ebikes in China

[matthurd]

Amazon.com: Electric Bicycles: A Guide to Design and Use (IEEE Press Series on Electronics Technology) (9780471674191): William C. Morchin, Henry Oman: Books

Gets good reviews and has lots of info to help you with your limited range and fear of burning coal issues .

considering iv'e worked in shops that specialize in sales and service of electric bicycles, i'd like to think i'm aware of their ups n downs, and there limited range is a legitimate turn off to many customers, which is why the 50cc and up scooters that cost more and ran on gas still sold more, people didn't like the idea of not being able to go as far as they wanted in 1 try, sure you can add extra batteries but it's still a hassle, and even then the range is still limited to how far you can travel with out being able to sit around for a few hours while they charge.

the speed difference wasn't even a concern to most people who came in looking for efficient transportation, and i love how you're playing off the coal thing likes its not significant, for as great as china is they can't come up with a better solution? i mean their ebikes are amazing aren't they?

heres another thing, the places where your talking about i'm guessing are some of chinas HUGE cities, i doubt rural china is running ebikes everywhere. and thats ok for china, because in city a limited range of 20miles per charge is probably just fine, but what do they have for when they want to travel out of city? something that again america doesn't have, a massive train network.

 

[Mike B]

20 miles per charge eh?

Sounds good to me. I didn't know they ran that far.

 

[matthurd]

20 miles per charge eh?

Sounds good to me. I didn't know they ran that far.

the good ones do, if you don't max it out the entire time, and in china where a lot of travel is in city that's probably not a problem at all, in america it's a bit different for many of us, my mom lives 4.2 miles from me, now sometimes go over just to visit then when i'm there shes not feeling well so she sends me on a few errands we'll call that 2 miles round trip, then i go get take out for everyone 3.5 miles away and have to go back, now i go home at the end of the day, thats 4.2x2,3.5x2,and 1x2 so 17.4 miles, could i do that on a ebike? yes

but as the battery drains i certainly do suffer a performance hit, and would i be comfortable cutting it that close? not really.

other days i ride 15 mile trips 1 way, obviously an ebike can't do that, and on top of that i usually ride around after i get the first 15 miles so call it 20, then the trip homes 15 again. if i carry extra batteries yes i can make that trip, otherwise no. but the batteries are big and bulky and i'd have to stop and change em over. it's inconvenient.

ebikes aren't bad but in there current state they certainly aren't for everyone.

 

[ferball]

My biggest issue with e-bikes is I am a huge guy, and weight makes a monstrous difference in range on an e-bike. Even with a gas bike weight makes a difference, but only your top speed suffers, not how far you can go and like was pointed out earlier speed is not that much of an issue when considering the mode of transportation in question.

 

[happyvalley]

I don't have an eBike yet and maybe never will but some of the builds I've seen over at endless-sphere would scoff at a 20 mile range figure....they're doing a lot better than that. It need be noted they are real builds though, not just assemblies like many gas bikes.

 

[Mike B]

I have parts for an e-minibike which will be under construction...

I dunno when.

It's on the list though -

And legal in CA too with no pedals -

The batteries weigh 80 lbs.

 

[matthurd]

I don't have an eBike yet and maybe never will but some of the builds I've seen over at endless-sphere would scoff at a 20 mile range figure....they're doing a lot better than that. It need be noted they are real builds though, not just assemblies like many gas bikes.

i can take a 400cc motor and put it in my bicycle frame and make it do 100mph!

but at that point in all seriousness it's not really a motorized bicycle anymore right? would love to see how big the battery packs are on these things and see how far they actually go at 20mph (which is a very common top speed for what is considered an ebike in most of the states) with out pedal assist.

 

[happyvalley]

i can take a 400cc motor and put it in my bicycle frame and make it do 100mph!

but at that point in all seriousness it's not really a motorized bicycle anymore right? would love to see how big the battery packs are on these things and see how far they actually go at 20mph (which is a very common top speed for what is considered an ebike in most of the states) with out pedal assist.

This thread was started by the OP with observations of what he saw traveling. I have no desire to turn that into a 'which is better' argument because I don't think it's relevant.

I was pointing out some of the innovative thinking I've seen over at endless-sphere. I don't have an eBike but I have the engineering curiosity to be interested. I'd have to say I've observed far more practical commuter oriented builders there who seem concerned with range practicality, limiting weight and everyday usability than speedsters concerned with top speed. Frankly, for the long term viability of motorized bicycle riding there are times I wish gas bike builders had more of those considerations too.

 

[motorbiker]

i can take a 400cc motor and put it in my bicycle frame and make it do 100mph!

but at that point in all seriousness it's not really a motorized bicycle anymore right? would love to see how big the battery packs are on these things and see how far they actually go at 20mph (which is a very common top speed for what is considered an ebike in most of the states) with out pedal assist.

