Well..I got pulled over

[Rockenstein]

Everyone should do this and get documentation of them stating this, then if / when you get pulled over, show it to the police and or the courts if it goes that far.

If it cannot be registered as a motor vehicle, then it's not, your document now defeats anything the Crown Prosecutor has (which is diddly) for the purposes of the HTA, the criminal code is different.

Exactly what The WANDERER said and just to reiterate the message...

Go to an MTO office all by yourself and attempt to get your modded bicycle registered as a motor vehicle and before they shoo you out the door empty handed try to get the results of your attempt in writing on official letterhead. If that's not possible take a witness and then have your witness prepare a statement which can be notarized. A video cam or a little spy cam like I have would possibly do the job too.

 

[midnight_rider]

Well it's certainly good news that they tossed some of the provincial offence notices in the trash bucket but it's typical that they kept one on the record for their own books which of course sets some legal precedent for future reference.

Couple questions...

Was this "deal" worked out with the crown counsel before appearing before "your honor" or was it your honor that said ok I'll toss this and this and reduce that to this after you explained your case?

Did you have a lawyer?




Modified bicycles are not illegal in Ontario and as I and others have said before there is nothing written in any of the Ontario acts that says they are. Where the argument really is is can a resident of Ontario build and use a modified bicycle on anything other than private property. As an example in Ontario if you purchase a bicycle at Daymak in Toronto that's been modified in China to use an electric motor as supplementary propulsion your good to ride wherever you please yet if you build something similar in your own garage your somehow in conflict with Ontario's acts the moment it leaves your private property.

.

I didnt have a lawyer, when I told the clerk that I was here , I asked her who I could talk to and she said the crown attourney in the room behind me, I went to him and he asked who I was and explain my situation, I told him and he was like a car dealer "Well here is what I'm gonna do for you.... " he got the driving under suspension down to driving without a licence which was the 160.00 fine and he dropped the other ones...The only thing the judge asked me was if there was anything that I wanted to say , so the only thing that I said was "Yes, I wasnt aware that these things fell under the motor vehicle laws"

That was it......

 

[fasteddy]

I went to the head of the dragon to see what is indeed fact. This is the reply I got. I guess this is the last word.
>
> > Subject: motorized bicycles
>
> comments: I am trying to find out if Transport Canada allows a gasoline engine of 50cc displacement to be put on a bicycle frame any where in Canada.
> Would this make it a power assisted cycle?
>


>
> Thank you for contacting Transport Canada, Road Safety through our web mail.
>
> Regulations regarding modifications and installing equipment to an existing vehicle or in this case a bicycle frame are the jurisdiction of the Province in Canada, under the Highway Traffic Safety Act. You will find links to all Canadian provinces on our web-site at the following address:
>
>
> Information Links - Transport Canada
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Information Centre/Centre d'information
> Transport(s) Canada
> Road Safety/Sécurité routière
> 1-800-333-0371 or (613) 998-8616
> [email protected]
>
> cial.

 

[Lance Portnoff]

sorry to hear all that bs

 

[Rockenstein]

when I told the clerk that I was here , I asked her who I could talk to and she said the crown attourney in the room behind me, I went to him and he asked who I was and explain my situation, I told him and he was like a car dealer "Well here is what I'm gonna do for you.... "

Isn't nice that when you say who can I talk to that they send you right into the cave of the ogre that wants to take a big bite out of your wallet. For me the question "who can I talk to" says someone is looking for someone who can advise them in a reasonably fair and unbiased manner but as you found out Mark that's the way things works around here.

Best wishes on the electric build and ride safe friend

 

[fasteddy]

After I got the answer from the Feds this morning I got a taste of what Rockenstein and every one else is going through. The Feds make the laws and the tell the provinces to do what they want with it.
Now the provinces don't have set in stone laws except good old B.C. and you get information that is interperted by the agency that is telling you what they "think" the law said.

