check your paypal thing from when you purchased the motor. sometimes that will have the sellers phone number on it then you can call him instead of email
My 1st bike/trike/moped project ever
- Thread starter vsavoldi
- Start date
Just curious how much you weigh if you put too much weight and especially try to take off from a dead stop uphill I could see it pulling too many amps. I do know you will gain a huge range difference if you pedal to get started.
Is fat a good answer? - lol
Lets add it up...
Trike without batteries - 40 lbs - just a guess, probably close
Batteries - 75lbs
Myself - 260lbs
Dog - 70lbs
Additional weight from chariot design - 10lbs
So that's about 455lbs total. or in other words - heavy
I feel pretty sure that the problem is due improper gearing and not having enough torque to pull the bad ratio. I am thinking of trying a larger wattage controller and reducing the gear ratio by 50%
Any and all other suggestions are greatly appreciated.
so you know anyone that has an electric bike with lipo's. that would reduce your weight big time. i have a 48v 1000watt lifepo4 for my bike and it weighs less then 20 pounds. might be able to just try them and see what results you get
[QUOTE=vsavoldi;
So with my current setup (11 front 65 rear)my top speed would be around 41mph (super scary fast) if the motor can get to full speed (3400rpm). If I get the largest sprocket I can find (90) it brings it down to 29mph (simply scary fast) so I believe your right Wayne, I am geared wrong.
There is a great gear calculator here in the DIY forum at the top. It has 3 entry spaces that makes it easy to figure in a jackshaft.
Is that a standard pocketbike 2 stroke Cag type motor with a clutch on it? They top out about 6000 rpm when in good tune. Where did the 3400 rpm number come from? that's about clutch lock up speed on these motors.
Now, Dax and Ebay sell a nice little 5:1 gearbox with attached clutch bell that bolts right on to these motors. Ebay ones are about $20. do a search there for "pocket bike transmission". One thing to deal with is they reverse the output rotation of the motor. Good luck, and have fun.
So with my current setup (11 front 65 rear)my top speed would be around 41mph (super scary fast) if the motor can get to full speed (3400rpm). If I get the largest sprocket I can find (90) it brings it down to 29mph (simply scary fast) so I believe your right Wayne, I am geared wrong.
There is a great gear calculator here in the DIY forum at the top. It has 3 entry spaces that makes it easy to figure in a jackshaft.
Is that a standard pocketbike 2 stroke Cag type motor with a clutch on it? They top out about 6000 rpm when in good tune. Where did the 3400 rpm number come from? that's about clutch lock up speed on these motors.
Now, Dax and Ebay sell a nice little 5:1 gearbox with attached clutch bell that bolts right on to these motors. Ebay ones are about $20. do a search there for "pocket bike transmission". One thing to deal with is they reverse the output rotation of the motor. Good luck, and have fun.
With that much weight, shoot for 15. Double the reduction.
Torque is more important than speed.
If you don't have enough speed, so what?, you just don't go as fast.
If you don't have enough torque, you don't go at all.
Torque is more important than speed.
If you don't have enough speed, so what?, you just don't go as fast.
If you don't have enough torque, you don't go at all.
Hey Mike you calling me phat? - lol I agree that a slower speed is much better than no speed at all. I am guessing the motor will never turn 3400 rpm so I am guessing I will get 3000rpm and shooting for 19-20mph.
Yep I think we have nailed the problem, not enough torque to spin up the motor causing excessive amp draw which is shutting down the controller.
I was thinking about going to a bigger controller but I suspect that it would not help.
I ordered the stuff to do a jackshaft starting at about a 2:1 reduction from what I have. This should top out at about 19 mph, if it's not enough torque I can simply change one of the sprockets.
Hey Wayne, I really know nothing about the 2-stroke motor. I played with them years ago and at this point I don't want to deal with hassles and mess of a gas engine. Hopefully I get my e-Trike working great and ya never know I may sell the gasser or use it for some other project. Heck it's even possible that I take all the electronics onto my next project and put the gasser back on this. 3400 is the max rpm on the electric motor, no idea what the gasser does but it sounds like 5500-6500 rpm if I had to guess.