Check out what this upstate NY kid is doing ! ! !

http://www.ebikeforum.com/electric-...ium-ion-li-ion-battery-ezip-3.html#post171017

 

[matthurd]

This thread was started by the OP with observations of what he saw traveling. I have no desire to turn that into a 'which is better' argument because I don't think it's relevant.

I was pointing out some of the innovative thinking I've seen over at endless-sphere. I don't have an eBike but I have the engineering curiosity to be interested. I'd have to say I've observed far more practical commuter oriented builders there who seem concerned with range practicality, limiting weight and everyday usability than speedsters concerned with top speed. Frankly, for the long term viability of motorized bicycle riding there are times I wish gas bike builders had more of those considerations too.

if an ebike has a battery pack the size of a desktop computer, it's not really the same as a normal ebike imo, get my point now? just like if i strapped a 400cc motor to a bike, it's not really a motorized bicycle anymore, its an electric motorcycle, and a motorcycle, which is why i said i'd love too see some of the battery packs the bikes you were talking about are running.

@motor yes what the guy is doing is impressive, but now it comes too size, if we put huge amounts of batteries in 1 pack yes we can get a more reasonable range, that people would be more comfortable with, but with the size of that pack being so large, it doesn't seem very practical.

we need the technology to become better to the point where we can hold that amount of power in a 12 cell configuration, and preferably a 6 cell before i see ebikes as a truly viable and respectable form of transportation for the masses in america. when running that many batteries weight is certainly a factor, how easily can people carry that pack on a bike up a flight of stairs for example, if it's not reasonably portable like a bicycle, it's not so much an ebike, as it is an electric motorcycle imo.

 

[motorbiker]

The almost $50 price scares people away ?

Only 2 left ?

Amazon.com: Electric Bicycles: A Guide to Design and Use (IEEE Press Series on Electronics Technology) (9780471674191): William C. Morchin, Henry Oman: Books

It really does cover your issues about ebikes.

Check out the guy that wrote that book. All his books are pricey !

That book is saying something much different than what you are saying Matt.

Quote:

For much of the world, bicycles are a transportation mainstay. Electric bicycles--powered by a rechargeable battery pack--are proven to deliver the highest possible energy efficiency, even compared to pedal bikes.
_______________________________________________________________________________

That is some claim but he backs it up with lots of info !

I know a lot of us are fat and lazy but darn it, if they can do it in China then we can too ! ! !

And do it better ! We are the USA ! ! !

P.S. many of us are carrying around a beer and pizza gut that weights more than a 36v 30ah battery pack !

 

[happyvalley]

if an ebike has a battery pack the size of a desktop computer, it's not really the same as a normal ebike imo, get my point now? just like if i strapped a 400cc motor to a bike, it's not really a motorized bicycle anymore, its an electric motorcycle, and a motorcycle, which is why i said i'd love too see some of the battery packs the bikes you were talking about are running.

we need the technology to become better to the point where we can hold that amount of power in a 12 cell configuration, and preferably a 6 cell before i see ebikes as a truly viable and respectable form of transportation for the masses in america. when running that many batteries weight is certainly a factor, how easily can people carry that pack on a bike up a flight of stairs for example, if it's not reasonably portable like a bicycle, it's not so much an ebike, as it is an electric motorcycle imo.

I agree with more than a little of what you say, given that I'm still running gas bikes after a lot of research. I have absolutely no love affair with ICEs, just they are more applicable for my use right now. I do keep my eye out for advances with ebikes and battery tech and have to say I really do like the torque curve characteristics of electric motors through the rpm range.

I'm probably in the minority but for me weight and impact on the functionality of the original bicycle are paramount, something I've not compromised on my gas bikes. The heaviest weighs 50 lbs with 30 miles worth of fuel, the lightest 42 lbs.

I wonder sometimes if ebikes are held to a higher standard though, like they should be far advanced if they are to be considered worthy. I remember a couple of threads, here and on the other forum I think, where the subject line asked "how much does your bike weigh?" I was surprised at the replies, indicating the majority of gas bikes being much heavier than I would have thought, many in the 70 to 90 lb range, some at 100.

If we ask that ebikes remain as bicycles with a high degree of portability, it seems fair to do the same for gas bikes. I see many showing interest in larger displacement and heavier engines with more HP all the time...79cc, 99cc engines weighing 25 to 30 lbs. dry weight. The mission creep for gas bikes morphing into small motorcycles with faster top speeds seems like a given reading through the pages here anyway, and the "if it's not reasonably portable like a bicycle" argument seems largely an ancillary consideration.

 

[motorbiker]

NASA ebike testing

http://www.jakirk.com/ebike/36VolteBike/documents/NASA.pdf

 

[Mike B]

That's pretty cool. Especially for lead-acid batteries.