Guess once again and one of the reasons I left Ontario over 30 years ago is that they never seem to have clear cut laws. My cousin was an Ontario Provincial Police Officer and he talks about it years after he quit.
The thing to do is ask the cops what the law is and research the reference numbers they give you. I'd ask them since they are the ones using it to go after you.

Spent a lot of hours over the last couple of days trying to find something that made sense on the internet but the only thing I could find was that as of Sept.1 1988 all motor vehicles had to have a 17 digit alpha numeric serial number to be registered as well as a statement of origin from the maker who has been approved by the government to make or import vehicles manufactured to government standards.
Maybe that is where they get us. Can't get a vin number so you can"t get it registered. As I said before I did find out that as soon as you put a piston driven engine on it you have created a motor vehicle. Of course after yesterday I found out that putting an electric motor on any thing makes it a motor vehicle but it seems legal in most places.

Saw a newspaper clipping where a reporter talked to a cop in St. Cathrines, Ontario and they were busting eBikes with out the proper gov. stickers and he said that they were worried about people putting illegal gas motors on bicycles and {this will shock you} he actually saw someone with a chain saw motor mounted on a bike. Well is sure seems it shocked the sargent. Wonder what that persons fine was.
They were after the eBikes because the cops were worried that the makers and others might suffer from shocks and burns if they weren't an approved installation. Don't think the fines even entered thier minds do you.
Found information that if you convert a bike to an eBike using a kit make sure that the kit supplier gives you the proper stickers that says your kit is approved of by Transport Canada in both French and English. My supplier did.

Don't know about you but the legal mud is much clearer now.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Rockenstein, how so? It just backs up what I said all along that the Feds set the standards and the provinces tailor them to thier needs.
Thus you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get a license to ride your moped or limited speed motorcycle.

Looked up the Ontario web site that the feds sent back and I can't see why you are so confused as to your bike being legal. You don't have a manufacturers plate from an approved by the government maker. The bike is new so it was made after Sept. 1 1988 and it doesn't have a vin number and the provincial government can't/won't give you one so point me to the problem your having please.
The bicycles with a piston engine on it or an unapproved electric motor is illegal to put on the road in every province so far as I've read. They don't meet the federal guide lines the provinces are using to make thier laws.

Steve.

 

[biknut]

Does that include home bilt gas bikes?

They do have approved gas powered mopeds, right?

 

[fasteddy]

Biknut, yes there are a lot of mopeds that they have let in over the years. Government restrictions on motor vehicles that can be brought in to Canada is not new by far. I ran into this over 50 years ago when they restricted what vehicles you could bring in from the U.S.
They didn't want us to find out that a Pontiac wasn't a rebodied Chevy like in Canada.

Homebuilt vehicles have to be inspected in Ontario as every where else and the province/state has federal/provincial/state guide lines to follow. If any of them restrict a motor vehicle from being inspected then you are out of luck.
When I took my chopped Triumph down to have it inspected in Ontario in 1963 it was a lesson. The head light was 1/4 of an inch too low and there was a big conflab between the three inspectors {I was in a waiting room and looked through a window} and a lot of measuring and then one of the inspectors picked up an air line gave the front tire a shot of air and more measuring. After a few seconds there were nods all around and I was approved.
The way the head light was mounted it couldn't be moved.

Would seem pretty simple to draw up guide lines for motor bikes like they have for motorcycles and turn us loose to build to those standards but if you find someone that forward thinking in government start buying lottery tickets. You are on a winning streak.
The problem Rockenstein and Midnight Rider and every one else face is that
Ontario is insane when it comes to laws. They have laws so they can make laws.

Steve

 

[Rockenstein]

Rockenstein, how so? It just backs up what I said all along that the Feds set the standards and the provinces tailor them to thier needs

That's quite the back pedal Steve when actually what you've said in many many posts on these forums is...

Federal law forbids gas bikes anywhere in Canada

You proved yourself wrong when you emailed Transport Canada and they replied with...