Yep I think we have nailed the problem, not enough torque to spin up the motor causing excessive amp draw which is shutting down the controller.
I was thinking about going to a bigger controller but I suspect that it would not help.
I ordered the stuff to do a jackshaft starting at about a 2:1 reduction from what I have. This should top out at about 19 mph, if it's not enough torque I can simply change one of the sprockets.
Hey Wayne, I really know nothing about the 2-stroke motor. I played with them years ago and at this point I don't want to deal with hassles and mess of a gas engine. Hopefully I get my e-Trike working great and ya never know I may sell the gasser or use it for some other project. Heck it's even possible that I take all the electronics onto my next project and put the gasser back on this. 3400 is the max rpm on the electric motor, no idea what the gasser does but it sounds like 5500-6500 rpm if I had to guess.
I do know that Azbill hauls his 2 grandaughters to school in a pretty big trailer looks alot like a richshaw. He is using a qmatic tranny on an ez motor kit they run $600 I think it would do the trick for your needs. Just a side note I am 245 lbs myself which is why I thought of the weight issue. I used to be 265 hoping to get back under 200.
dont mean to jack the thread but i was looking at stuff to buy to lighten my bike. wife said you gonna spend that kinda money so bike is lighter and goes faster? why dont you just pedal once in a while it would be a whole lot cheaper, kinda funny but i didnt let her know i thought it was. told her she hurt my feelings lol
lol
Yeah a lot of people say the same thing to me. The truth is I do plan on pedaling more often than not. What I want is help uphill. Once the trike is at speed it pedals easy. For the longer hauls I expect I will rely on the motor when possible to gain some top speed but for the most part our bike paths will be slow and easy going so minimal power should be required.
Hopefully the Jackshaft setup I'm trying will do the job to get the torque to the tire.
Yeah a lot of people say the same thing to me. The truth is I do plan on pedaling more often than not. What I want is help uphill. Once the trike is at speed it pedals easy. For the longer hauls I expect I will rely on the motor when possible to gain some top speed but for the most part our bike paths will be slow and easy going so minimal power should be required.
Hopefully the Jackshaft setup I'm trying will do the job to get the torque to the tire.
i know with mine up really steep hills i pedal and it is very easy pedaling. the resistance is minimal. the motor is working hard and just wants a little help
I've read (briefly) about your problems with the electric setup on your trike and I must say - it's a controller problem (and gearing of course). Namely , controller you have bought is good for 30 A MAXIMUM , which means it usually operates within 15-20 Amps continuous , and the weight is somewhat a problem (well, it is a big problem). Since you can't do anything about the weight (well , you can , but that will have little effect on the trike performance) , the only solution is VERY low gearing (20mph top speed with this setup and driver and passenger is possible downhill only , or briefly on the flat) , and better yet is to obtain stronger motor (meaning much more torque , as someone said before) and adequate controller and get 48 V system. LiFePO4 batteries would help weight issue and overall performance (grater range and performance without risk for battery pack). As for controller - you are looking at more expensive stuff , probably more than 100 Amps max (probably more) , with some neat knobs for tuning mark/space ratio of the power supply (that means how many cycles per second and how much Amps in one cycle of power delivery) and , of course , with under and over voltage cutoff . Before jumping in a purchase of these items , you'll need to gear properly your trike and than to measure how many Amps your motor pulling on a start (with you and the dog on it). If you can't do this - any electrician with simple multimeter can. As for torque , PMBL (permanent magnet brush less ) motors are superior , but sadly , the price is too ($650-750) and seams to me that you'll need at least twice amount of torque for the total weight of your trike - otherwise the motor will get hot quickly (not that I know anything about your current motor specs).
