Ultra High Density Clutch Pucks

[MarkSumpter]

Ok folks I am getting ready to test out some Ultra High Density Bendix clutch material for the china girls as clutch pucks.

This is rigid ferrous impregnated material that produces very little dust.

The material is very expensive and if I make these available to everyone I will have to get them cut out on a waterjet which is also expensive.

The upside is that you can get a clutch puck that fits the cut outs on the clutch with little to no fitting involved and a greater degree of performance and life from the pucks themselves.

I saw another post that had round pucks out of a similar material that were selling for $25 per set which I thought a little high.

I am researching this to see if you all think these would be something worth pursuing and if I can cover the material and machining costs and still make a small profit.

What I need to know:

• What price range do you think fair for an alternative to the OEM sets ($6.50 per set of 15)?
  
• Do you think this is an item that is needed that you would try?

The Poll allows you to answer both questions.

Thanks
Mark

 

[rohmell]

Um, I think the math is wrong:

 

[MarkSumpter]

Um, I think the math is wrong:

It is because it is a 2 part question and if you vote that they aren't needed then it throws the percentages off and likewise if you only answer one of the 2 questions. I can still get a good sense of iof they are needed and what price range is right by the number of votes....

Thanks

 

[rohmell]

Oh, I see.
OK. Good Luck with your clutch pucks!

I use a centrifugal clutch on mine, so my pucks are hardly used.
Well, I can't really say that, can I?
My pucks spend most of their time fully engaged.

 

[GearNut]

Yes, and let's see what you value them at after doing all the work to make them.
Underselling is no fun!

 

[MarkSumpter]

Yes, and let's see what you value them at after doing all the work to make them.
Underselling is no fun!

I know that is right! I have to make enough for it to pay all of the concerned expense associated in making these things and then a little for my time. This isn't my first rodeo.

One thing I have found after measuring several carrier rings is that they vary in puck size as much as .030" so a median size will have to be made towards the high side and end users will have to sand them down for the smaller carriers.

Realistically this material is around $60 per square foot for 1/4" and about $10 more for 5/16" and when you purchase it you have to buy it in 3'x5' sections. I just faxed off the puck dimensions I cam off to the water jet guys and am waiting to hear what the yield per square foot will be after allowing 1/8" per part for the water jet cutting clearance as well as price to cut it. When they are done my end is easy to just snip them out with side cutters and deburr the tang on my belt sander and package them. However the initial outlay will be high but when I have this number back I can more realistically set a working price.

Off to the shop I just got my first set cut out with the bandsaw and am going to go fit them into the carrier and see how well they work.

 

[DuctTapedGoat]

I'm unfamiliar with bendix, so, is it unrealistic to make a punch to cut this material?

The cost of a punch will save you time, material, money, outsourcing, etc. When you consider less than a minute per puck, it adds up.

 

[MarkSumpter]

I'm unfamiliar with bendix, so, is it unrealistic to make a punch to cut this material?

The cost of a punch will save you time, material, money, outsourcing, etc. When you consider less than a minute per puck, it adds up.

Goat Bendix is one of the worlds largest manufacturer of automotive parts. They make evierything you can imagine from wiring to brakes to hydraulics and clutches as well as a large variety of machining and industrial products.

I wish a punch or Die would work for this application but this is a composite material that is impregnated with very find pieces of metal and also Kevlar that is very dense. I cut the pads out yesterday on my bandsaw and it was tough going but the were finish shape able with the carborundum belts on my sander. Think of automotive brake pads on steroids.

I actually got them in the bike last night and zipped around in the dark for a few minutes and they felt fantastic. They really gripped well. I will get out today if it stops raining and get some miles on them and let you all know the results.

 

[DuctTapedGoat]

Nice - can't wait to hear how they are holding up (or rather, maybe how your clutch plate is holding up) after a hundred or so miles.

 

[MarkSumpter]

OK I just got back from about 15 miles of hard riding up hills and standing take offs... So far so good... these things definitely grab and hold torque far better than the OEM pucks. I pulled off the clutch cover and no dusting so far either. I will let you all know more when it hits 100 miles and I tear into into it to inspect the clutch plate and pressure disk...