Regulations regarding modifications and installing equipment to an existing vehicle or in this case a bicycle frame are the jurisdiction of the Province in Canada

The thing that your not getting Steve, and I've pointed this out to you before, is that in Ontario there is no specific law that forbids anyone from attaching a gas engine or anything else to a typical run of the mill muscle powered pedal bicycle. So the argument is and has been if one does attach something to their bicycle does it now become something other than a bicycle. The police in Ontario would like you to believe that if you modify a typical pedal bicycle by adding a gas engine or an electric motor it magically morphs into a motor vehicle. The Ministry Of Transportation (MTO) says a bicycle can't be registered as a motor vehicle of any kind no matter what you've added to it. So if the branch of the Ontario government that deals with all things motor vehicle says a bicycle, modified or not, can't be registered as a motor vehicle you have the right to argue that provincial offences relating to motor vehicles, like those given to Mark, do not apply.


It's a pretty simple legal argument Steve.
.

 

[fasteddy]

I have never said that Ontario has laws that say you cannot put a motor on a bicycle. Any province will let you put 5 motors on a bicycle if you can find a way to do it. You just cannot put it on the public roads. They can only be used on private property.

Well the police are certainly right. What does a bike become when you put a motor on it other than a "motor" bike.
Read my above posts again. The federal government requires a vin number and approved makers plate. You don't have these and the province won't give them to you so you can't register it or ride the bike on the road.

I agree with you about the arguing. **** I argued in Ontario courts long before you were born and it got me every bit as much as it will get you. You are better off trying to empty the ocean with a fork. Your choice of fork size of course. Ontario will require you to use a spork.

The Official Ontario Web Site as sent to me shows what is allowed by the province of Ontario on the roads in Ontario and brother until I see a bicycle with a motor on there they are illegal to put on the road.
Argue away. Keep trying to turn what I've said to your advantage. Really please I find it very amusing and at times down right laughable but when you want to get to the grass roots of the problem count me as one of your strongest supporters. Don't complain, organize motor bikers across Ontario and go to Ottawa and Toronto and show them that we aren't a bunch of 14 year olds ripping up the neighbourhood. Thats what brings change. Not arguing with me.
I'm too old to care anymore. So it's up to you younger lads and ladies to do it for you or put up with the hassles.

Steve

 

[biknut]

What about this approch,

Build a motor bicycle that complies with all the requirements for a moped. Take it and get a vin# assigned to it and register it as a moped.

 

[fasteddy]

Been tried everywhere many times but the hold up is the vin/plate. The only reason I could build the Triumph is that it was an existing motor vehicle. Once I modified it I had to have it recertfied that it modifications were OK and road worthy. You buy a motorcycle frame from a frame maker now who will supply you with a certificate of origin so you can register it.

Street rods have to be registered as a modified what ever year the body is if it is old and if new or you use a new frame, the frame maker has a number on it with a certificate of origin and you use that as a vin number.
Don't write that in stone about street rods. I haven't been involved with them in years. As Rockenstein said depends on where you live. What I can do in B.C. may not be allowed in Ontario.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Another problem is that mopeds are supposed to have a step through frame. I think that was on the Ontario site as well.

Steve.

 

[biknut]

Based on this information the action is going to be very risky, but there seems to be no other choice than trying something along Rockenstein's plan.

This is what I would do, but I don't have a lot of confidence in it. I would go to court and claim my bicycle does not fit the definition of a motor vehicle and make them prove it does. The fact that nobody has actually tried it leaves some room to question the outcome. Also you could get lucky and the cop might not show up.

Before the court date I would try to drum up as much publicity as possible. Call TV stations and newspapers, it there's any left. Make as big a public stink as possible. Think outside the box. Never give up. All they can do is make you pay the fine anyway. Consider going to jail instead of paying. Start a web site and ask for public donations. Shake the tree as hard as possible and see what falls out.

 

[fasteddy]

Biknut, that would be like kicking the bear in the azz and walking around to the front to see if he is angry. That is why I had to argue in court in Ontario a few times cause I just had to stab the bear in the backside once in a while. The fines would most likely be in the thousands if they hit you with everything they could and what I've seen in my 67 years is most people will let you do the fighting and help you share the rewards if you win. But that said, what a fight it would be. I would imagine that the police would be there if they though it was a serious fight.

