like an add-on.

There ya go, my new idea for my "perfect" ebike. Intregrated look, no throttle, huge easy to use cargo capacity and simple, just hop on and pedal. That's the big point, you need to pedal. No pedal, no go. Excercise will be required.

Have fun!

 

[Lungcookie]

The reason why I thought 3 would be a nice number is that if I had just a fast ebike I would just go WOT all the time and they are usually +100lbs, no pedaling.
Electric dirt bike is a future project I will do one of these days, something you really have to hang on to.

I enjoy pedaling and over 25mph I run out of gears.
The magic Pie 3 is a great all-around motor but because of that it is limited. I can go 20mph for 20 miles pedaling and that's fine for me (in the flats/pavement) 48v/10ah.
2k max watts? Just a bit low for a full blown dirt ebike and freewheeling is not the best for pedaling.

I like or rather I used to enjoy the endless MTB dirt trail systems around where I live.
I want to get back out there but there are a lot of hardcore MTB bikers that will give you flak so a stealth mountain bike is the only way to avoid issues with the elitists around here. If they only knew.
I am not in the shape I was when young so I NEED a motor, now that I know!

I would think about a single wheel trailer for a grocery getter, use any bike that's running and can put extra batteries in trailer for long range.
I have never used a trailer so have no experience with them, just seems like a good idea.

And like you said so many variables to factor in.
Kinda have to agree with BarelyAWake, best may be the one you can afford.

 

[cannonball2]

Well maybe Im in a state of confusion(no not Ga!). I ride the fast bike, it hits around 32mph off the charger and its fun, but you are right LC I run it WFO all the time, no pedaling. So I could just remove the pedals add foot pegs, save weight and complexity(its a multi speed). Am I bicycling with this thing. I doubt it. So is it a light weight M/C?
OK I ride the cargo bike. Fully loaded it requires pedal assist at times to keep the amperage in line(my standards) so its sorta a legit bike.
The little light weight cruiser does it all well. With the geared motor it pedals as easily any good bike. So its a bike. Under power it will hit 20mph, plenty fast and cruise easily around 15. Which is the superior machine?
They all have their virtues. I think maybe MikeB is contemplating a true E bike. You gotta pedal it to make it go. Or is it?
The IC bikes have no problem being defined. Pedals are not used much at all, or for starting. Only the really low power bikes get pedal assist to get up hills. Most of the IC builds have power to spare and pedals may just be for legality.
Not that the E bikes lack for power, but why do we feel we need to pedal them when the IC counterparts don't? I have bikes with IC motors and it never occurred to me to pedal. Is it the motor sound that changes the game?
Why add a motor to a bike if you have to pedal it? I find I enjoy riding my unmotorized 700c fixie huffing and puffing along at 12-14mph. Put a motor on it and I probably aint pedaling it.
Short take is Im trying to figure out just what an E bike is as well as its rider. Do we pedal for stealth? I know pedaling extends range, so is the E bike so inferior at this stage(battery tech) that we must?
I really like the E bike thing(read electric vehicles of all types) , just trying to figure out is it a fad? Or are we in the evolution of a new generation of vehicles?

 

[Mike B]

Whatever works.

I don't even ride the happy time anymore, I'm going to remove the nice wheels, give the motor away to someone here for free and throw the frame inna trash.

The 2 friction drives I'm keeping. They are both nice rides and I like 'em. One is a 3 speed hub and I can actually pedal in higher gears and it feels good. The other is a low gear single speed and I only pedal to help the clutch off the line. But hey, it's an old Worksman and they can throw it inna coffin with me.

I'm getting rid of the 2 ebikes too. Probably give one to the neighbor and sell the parts on the other. The Revive I just hate and the Dawes is just too big and hard to deal with. So I'll give the Revive away, strip the Dawes for parts and put the original stuff back on and sell that too w/o edrive.

I do not lack for stuff to drive or ride. Now just want to fine tune the experience and use the best tool for the job.

I like the idea of getting exercise, but I like a little "help"

I like to get some useful work done whenever I do anything. I'm not a "joyrider" if I leave the house it's for a specific purpose or hey, why even go?

It's all very personal and there is no "perfect" bike for everyone. You just fine tune the bike for your own specific needs or wants. Then it's "perfect" for you.

But not for anyone else -

 

[Lungcookie]

Cant be just a fad.
Bikes were here before cars and will be here after they are gone.
Don't see myself pedaling my Toyota 4runner when the gas runs out.
130,000,000 new people on the planet every year, we are going to suck all the gas up at some point.
You look at Asia and some places are almost all bikes.

I look around and see a lot of plump people that need to get some exercise.(not you mikeB, around town)
With a little assist from a motor they can and not kill themselves doing it.

When I say fast ebike, for me that would be a Bomber/Fighter style, hold on TIGHT! And scare you fast. Like a YZ250 would/will. Guess that would be an E-motorcycle at that point. Surprising how much exercise you get on a ic dirt bike, full body workout.
This usually ends at some point with me on the ground in a big cloud of dust.
Fun stuff! Although I don't enjoy that as much the older I get, being injured just plain sucks.