I'm writing this , because I know a guy who made a go cart like contraption (ambition was to look like formula 1 car) , and he has made it of the steel box pipes and the weight was around 250+ pounds. He ended up using 2,5 KW motor on 48V system to be able to go around 25 mph (flat terrain) and I'm not sure about gearing (and he is very thin and small guy). Hope this helps a bit...
I'm writing this , because I know a guy who made a go cart like contraption (ambition was to look like formula 1 car) , and he has made it of the steel box pipes and the weight was around 250+ pounds. He ended up using 2,5 KW motor on 48V system to be able to go around 25 mph (flat terrain) and I'm not sure about gearing (and he is very thin and small guy). Hope this helps a bit...
Yep every bit of insight helps you mentioned a few things that are on my hit list. 1st thing is the gearing and I have ordered an old style 100 amp gauge to mount on the trike. Once those two items are in place I will know where I stand in terms of amp draw.
I will most likely do my testing without the controller, it kills me that the controller supplier said to match the controller to the motor i.e. 36v 750w motor = 36v 750w controller. As it turns out I think I should at least double the controller max amps and maybe even triple it but then I worry about sending too many amps and burning up the motor.
Rather than a single larger motor would a 2nd of the same type possibly do the trick? If I wire the motors together will they help each other and produce 2x the torque?
Lately I have been wondering if all homemade e-vehicles are money pits? hehe I have just touched what I considered at the start of the project my max desired budget of $1500. I was hoping to get it together for $1000 but was pretty sure that was out of the question.
I will most likely do my testing without the controller, it kills me that the controller supplier said to match the controller to the motor i.e. 36v 750w motor = 36v 750w controller. As it turns out I think I should at least double the controller max amps and maybe even triple it but then I worry about sending too many amps and burning up the motor.
Rather than a single larger motor would a 2nd of the same type possibly do the trick? If I wire the motors together will they help each other and produce 2x the torque?
Lately I have been wondering if all homemade e-vehicles are money pits? hehe I have just touched what I considered at the start of the project my max desired budget of $1500. I was hoping to get it together for $1000 but was pretty sure that was out of the question.
Yes, 2 motors will double the torque. You will need another controller too.
Yes, good ebikes are not cheap. I think I have 2 grand in the Revive and I will have a little more in the Bullseye.
But it's worth it to me. It really does bring back the bike experiance.
The problem with motorbikes is the motor. Well the gas engine. The electric motor is smooth and quiet. Un-obtrusive on the sights, sounds and smells of the outdoors. Except for the weight almost unnoticable. Zero vibration.
I don't even ride the gas bikes anymore except the Solex. I just love that funky thing.
It's slower than the ebikes -
Yes, good ebikes are not cheap. I think I have 2 grand in the Revive and I will have a little more in the Bullseye.
But it's worth it to me. It really does bring back the bike experiance.
The problem with motorbikes is the motor. Well the gas engine. The electric motor is smooth and quiet. Un-obtrusive on the sights, sounds and smells of the outdoors. Except for the weight almost unnoticable. Zero vibration.
I don't even ride the gas bikes anymore except the Solex. I just love that funky thing.
It's slower than the ebikes -
Yeah I agree about how messy engines can be. That's the main reason I decided on changing from the 2-stroke. It took a lot of cleaning to kill the grime and I'm still not sure I got it all - lol
And then there is today when I saw the el-cheepo gas station at $3.999 and most others were $4.099 - That's for regular unleaded
And then there is today when I saw the el-cheepo gas station at $3.999 and most others were $4.099 - That's for regular unleaded
Double motors will double the torque , but it is extremely hard to get them synchronized. Rotation speed of every motor is different (by few turns per minute) and with gearing - it can become a real problem (faster one will heat up quickly). You would have to provide some sort of freewheel on each of drive wheels , but that's tricky too (there was some extensive discussions about that before). Fancy electronics can sort that out , but that is much more expensive than buying a one big strong/torqy motor.
