riveted gas tank?

[Royale]

While I wait for my new engine parts to come in I was thinking about what I'm going to do in regards to a gas tank. I have no experience welding and would rather do all the work myself, even if it makes things more complicated. I remember reading somewhere that some of the old Harleys had riveted tanks?

I feel confident that I could create a template, bend and rivet a box together for a tank, but my question is how best to seal it? I would imagine that in the corners there would be a very small amount of space gas could leak out. Should I just us epoxy or JBweld to seal all around these edges and put some on each rivet as I go around so that those are sealed too? Or maybe just build the box and put a layer of fiberglass over it?

I was also curious if anyone had built a tank such as in my lovely photoshop image below? It's not my bike but the frame is the same, '51 Schwinn. I made the tank translucent so you can see the frame rails. The tunnel is going to have to be quite large which may cause some issues with fuel getting trapped on one side, but can be angular so that I don't have to rivet something curved. Maybe run two spigots, one per side, and have them meet outside the tank to solve the fuel issue?

Anywho, just some ideas, thoughts/suggestions?

 

[Goat Herder]

Welcome to the forum Royale! Sounds like a riveting experience. lol Sorry I could not resist the pun. What I would do is fab it up to shape cherry! Then simply take it to a local welder. A local muffler shop could prolly pull this off? They weld about the same gauge steel on a regular basis.

Are you going with steel or aluminum? If Aluminum you will have to find a different welder. Still very possible. Many members here will have some great ideas.

 

[2door]

Don't use JB Weld. Most other glues won't do it either.
If you don't want to pay someone to weld or solder the tank you might explore some of the well known fuel tank sealers available. KBS Coatings, Caswell, and Kreem are some of the most common brands.
Good luck.

Tom

 

[bairdco]

kreem wouldn't work, it has a tendency to peel, and isn't very good at sealing cracks and holes.

i think the best sealer on the market is Caswell. it's an epoxy, and seals holes and cracks.

if your seams are tight, Caswell should seal it up. i'd coat it twice to make sure.

i've been messing around with the stuff and it's really strong, and can be used as a glue as well. it cures as a hard, semi-clear plastic.

you could probably even make a mold and make an entire tank out of it.

 

[Mr.B.]

Welcome to the Forum!

For a short time Harley did use flat and narrower riveted tanks on their racers- 1915 shown.

But it’s actually two side by side tanks. Perhaps copying that would be easier than having a tall tunnel built in?

And soldering the seams actually is pretty simple, check out a nice example starting on page 12 of Silverbears “Indian Hiawatha” thread...

http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=32998&highlight=tinsimth's+in+frame+tank&page=12

Although a soldering iron is used here it could be done with slightly heavier sheet & a simple inexpensive propane torch...

Especially easy if the panels are already riveted together.

At any rate there are plenty of threads here about tank building, good inspiration stuff to research.

Good luck & looking forward to your build!

-Kirk

 

[Royale]

Thanks for that link that was great inspiration!

I would just have it welded up but I'm a bit low on funds right now. I do work with some welders but they are always very busy and this would be a big inconvenience to them to do a whole tank. I am going to have them help me weld up a seat mount though.

I'm more the type that wants to do everything myself if I can. That's part of the fun of building the bike. I have rivets, solder, and a torch so I think I should be able to do it. I've never soldered steel though, I'll have to google that process. I also have years of experience in computer 3d modeling and CAD so making the templates precise for the tank panels will be easy and will take out a lot of guess-work before getting my hands dirty.

I'm grabbing the bike out of storage tonight so I can measure it up and work on it in CAD. I'll post what I come up with. I'm debating the one vs. two tank idea now. The only thing I don't like about the two is that the top bar doesn't follow the tank line so there would be a big gap. Hmmm....

 

[2door]

Royale,
CAD will help but good old cardboard templates are still one of the best ways to make parts that fit. You can cut and trim it until every corner and curve are perfect then transfer your cardboard pieces to metal.

I know it's more expensive but copper or brass is a little easier to work with and to solder if that's the route you're considering.

I also agree with Bairdco regarding Kreem. I've talked to some motorcycle folks who tell me it doesn't stand up long term to alcohol based fuel as well as Caswell or KBS.

Good luck and keep us posted on your tank/bike build.

Tom

 

[bairdco]

i've used Kreem on a couple of copper tanks i built, and it never worked right. for one, it doesn't adhere to copper as well as steel. it comes with a metal etching solution that doesn't do anything to copper but turn it black.

another problem was after a buddy's bike fell over and cracked a seam, the Kreem leaked and then burned when i had to resolder it.

i know Jeff (ccc) had problems with one of the cheaper sealers, either Kreem or Por, and ended up with a tank full of chunks.

the new tank i built for my "built for speed" bike is the first one i welded out of steel, and there was a bunch of pinholes that Caswell sealed right up.

it's the perfect stuff for the not so professional welder. it made me a believer...