Imagine what it could do with lithium-ion.

 

[motorbiker]

That's pretty cool. Especially for lead-acid batteries.

Imagine what it could do with lithium-ion.

200lb person on an 82lb bike went 36miles with 36v 8ah sla battery and a brushed motor ?

That was a production ebike too.

I like the charts and stuff.

 

[matthurd]

I agree with more than a little of what you say, given that I'm still running gas bikes after a lot of research. I have absolutely no love affair with ICEs, just they are more applicable for my use right now. I do keep my eye out for advances with ebikes and battery tech and have to say I really do like the torque curve characteristics of electric motors through the rpm range.

I'm probably in the minority but for me weight and impact on the functionality of the original bicycle are paramount, something I've not compromised on my gas bikes. The heaviest weighs 50 lbs with 30 miles worth of fuel, the lightest 42 lbs.

I wonder sometimes if ebikes are held to a higher standard though, like they should be far advanced if they are to be considered worthy. I remember a couple of threads, here and on the other forum I think, where the subject line asked "how much does your bike weigh?" I was surprised at the replies, indicating the majority of gas bikes being much heavier than I would have thought, many in the 70 to 90 lb range, some at 100.

If we ask that ebikes remain as bicycles with a high degree of portability, it seems fair to do the same for gas bikes. I see many showing interest in larger displacement and heavier engines with more HP all the time...79cc, 99cc engines weighing 25 to 30 lbs. dry weight. The mission creep for gas bikes morphing into small motorcycles with faster top speeds seems like a given reading through the pages here anyway, and the "if it's not reasonably portable like a bicycle" argument seems largely an ancillary consideration.

to me if you couldn't carry it up a flight of stairs if need be, it doesn't really qualify as a bicycle of any sort (tandems the exception because of size, not weight), when i think of a bicycle i think of something relatively portable good for running around town on a nice day.

my bikes in the higher weight class since its a big heavy steel cruiser with very heavy rims and spokes, but even then i can carry it up 2 flights of stairs easily enough.

 

[motorbiker]

I have a folding version of the bike like in the NASA test.

Mine has the same motor but on a 20" wheel and the bike is about 40lbs less.

The batteries come off and you can carry them up the stairs.

The bike folds and is easy to carry or put into the trunk.

 

[matthurd]

I have a folding version of the bike like in the NASA test.

Mine has the same motor but on a 20" wheel and the bike is about 40lbs less.

The batteries come off and you can carry them up the stairs.

The bike folds and is easy to carry or put into the trunk.

while that's not bad at all, i bet we still have the problem of having a fairly limited range with that set up.

that's how the portability issue came up, yes some people are making ebikes go 60 miles on 1 charge, which is great but there battery packs are huge.

when something can do that configuration and go 30-40 miles in 1 charge at 15-20mph the whole time, that's when i think ebikes will show promise in america, while we may not frequently go 30 miles on a bike every day, americans still want the ability to do just that, which is why ebikes aren't hugely successful yet.

 

[motorbiker]

Right ? Some people may only want to go 5 miles or less at a time.

Some might want to go 55 miles at a times.

Sizing a bicycle for a person and getting the gears right for that person can be a task.

Sizing the e bike for a person might even be more of a task ?

One size surely won't fit all and I don't think that many people know how to fit a person up with an e bike that will suit their needs.

I need one that will fit into the back of a car and will go about 75 miles.

Will let you know when I figure it out.

I will be using a light weight ebike with a top of the line made in Germany motor.

Think I can, hope I can. Gas is for people richer than me !

 

[matthurd]

Right ? Some people may only want to go 5 miles or less at a time.

Some might want to go 55 miles at a times.

Sizing a bicycle for a person and getting the gears right for that person can be a task.

Sizing the e bike for a person might even be more of a task ?

One size surely won't fit all and I don't think that many people know how to fit a person up with an e bike that will suit their needs.

I need one that will fit into the back of a car and will go about 75 miles.

Will let you know when I figure it out.

I will be using a light weight ebike with a top of the line made in Germany motor.

Think I can, hope I can. Gas is for people richer than me !

the amount of gas i use paired with the initial investment, stacked with the time of year that i ride in (im in the north east so 5 months of good riding weather tops), means that a gas powered motorized bicycle is a much better choice then any electric, when you look at the initial investment and the cost of electricity, i go through about 1 gallon of gas every 3 weeks at about $3.80 a gallon so for an entire summer of riding it's like $20 in gas, the start up cost for a normal bike vs a well made ebike is about $500 difference for me. so i'm $480 more expensive already and i haven't even used any extra electricity.(which i would be charging the bike anywhere from once every 3 days to 2 times in a day)