As for Amp draw - motors get their juice from controller in a form of many current impulses per second (not continuous current draw) and that's why I've mentioned mark/space ratio on the (future) controller. Motor will get hot during the operation , but not too hot IF it's up to job (meaning that it can pull weight of the vehicle and driver and have good enough design, in terms of thicker wire in windings and so on..).
One last thing: if you're buying electrical components (motor , controller) , try to find as much as you can about what you're buying , not just manufacturer sticker about electrical rating (for example : 750 W can be 24 V with 31 Amp , or 75 V with just 10 Amp and so on..) Find out what is peak motor amperage , what torque it produces (graph is desirable too) , how many windings of which gauge wire , etc... For the controller - it's a same thing (other parameters though). Simple "36 V 750 Watts" won't do. Conclusion is to buy stuff directly from the manufacturer (China probably) and to ask their offer/proposition based on your case (heavy trike) and explanation about it(why they think that certain motor or controller would be good for you).
And yes , e driving is a money pit (thanks to Mr Henry Ford and Commodore Morgan ). Do not hesitate to ask around before any decision, which will cost you money - it's a much cheaper way than try and error
As for Amp draw - motors get their juice from controller in a form of many current impulses per second (not continuous current draw) and that's why I've mentioned mark/space ratio on the (future) controller. Motor will get hot during the operation , but not too hot IF it's up to job (meaning that it can pull weight of the vehicle and driver and have good enough design, in terms of thicker wire in windings and so on..).
One last thing: if you're buying electrical components (motor , controller) , try to find as much as you can about what you're buying , not just manufacturer sticker about electrical rating (for example : 750 W can be 24 V with 31 Amp , or 75 V with just 10 Amp and so on..) Find out what is peak motor amperage , what torque it produces (graph is desirable too) , how many windings of which gauge wire , etc... For the controller - it's a same thing (other parameters though). Simple "36 V 750 Watts" won't do. Conclusion is to buy stuff directly from the manufacturer (China probably) and to ask their offer/proposition based on your case (heavy trike) and explanation about it(why they think that certain motor or controller would be good for you).
And yes , e driving is a money pit (thanks to Mr Henry Ford and Commodore Morgan
). Do not hesitate to ask around before any decision, which will cost you money - it's a much cheaper way than try and error
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Yeah my only regret right now is the controller. I paid way too much for it in the first place and it looks like it will not work for me. I blame it on a lack of proper understanding and impulsiveness. I was hoping to be able to put the trike in an EV show this week. I almost took the trike anyway but it didn't seem right since it was not EV ride able.
Looks like next Friday everything will be here for a jackshaft. Based on the many great recommendations here I am shooting for 19mph top speed presuming I get 3000 rps out of a 3400 rpm 36v 750w motor. I chose the gear sizes so I can up or down either size a few teeth if needed..
Now to fab up the mounting..
Looks like next Friday everything will be here for a jackshaft. Based on the many great recommendations here I am shooting for 19mph top speed presuming I get 3000 rps out of a 3400 rpm 36v 750w motor. I chose the gear sizes so I can up or down either size a few teeth if needed..
Now to fab up the mounting..
My advice is to leave a little bit of room in mounting , for bigger motor if needed...
And something off topic (regarding lack of power)... I knew a guy (back yard tinkerer) who found starter motor of 90's Toyota (don't know the model , just that it has permanent magnet rotor) in a junk yard. He fixed the starter cog in forward position (don't know the word for it in English - it's a thing that moves forward and spins the flywheel when you turn the key in the ignition) , welded some chain sprocket on it and drilled whole lot of holes in the starter housing , and mounted some fan behind it (in a way that it blows constantly). Then he mounted that thing on a scooter frame (old , bicycle style like, heavy frame) and put some car batteries (two on a sides and one lengthwise). Man , that thing starts like rock from a sling shot...Mind you , there was no controller , just three position heavy duty switch (12 , 24 , 36 V) + on/off one. After 45 min of abuse , starter motor got hot (there were some little hills , which we used as a ramp for jumping) and some of the guys were not in lightweight category , but 10 min after that batteries were drained (those batteries were picked up around his back yard and I was amazed that he managed to put some electricity in them). After that , I was contemplating to play with starter motor , but abandoned that because of lack of time and money.
