Canada...legal or illegal?

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tooljunkie

Member
Apr 4, 2012
663
5
16
Manitoba,Canada
whew.a lot of reading.
my gas powered bike is an add-on kit.
according to my bike engine install manual,i am the manufacturer.
so it is a manufactured bike.
manitoba highway traffic act states piston engines under 50 cc's are legal.
i wear a helmet,mirror on left handlebar,and have a headlight for it.
not stopped yet,but i do know they harassed a senior with an electric scooter,detained him for an hour until the right guy said it was legal and to leave him be.
after that,old guy caused a big stink about being detained for so long
and demanded an apology.
the popo's dont harass the scooter guys anymore....at least around here.
 
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fasteddy

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2009
7,476
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British Columbia Canada
Wanderer,
I think if you look at line (18) where the Judge discusses what is legal vs what isn't as far a bikes with electric motors and gasoline engines here in B.C. I think you will find the answer to your question.
He does talk about it in Section (19) as well I believe. As Mr Rockenstein has pointed out to me before, this only effects those of us in B.C. Unfortunately it may not help you in Ontario but a lawyer would be able to tell you for sure.
On the other hand those of us in British Columbia may well have an out. Remember he got off because he was able to convince the judge he was given misleading information by people who were in the position to know the rules.

As I have posted here before, when someone who should know the rules tells you your good to ride get that in writing or at least a business card to prove that you talked to that person and write the time and date on it.
This not some random thought on my part but hard experiance. It truely is amazing how people forget or don't remember when their job or a potential rebuke from someone higher up the ladder is waiting for them for not doing their job properly. Down right, flat out lying seems to be fair game as well and it's up to you to prove they are.

I talked to another forum member who is here in B.C. recently and he said there are riders in his area and the police are not bothering them. Hopefully this ruling will help them if they are.

Steve.
 

The WANDERER

New Member
Jun 30, 2009
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G.T.A.
I think if you look at line (18) where the Judge discusses what is legal vs what isn't as far a bikes with electric motors and gasoline engines here in B.C. I think you will find the answer to your question.
He does talk about it in Section (19) as well I believe.
Correct, the judge did discuss what is legal vs what is'nt, he did not discuss what is legal vs what is illegal, no where does he say that the defendants contraption or use was / is illegal. Not legal does NOT equal illegal, stop confusing the two.


I am in agreement with the words in part [18]

[18] The Legislature has chosen not to impose that requirement of insurance on those operating a bicycle, even a bicycle powered by a low powered electric engine. But the very same bicycle powered by a low powered gasoline engine cannot be operated on a highway. It has made a bright-line decision to differentiate the two. Because this gas powered bicycle cannot be equipped in all respects in compliance with the Motor Vehicle Act and Regulations [s. 219(1)], it cannot be insured for operation on a highway.

Cannot be operated on a highway, operative word there is OPERATE, it is not in the context you think it's in, means cannot be given a permit, cannot be given licence, cannot be given certificate, meaning ICBC (or whoever "runs the show there") does not have authority under legislation to issue licence for such activity, meaning that it is not an option for them (because the legislature has not made it a reqirement nor granted allowance), therefore cannot be operated on a highway. Notice the words "use or ride" were not in the analysis, only operate because when he says operate he does not mean use / ride, he means licence, permit. They do, however, state that no insurance is required for a bicycle or electric bicycle. Nothing there though says that a insurance is required for the gas bicycle. To clarify, if it were to mean what you mis-think it to mean, he would have wrote " The Legislature has chosen TO impose a requirement of insurance on those operating a bicycle powered by a low powered gasoline engine." No such words were said.

These smart people are word smiths, problem is, most people dont read properly and worse, don't know what words really mean.