 

[Tinsmith]

Mr Royale, It's easy for me to say, but I would seal it by soldering it. Like Tom said, copper or brass would be easiest, but light gauge steel shouldn't be a problem. A large iron would be easier than a torch (unless you have some experience) and copper or brass will take a higher wattage iron than steel. If you can get a seam or overlap riveted together tightly it should solder well.
What kind of rivets and how were you planning to rivet it together?

Dan

 

[Royale]

I was thinking about using stainless closed end pop rivets with a large flange. I read these in themselves have pretty good sealing capability for rivets.

I read online in regards to soldering steel and the general consensus was that brazing was the better option. I have never brazed anything although I do have access to an acetylene torch. Is it all that different than soldering?

I was also just out and took a look at some sheet metal to build the tank out of. What would be the best gauge steel to go with? I was thinking 22 gauge seemed hefty enough to hold up to the daily life this bike will see when complete. If a lighter gauge would work better though let me know. I know that it gains a lot of rigidity when the bends are added and I would like to keep the bike as light as possible.

 

[Banjoben]

Royale,
CAD will help but good old cardboard templates are still one of the best ways to make parts that fit. You can cut and trim it until every corner and curve are perfect then transfer your cardboard pieces to metal.

Tom

Didn't you know? CAD stands for Cardboard Aided Design.

 

[Tinsmith]

I'll give you what I think I know to be true, but there are guys here with a lot more metal knowledge than me, and we all have our way of doing things that work best for us. I choose to solder because that's what I did every day for 25 years so it's best for me when possible. Stainless rivets and solder won't work together all that well in my opinion. The 22 gauge sheet should be fine but you'll have to watch your heat with acetylene. Tom probably can help there. About the only thing I remember brazing was some cast iron pieces on an old hay elevator 30 years ago.

Silverbear and I put together a couple tanks out of 28 ga sheet metal and soldered them together and they worked fine.

Good Luck, Dan

 

[2door]

Good that Dan mentioned stainless steel fasteners and lead solder. No, they're not compatible. The lead will not stick to the stainless so there will be small voids around your rivets. Unless you use a sealer such as those suggested above you'll have seepage around the rivets. Even if they are the closed end types the lead will pool away from them and leave a space, though very small, for fuel to leak through.

Tom

 

[Royale]

Ah, good information to know!! Thanks guys. Is there a specific solder that works better than others?

I also have a propane and mapp torch, I only mentioned the acetylene because I read that it was the better option for bronze brazing. If solder will work though I would rather not venture into brazing which is something I haven't ever done.

I feel that the combo of riveting, soldering and Caswell should get it sealed up just fine.

I'm new to the tank design thing and am curious about fuel caps and petcocks. My original plan was to just cut up the peanut and use those parts. I may still do that for the petcock but I have an old copper can that has an interesting filler that I may cut up and use.

I assume it needs to breathe to displace the gas as it leaves the tank but I can add a breather tube on the tank somewhere. I think it would look good once painted to have a copper filler.

 

[bairdco]

i cut up a stock tank and soldered the filler neck to a copper tank with no probs. soldering it to steel should work, too.

i've also used brass plumbing parts for bungs, and others have used garden hose pieces you can find at hardware stores.

you usually have to solder a nipple onto the cap with a small piece of hose for a vent.

there's a bunch of different petcocks you can use, from inline ones to antique brass shut-offs. i've got an awesome brass one i just found in a bin full of crap at an auto parts place. i'll post some pics when i'm not on my phone.

 

[Ludwig II]

Aircraft tanks are formed by rivetting panels to the wing's skeleton. Leak sealing is achieved commonly by spreading a paste grade, 2 part, rubber sealant on the frame and then applying the metal skin to it and rivetting. The sealant is made for the job and is tougher than a tough thing that's just come back from a tough course.

Read and understand the health and safety instructions before opening anything though. Follow them to the letter, the activators are often highly horrible.

 

[Goat Herder]

That sounds tough!

 

[Royale]

I grabbed my bike out of storage and some of my engine parts came in yesterday!!

I totally forgot I snapped one of the pedals off my bike and my only replacement pieces at the time was off a pink little girls bike. lol

I am going to be replacing the pedals and the seat though with some more board track appropriate pieces. I'm getting excited to get it going again!

New pieces include a Puch hi hi 70cc head, SBP exhaust, Delorto 15.15 carb, and I have a new cylinder and gaskets on the way. The old cylinder somehow got lost when I moved.

Ideally I will get the motor together this weekend and start on the tank next week, although working 60+ hours a week doesn't make finding time easy so we'll see...

 

[Bigboy]

Double post

 

[Bigboy]

The easiest way to do a riveted the tank would be to make the
parts out of aluminum and use "Pro-seal" as sealant and "tank rivets"
which are like "pop-rivets" with a closed end.
All these parts can be found on the "Aircraft Spruce" website!
Worked great on airplanes for me!