And something off topic (regarding lack of power)... I knew a guy (back yard tinkerer) who found starter motor of 90's Toyota (don't know the model , just that it has permanent magnet rotor) in a junk yard. He fixed the starter cog in forward position (don't know the word for it in English - it's a thing that moves forward and spins the flywheel when you turn the key in the ignition) , welded some chain sprocket on it and drilled whole lot of holes in the starter housing , and mounted some fan behind it (in a way that it blows constantly). Then he mounted that thing on a scooter frame (old , bicycle style like, heavy frame) and put some car batteries (two on a sides and one lengthwise). Man , that thing starts like rock from a sling shot...Mind you , there was no controller , just three position heavy duty switch (12 , 24 , 36 V) + on/off one. After 45 min of abuse , starter motor got hot (there were some little hills , which we used as a ramp for jumping) and some of the guys were not in lightweight category , but 10 min after that batteries were drained (those batteries were picked up around his back yard and I was amazed that he managed to put some electricity in them). After that , I was contemplating to play with starter motor , but abandoned that because of lack of time and money.
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Cool, I once rode on a mini bike that was powered by a old Ford starter motor and solenoid. It basically started spinning the rear tire as soon as you hit the button, by time it stopped spinning you were either moving along about 20 mph or flat on your back with the mini bike driving it's self down the street.
Also Z, I'm curious about the programmable controllers you mention, any idea on a source I should use for my 36v 750w motor? Where do I look and what do you think I should get? 1500w? 2500w.
Also Z, I'm curious about the programmable controllers you mention, any idea on a source I should use for my 36v 750w motor? Where do I look and what do you think I should get? 1500w? 2500w.
http://kellycontroller.com/dc-seriespmsep-ex-controller-kdzkdc12v-120v-c-79.html
This would be my choice + almost all the extra bells and whistles (it's not necessary) http://kellycontroller.com/kdz4840124v-48v400apm-with-regen-p-956.html (there are brushless versions , if you go that way one day , regarding the motor). Read the descriptions and features all the way to the bottom of the page - that's how ANY offer should look like (+ some additional information at customer request). You'll know more accurately abut continuous Amp rate (get the next Amp grade up controller) , when you measure exactly , how much juice motor pulls.
I'll look later for more controllers(there are some people who makes FULLY programmable controllers , but they are in more exotic price range) and post it here (don't have the links at hand right now).
Once again , DO NOT look at Watt rating , LOOK at CONTINUOUS Amp rating for the controller , never mind where you get it. Let me explain : when somebody puts Watt rating in their offer, that usually means that they DO NOT produce that item , they are just selling it. It is much the same like when you're buying the car, and the dealer/seller starts talking about leather seats , air conditioning , or other equipment , BUT he/she knows nothing about the engine , in a sense HOW it works (what technology is implemented and what that really means) , or how ABS works or ESC (electronic stability control) or other similar stuff, and they most certainly will not talk about fuel consumption(or they will repeat stuff from the advertising brochure) or how much the maintenance will cost, and what are the parts that will brake first and often.
So , continuous Amp rating is the measure which interests you , because controller is comfortable (it's electronic components) working with that amount of current all day long (or more). Peak Amp rating is the measure of the current that controller is comfortable working with, only for few seconds (max) , after which it will shut down (if it has over current protection - like yours do) , or melt. Sellers usually just multiply PEAK Amp rating with certain potential (Volts) and get a some number in Watts (which represent electrical work , totally inaccurate btw). That number (i.e. 1500 w) , to average consumer sounds much better than REAL data , which should be like 700 w (yet again , that is misrepresentation) , which means that , if you have 36 V system on your trike - it can withstand only 19,4 Amps continuously, or less , because of thermal and resistant losses (and cheap battery operated drill can easily pull 60 Amps , for example , and you can drill with it for a long time). Also , it is VERY important to know quality of the components (which can be found in the manufacturer sheets) and HEAT dissipation and protection against overheating , which represent losses (if it runs cool for a period of time within specifications - it is a god one).