Look at it like this - the legislature has given permission for one, but not having permission for the other does not mean it is forbidden, the legislature has not expressly forbidden carving wood statues either, does that mean it is forbidden? If the legislature said they allow the making of sandcastles on the beach in summer, does that mean the legislature makes it an offence to make snowcastles on the beach in winter (not that BC get winter mind you) ? Now if the legislature said they allow the making of sandcastles on the beach in summer and no permit or insurance is required, does that mean the snowcastles require a permit and or insurance ? No. Further, if the legislature says it's ok to make sandcastles, does that mean prior to them saying it's ok it was forbidden?, or illegal?, or not legal?. I'm not aware that the legislature has indeed inacted such legislation, so does that mean building sandcastles reqires a permit or insurance, is the activity not legal or illegal? Note: last sentence is not a question but sarcastic statement.

fasteddy, the way you see these "motorized bicycles", one might say that you see sandcastles as "illegal" because a structure is being built on property not owned by the sancastle builder, no building permit was or can be issued, and the builders are not licenced as sandbuilding contractors by the province.

If this went to court because a cop charged someone, how do you think that would play out? Probably exactly like this case law we are discussing, right?


[19] If a motor vehicle, which cannot be insured because it does not meet the statutory standards to do so, is operated on a highway, can the driver be convicted of operating that motor vehicle on a highway without insurance. In my view, the driver cannot. I conclude that that provision was not intended by the Legislature to apply to that factual circumstance.
Basically he is saying that because the "gas bike" does not have all the equipment (that is required of a proper legal motor-cycle or similar) of section 219, it cannot be insured as one simply because it is not one, it is a different animal, no where does the legislature or the Judicial Justice say it is required. The equipment (or lack of) of s219 sets the two things apart and diferentiates them (motorized bicycle from motorcycle, and motorized bicycle from PAB), as he stated when he said of the legislature "It has made a bright-line decision to differentiate the two."

I conclude that that provision was not intended by the Legislature to apply to that factual circumstance.
That factual circumstance here is the defendants contraption, therefore, he concludes that the provision was not intended by the legislature to apply to the defendants contraption.

Notice the missing things - he was never charged with failing to register a motor-vehicle, nor did the judge bring it up, no one mentions if it's even required to be registered. The judge knew that this was going to be in the papers because the defendant belongs to some group out in BC (as I am led to believe but have no proff) and he had just over 3 months to make a decision and choose his words carefully.
 

tooljunkie

Member
Apr 4, 2012
663
5
16
Manitoba,Canada
in any case a motorized bike could be considered a moped.
this is on manitoba public insurance website.


If the engine on your vehicle is not more than 50 cc and cannot exceed 50 km/h, it is considered a moped for insurance purposes.

Mopeds do not require a motorcycle licence

Mopeds can be driven by anyone with a Class 5 driver’s licence in any stage of the graduated licensing process. You are not required to have a motorcycle licence or any specific training to ride a moped. However, since mopeds and motorcycles share many of the same safety issues, it’s a good idea to take a motorcycle safety course. Safety Services Manitoba (formerly the Manitoba Safety Council) offers courses beginning in May.

manitoba highway traffic act:
Mopeds not to operate on certain Provincial Trunk Highways

185(1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate a moped or a mobility vehicle on a Provincial Trunk Highway on which the maximum speed limit is more than 80 kilometres per hour.

Exception

185(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to an operator of a moped or a mobility vehicle crossing a Provincial Trunk Highway on which the speed limit is greater than 80 kilometres per hour if the crossing is made at an intersection and in the most direct route.
 

fasteddy

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2009
7,476
4,966
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British Columbia Canada
Wanderer,
I printed out and took your post up to my friend at our insurance company for a look at it.
To be polite and not to get myself tossed off the forum the only two terms that he used that I can print were "disturbing" and "interesting" and he suggested that you clear any more of your posts concerning motor vehicle laws with your local DMV.

As for me I've got bikes to build and I'll leave you to dazzle the rest of the forum members with your lack of knowledge about the laws in a province where you don't live.

I do hope that since you have been on here since June 2009 you will just once post a photo of your bike and talk about how you built it. You do have a bike don't you?