Your ears are ringing when you lay down to sleep after a good ride, never happens on the ebike.

As soon as the battery tech gets on par with fossil fuel, I would think everything will be electric.

 

[cannonball2]

Great input guys! Points well stated. I think the bicycle is the best machine invented. It multiplies our limited human strength to allow what is really super human speed. We can travel at speeds approaching twice what we can run,with no basic environmental impact save what it took to manufacture it, and exhaled Co2. I imagine the "carbon footprint" of a Prius or similar is quite large considering battery manufacture and disposal. How green is green? How abundant is Lithium and the other elements used in battery technology? I haven't a clue. But it is surely being sucked up at an alarming rate to support all the hand held tech the planet is gorging itself on now. And how about disposal of the spent batteries globally?
With all the technology exploding on every side why is battery tech so slow? When compared to old lead acid battery tech which is now centuries old the new tech is not that much ahead except for compactness/weight/cycles. AH are AH. If new tech AH weighs 1/10 of the old tech certainly thats an advantage, but range is only extended by the reduction in weight.(I am aware the old tech is not as efficient as the newer stuff and actual range increases a bit due to better efficiency but not a mega amount).
E stuff is cool. No fuel to go bad, no oil to leak, etc. Maintain and USE your batteries and its about as trouble free as it gets. Im all for it, Im in on it, but just how practical is it now, or in the near future?

 

[Mike B]

You already know the answer, you are riding one yes?

Lithium is what makes it possible, I wouldn't have even bothered with lead acid.

If you ride an ebike with lead acid batteries you ain't getting the ebike experience. What do you mean about lithium?

Except that it's smaller and lighter and more capacity and has way more cycles it's not that much ahead of lead acid?

Yeah, you are right. But that's not good enough? What do you mean?

 

[cannonball2]

What Im getting at is almost any technology has advanced in mega leaps in the past 100yrs. Look at aviation, electronics, medical tech etc. and compare it to its counterparts from 100yrs back. Its not even in the same galaxy.
Batteries on the other hand don't seem to have advanced that much. True they are much better than a century back and maybe there is a technology on the horizon that will truly be a break through. As it is now there is nothing I am aware of that is truly spectacular in this area. I have been using Lipos since they came on the scene for R/C use and they did open up a new world for electric model flight. I agree the lighter weight and higher capacities are great. What really opened this scene up though was the mega improvement in motor/ESC tech. The brushless motor made it happen. I feel the same is true across the motorized E world. The power systems have improved to the point where its the battery holding up the advancement of E power to the masses.
I am aware of the limitations of the LA battery and am very happy with my Lithium packs. I can however swap in SLAs to one bike I have and it goes just as fast for almost as long, the real penalty being weight. As far as cycles the newer tech is superior. But for the same $$ as an upscale pack you can buy almost as my cycles for the same $$ with multiple SLA packs.
I am in no way touting the virtues of LA technology. I am just saying that the new technology(at least what we have access to) is not galaxies ahead.

The reason Im posing all these questions is to try to come to a conclusion on what the real answer to the many questions Im asked about E bikes/biking, the Green aspect of it, the efficiency, and the practicality of it. I never want to mislead anyone. A person can buy locally a 150cc scooter for about the cost of one of the better batteries. The quality of these things has gotten to the point that reliability is good. Most folks are looking at E biking as a means of transportation, not an interest or hobby. I build bikes for folks and just want to shoot them straight! That's why I turned to the folks here on the forum. There is no better collective of thought, skill and talent and your opinions are highly valued!

 

[Mike B]

For commuting, unless you are farther than 30 miles from work on way, ebikes would work well. Ride to work, charge up the bike all day, ride home and charge.

Local errand running, same story.

The only thing you are not going to be able to do is long rides past your range w/o a long charge period.

 

[snellemin]

The best Ebike is the one you have already. The question is, what else do you want?

I commute with my beast bike to work. In the morning I average 20mph, with a few burst of power near my job. On my way home I average 30mph to stay safe and until I reach the back trails where I just go 10mph to my house. But it's nice to know that I can hit 50mph if I need too.
The bike does weight over 100lbs. It does it all for me.
For trail riding, I have a mid drive mountain bike. Light enough and doesn't require a lot of batteries.
I have a slower Ebike that I use to goof off with. It's a magic pie II setup, with runs on recycled laptop batteries.
I pedal all my bikes.....up to 20mph if I want to increase my range. After 20mph it doesn't do any good to pedal.

 

[kevyleven007]

http://electricbikereview.com/top-10-electric-bikes/

 

[kevyleven007]

http://electricbikereview.com/yikebike/carbon/

 

[cannonball2]

Thanks for the input guys! The shake out of this is to offer an E bike as economically as feasible that is totally user friendly, and has some practical range. The battery chemistry has to be fool proof. In this area 250w motors are doable, no hills to climb and they will approach or hit 20mph. This is a transportation type bike, simple and easy to ride/use.