 

[nhssdf4]

I am very interested in this concept. Please post back whenever you get a chance.. I put alot of wear and tear on my motor, and these would be greatly sought after

 

[Fulltimer]

Good luck and I really hope these things work!

Terry

 

[MarkSumpter]

OK since installation have a little over 200 miles on the pucks and they are still going strong. I pulled the clutch cover off this morning and took off the flower nut and inspected the clutch. Everything looks good no damage to the clutch plate or pressure plate. The pucks have not flattened and are still free in the carrier and show very little wear and only a very little amount of dust is in the cover.

That is the good news. The more somber news is that I just got my first set of working numbers together to get a better handle on what I will have to charge for the puck sets.

The first number to lay into the equation is material. As I said earlier it is about $60 per sq foot and I have to buy it in 3'x5' sheets so a full sheet is $900 (ouch!).

The next number is the cost of getting them done on the water jet. I thought the material price was high till I got these numbers.

This translates to:

Material:
$60 per sq ft divided by 250 pucks per foot = .24 ea
$900 for a full 15 sq ft sheet divided by 3500 pucks = .26 ea

Price per set materials and labor per sq ft production run:
.71 Labor + .24 material = .95 total per puck X 15 pucks per set = $14.25 per set

Price per set materials and labor for full sheet production run:
.53 Labor + .26 matterial = .79 total per puck X 15 pucks per set = $11.85 per set.

Yield:
250 pucks per ft production run divided by 15 pucks per set is 16.6 sets per foot

3500 pucks for a full sheet production run divided by 15 pucks per set is 233.3 sets for a full sheet


As you can see the advantage is a full sheet run but it would be a very slow return on the investment of that size. And as I said this is not factoring in my time to cut out the pucks from the sheet, deburr, package and ship them (not counting gas for transportation and other real related costs like electricity and shop supplies).

Any comments? I will be taking the material I have on hand to get what I can cut out in the next week or so and make a few sets available at cost for testing but it sure looks like if I sell this to the retailers and make any money at all on my end they will probably have to be in the $20-25 range unless I can swing doing a full sheet production run.

 

[MarkSumpter]

I am not giving up on this project, I just got off the phone with the material rep and he is researching what kind of a quantity and price it would be to get 12" bars molded the same dimension as the pucks and then I could set up a stop on my bandsaw and cut them to whatever thickness I want and bypass the Water Jet cost.

 

[Dan]

Purty awesome Mark. Best of luck and put me down for a set.

 

[ferball]

The $25 - $30 is not unrealistic considering what people are willing to drop for Expansion chambers and shift kits. If these become another one of those must have upgrades you will have no trouble selling them.

 

[MarkSumpter]

The $25 - $30 is not unrealistic considering what people are willing to drop for Expansion chambers and shift kits. If these become another one of those must have upgrades you will have no trouble selling them.

Ferball thanks for the reply and I do agree that there would be a market for them at whatever the price but my end goal is to make them something that will appeal to a broader range of riders in the $12 to 14 dollar range and thus hit a broader market by selling more kits.

I do have a couple of ideas to upgrade the clutch system also with a different puck design specifically for racing that could well cover any shortfall the standard puck design would create.

Needless to say the material works well so far and I am just trying to find the proper manufacturing method to deliver it to others at a workable price.

 

[DuctTapedGoat]

You're right Mark - if you sell at the price that kit stores online are selling a set of regular rubber clutch pads for, you will take money right out of their pocket, at least from these guys.

Do you have any plans to ever sell directly from your website? Might be a good idea to start getting products out there like this one.

 

[Fulltimer]

You can put me down for a set also.

Terry

 

[MarkSumpter]

Hey guys thanks for the support and the pending orders. I still have some production issues to iron out to make sure that I can produce this part at a cost that will be attractive to all china girl users.

I did get a snotty phone call from someone yesterday ( Some of us have no doubt who) via posting my phone number and contact info on my website (which has since been removed) saying that I am not really making or testing these and that like another vendor I am infringing on their turf and will be dealt with accordingly.

To that person I say that you didn't follow through with your testing or design and my new pucks are not even close to your material I am sure. And if you want an image take this slightly blurred one ( on purpose so you cant identify my material supplier)...

And as for a response to you...

NUTS!

Sorry for the Rant!