All the best.

Fasteddy the troll :)
 

Rockenstein

New Member
Feb 8, 2009
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Ontario, Canada
As for me I've got bikes to build
Best stick to building bikes and other hand crafted multiple wheeled wonders Steve, you do nice work, The reading and interpretation of the writings of wordsmiths tho obviously isn't your bag of Okanagan peaches ... and that's ok ... really ... everyone has different skill sets.

Agreed?

.trk
 

fasteddy

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2009
7,476
4,966
113
British Columbia Canada
Mr. Rockenstein,
I had expected a man of your caliber to give me a better answer than that. You asked me to agree to something and I would like to know just what and who I'm agreeing too.

Since you have no evidence to offer to my question I can only conclude that this matter is indeed dropped do to lack of evidence on your part.

I bid you a most pleasant goodnight sir.

Steve.
 

BarelyAWake

New Member
Jul 21, 2009
7,194
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Maine
You gentlemen have been bickering over this topic for years... so long as it's kept civil, that's fine and it's part of what forums are for after all, debating the finer points of whatever folks feel needs such discussion.

It's quite simple really - if you see a point made you disagree with, refute/debate it politely. If you think it irresolvable, just ignore it. If you see a violation of our rules, report it.

I would like to point out however that no member has any more or less a right to express their point of view than any other and no member has the right to control what or what does not get posted - and it takes both parties to "drop it".

Any continuation of such pointless antagonism as suggesting another member refrain from posting their views will be cleaned and infractions added for the insult it is.
 
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fasteddy

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2009
7,476
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British Columbia Canada
I'll send you a PM some time today. This does not belong on this thread as per the moderators requests.
This has become a personal matter with you and should stay between you and I.

Steve.
 

Rockenstein

New Member
Feb 8, 2009
442
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Ontario, Canada
Please point out to me the wordsmiths that you are speaking off.
I had hope you'd figure it out but I guess if you don't fully read the important bits of the thread you miss out.

When I posted this compliment and polite words of encouragement...

Best stick to building bikes and other hand crafted multiple wheeled wonders Steve, you do nice work, The reading and interpretation of the writings of wordsmiths tho obviously isn't your bag of Okanagan peaches ... and that's ok ... really ... everyone has different skill sets.
I was referring to what The WANDERER had posted earlier...

These smart people are word smiths, problem is, most people dont read properly and worse, don't know what words really mean.

The WANDERER is quite right. The smart people that write law are well versed wordsmiths and most times the average layman can't decipher the writings correctly.

Relax Steve :)

------

Oh and BTW...

fasteddy said:
Since this was started with The Wanderer I find it interesting that you are now involved with it and not The Wander. Is this one of your revolving aliases that you use to skirt the moderators requests to stop?
I am not "The WANDERER" and I do not use an alias on these forums other than the one I have had since joining in August of 2009. That alias of course is Rockenstein.


Further I got involved in the thread with the hope of calming you down after I read your reply to The WANDERER...

fasteddy said:
As for me I've got bikes to build and I'll leave you to dazzle the rest of the forum members with your lack of knowledge about the laws in a province where you don't live.

Big fat FAIL on my part :oops:

.
 

timH

New Member
May 22, 2012
1
0
0
Winnipeg Manitoba
I have one of those Electric Scooters. a Motorino
I have sped it up a bit (42 - 45Kph) as I ride faster then that on my road bike so why not a scooter..

anywho my issue is not speed but longevity. I want more distance....

so I purchased a honda generator and put that on the back of my E-Scooter I can now ride and charge the bike at the same time.

if stopped well I can turn off the generator and still prove that it is an "on board charging system) not a motor driving the E-scooter

if MPI would just give me a damn license all this would be sooooo much easier.

yes I can't get a license due to a visual issue. not severe enough from stopping me riding a bike for the last ohhhh 30 years and an Escooter for that last 6 so MPI suck it!!!!
drn2