The whole problem is still the fact that you don't have a leg to stand on with out the vin and manufacturers plate. The other reason you wouldn't have leg to stand on is that they would rip it of in court and slap you senseless with the wet end of it.

There were plans to have a big meet in Northern Ontario but the city police there are very hostile to motor bikes and the meet never happened. If someone in Ontario near a major city could put a meet together with donations at a campground or other large areas where people who come to it have a place to stay as was the plan last time.
We could ride on the private lands and have the news people visit use there. Invite local politcians to come and join us for a photo op and to see that there are all age groups from the young person trying to get by due to a low paying job to the hobby rider to the grey haired, if they are lucky to still have some, old fossils.

Steve.

 

[Rockenstein]

I have never said that Ontario has laws that say you cannot put a motor on a bicycle

You have on many occasions posted that the feds say our bikes are illegal all across Canada and further added in some of the same posts that the feds tell the provinces what they can and can't do. I can search out those posts for you to reference if you like.

Any province will let you put 5 motors on a bicycle if you can find a way to do it. You just cannot put it on the public roads. They can only be used on private property.

With regards to Ontario what act is it that clearly and without question says such things?

Well the police are certainly right. What does a bike become when you put a motor on it other than a "motor" bike.

Really? Does a bicycle become a shopping cart the moment you attach a shopping basket? If you attach pedals to a motorcycle does it become a bicycle? When I visited a local MTO office on my modified bicycle the official I spoke with said as far as they (the MTO) were concerned it was still just a bicycle so who's right?

Read my above posts again. The federal government requires a vin number and approved makers plate. You don't have these and the province won't give them to you so you can't register it or ride the bike on the road.

Correct when your talking about purpose built motor vehicles, we have bicycles tho.

The Official Ontario Web Site as sent to me shows what is allowed by the province of Ontario on the roads in Ontario and brother until I see a bicycle with a motor on there they are illegal to put on the road.

I know what web page you visited at the MTO's website but maybe you didn't read the part before all the pretty pictures where it says...

"This information update is to be used as a guide only. For official purposes, please refer to the Highway Traffic Act."

The highway traffic act supersedes anything posted on the website and I'm glad it does because even the best webmaster can make an error and cause much grief to both the public and the government.

Argue away. Keep trying to turn what I've said to your advantage. Really please I find it very amusing and at times down right laughable

This is not some kind of win all the arguments with Steve game for me, I'm trying my very best to avoid arguing with you while also trying to politely correct you when you sometimes post information that is not true or factual.

Don't complain, organize motor bikers across Ontario and go to Ottawa and Toronto and show them that we aren't a bunch of 14 year olds ripping up the neighbourhood. Thats what brings change.

Personally Steve I don't want change because the way I see it the only change that will come will be an act, or an amendment to one of the current ones, that for sure outlaws our hobby. As I posted previously when Ontario amended the Highway Traffic Act so as to allow power assisted bicycles (aka eBikes) the government gave the cold shoulder to the DIY ebike community and that's even after members from that community of like minded people showed up at Queens Park when the changes to the Highway Traffic Act were being debated by our MPP's. If they wouldn't include them in the amendments that were made at that time it's highly unlikely that they will want to include us in any future amendments other than to maybe without question outlaw what we are doing.

 

[fasteddy]

well then roll over and play dead.They already outlawed your bike.

Once again enough said by me.

Steve.

 

[Rockenstein]

well then roll over and play dead.They already outlawed your bike.

As much as you and a few police officers would like us all to believe no they haven't.

Do you wear a badge by any chance Steve

 

[fasteddy]

LOL,and a cowboy hat and boots and 2 Kit Carson cap pistiols.
No the last time was about 60 years ago but I did marry one though, does that qualify.

Well I looked at your Ontario web site and since it was not in the legal description of what they were allowing to be drven it was just natural to think that they were illegal.
In my school they always said the opposite of legal was illegal. So if it's not in the legal description then it must be ???? illegal.

Steve.