I'm fully aware that price is considerable , but it is a VERY good quality for that price (and there are some a bit more expensive http://www.manzanitamicro.com/products?page=shop.browse&category_id=33 ).
I haven't be able to find in this thread (maybe I've missed it ?) what are requirements for your trike , range wise (accept the top speed). I strongly suggest that you think over switching to brushless motor , which is more effective , therefore , better performance and range , usually with better torque curve for similar power , compared to brushed motor (controller needs to be appropriate , that is - for brushless motors). Don't know the budget available , and that's a main thing when planning for a complete drive system.
Sorry for long post - I'm having problem to express myself in short manner in English, and I'm trying to explain complicated (extensive) things in simple manner.
This would be my choice + almost all the extra bells and whistles (it's not necessary) http://kellycontroller.com/kdz4840124v-48v400apm-with-regen-p-956.html (there are brushless versions , if you go that way one day , regarding the motor). Read the descriptions and features all the way to the bottom of the page - that's how ANY offer should look like (+ some additional information at customer request). You'll know more accurately abut continuous Amp rate (get the next Amp grade up controller) , when you measure exactly , how much juice motor pulls.
I'll look later for more controllers(there are some people who makes FULLY programmable controllers , but they are in more exotic price range) and post it here (don't have the links at hand right now).
Once again , DO NOT look at Watt rating , LOOK at CONTINUOUS Amp rating for the controller , never mind where you get it. Let me explain : when somebody puts Watt rating in their offer, that usually means that they DO NOT produce that item , they are just selling it. It is much the same like when you're buying the car, and the dealer/seller starts talking about leather seats , air conditioning , or other equipment , BUT he/she knows nothing about the engine , in a sense HOW it works (what technology is implemented and what that really means) , or how ABS works or ESC (electronic stability control) or other similar stuff, and they most certainly will not talk about fuel consumption(or they will repeat stuff from the advertising brochure) or how much the maintenance will cost, and what are the parts that will brake first and often.
So , continuous Amp rating is the measure which interests you , because controller is comfortable (it's electronic components) working with that amount of current all day long (or more). Peak Amp rating is the measure of the current that controller is comfortable working with, only for few seconds (max) , after which it will shut down (if it has over current protection - like yours do) , or melt. Sellers usually just multiply PEAK Amp rating with certain potential (Volts) and get a some number in Watts (which represent electrical work , totally inaccurate btw). That number (i.e. 1500 w) , to average consumer sounds much better than REAL data , which should be like 700 w (yet again , that is misrepresentation) , which means that , if you have 36 V system on your trike - it can withstand only 19,4 Amps continuously, or less , because of thermal and resistant losses (and cheap battery operated drill can easily pull 60 Amps , for example , and you can drill with it for a long time). Also , it is VERY important to know quality of the components (which can be found in the manufacturer sheets) and HEAT dissipation and protection against overheating , which represent losses (if it runs cool for a period of time within specifications - it is a god one).
I'm fully aware that price is considerable , but it is a VERY good quality for that price (and there are some a bit more expensive http://www.manzanitamicro.com/products?page=shop.browse&category_id=33 ).
I haven't be able to find in this thread (maybe I've missed it ?) what are requirements for your trike , range wise (accept the top speed). I strongly suggest that you think over switching to brushless motor , which is more effective , therefore , better performance and range , usually with better torque curve for similar power , compared to brushed motor (controller needs to be appropriate , that is - for brushless motors). Don't know the budget available , and that's a main thing when planning for a complete drive system.
Sorry for long post - I'm having problem to express myself in short manner in English, and I'm trying to explain complicated (extensive) things in simple manner.
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