Offer some build opinions. Don't know if I really will be involved in bike building. but I would like an idea of what kind of bike Joe Public could afford and use.

 

[snellemin]

Safe battery would be cells by A123. 250W is too low and I would rather just pedal a light weight bike. 350W would be more like it. But if 250W is what you want, you can hide all the batteries inside the frame. The motor would be the type that is available already and is basically a pancake motor that sits right beside the front chainring. A regular person would never guess that the bike has an assist installed.

 

[cannonball2]

Thanks Snellemin! I am familiar with mid mount motors. Do you have a specific one in mind? Am favoring 24v. I know its the least effieicent compared to 36/48v, but its easier to afford/mount batteries. The trick with a 250w bike is keep it light. Packing batteries on/in a bike is always the big issue. I was thinking of maybe using PVC pipe as a battery bottle. The larger sizes, maybe 3" might work. Of course depends on the batteries used. 18650s would work and if in the 24v range just might fit in a reasonable sized tube. The best frame for this is the common old double diamond. About the only bikes out there using it are the fixies. I have a $99 700c Wally fixie that has been an excellent bike and would make a great light weight 250w ride. But I think its probably too high for many people to ride.
I think the potential E biking public would relate to some form of a basic light weight bike with as little E stuff apparent as possible.
The search for a reasonably decent readily available bike is next. I would like to see the finished bike come in in the $500 range. There is is plenty of SLA powered junk E stuff available for the same $$, so would like to have a well thought out decent build to offer.

 

[snellemin]

Check these two links out for some ideas.

Small mid drive with outrunnner motor

Small hub and batteries inside the frame

If I were to do something like what you wanted to do, I would use a small rear hub motor like the Easy-motion bike. I would source the newer skinny ebike controllers like the pic below. And since it's only a 24V, I would use quality 18650 cells in a bottle case format.

 

[KCvale]

Thanks Snellemin! I am familiar with mid mount motors. Do you have a specific one in mind? Am favoring 24v. I know its the least efficient compared to 36/48v, but its easier to afford/mount batteries.

I would reconsider 24V.

Watts (Power)= Amps (current) x Volts (Battery size).

Voltage is easy to handle, it's current that makes things go and a 24V battery has to put out twice the current that a 48V battery does for the same Power meaning twice the gauge wire to handle it as e-bikes draw a LOT of current and why batteries are rated by Amp Hours.

In short a 10Ah 24V battery would die twice as fast as a 10Ah 48V battery under the same load (Watt Hours).

I think the potential E biking public would relate to some form of a basic light weight bike with as little E stuff apparent as possible.
The search for a reasonably decent readily available bike is next. I would like to see the finished bike come in in the $500 range.

You're dreaming if you think you can make (to sell) any kind of powered finished bike that won't fall apart in a month for $500 retail, let alone an electric.

I like the midframe 36V and 48V e-shifter kits http://SickBikeParts.com carries.
Note the only difference is the throttle, the e-cyclone motor and Kelly controller can take 24-48V up to 1.68 KW

It's a box of the good e-bike components for $400 so that's my base for an e-bike build, then it's all about the battery.

I've tried a few, this 36V LiPo died in no time but it was a nice small package compared to the controller (mounted to front of battery) I used back then for this Caddy...

I dinked with other batteries like this 36V 'water bottle' but unless you just want a little power to help your legs as this petite customer wanted, just not enough juice storage to make any real power for a useful length of time.

I don't dink with the under-powered stuff anymore, I like big Lithium packs with good cells, lots of them, 110 18650's in these 50+V http://EM3ev.com triangle battery packs that have a smart BMS inside.

Granted you are talking over twice your budget just for the battery but you have the power when you need it, and with gears and a light touch on the throttle you may be able to ride all week before you plug it in.

Or not...
I tend to ride WOT and these 50+V shifters just flat blow me away ;-}

 

[cannonball2]

KC you certainly turn out very nice high end bikes!
I am fully aware of the limitations of my proposed thoughts. I run my bikes on voltages that range from 24/63v and am well familiar with efficiency. I am impressed/surprised how little a light weight low power bike will consume if operated in its most efficient range. I have spent a good bit of time on the 24v cruiser watching the watt meter. For close local riding I only run 5ah. The only pedaling I do is to start it off and assist up to around 6mph. The efficient range is around 14mph requiring on average 4/5 amps depending on conditions. I haven't hit my cut voltage yet and I have seen close to 10mi. The 5ah battery weighs 36oz and fits in the palm of your hand. Riding the heavier bikes requires about the same amperage in their efficient range but the speed is several mph faster and of course more efficient.
You are at the top of the food chain with your customer base. Its gotta be nice to have customers who want high end custom bikes built with performance being a focus. I think the general public would fare well with the least complexity needed. I can imagine how quickly they could make a shambles of a shifter bike!
Im thinking on the other end of the scale how to make the most efficient bike for the least $$. With the loadings 250/300w will impose a decent lower end bike should have no issues other than what might occur unmotorized. Remember the hub kits come with HD spokes/rims.
I always appreciate your input and for sure seeing your builds.

Thanks!