my first case reed project
- Thread starter mrfubs
- Start date
Davezilla
New Member
Yes, the MBR one looks really good too...
here's mine, but now you guys got me rethinking this... I'm gonna keep it this way on this engine, but I'm also working a case inducted engine but at a much slower rate of progress as I'm still working out how i'm going to mount my reed and which reed box I'll finally end up using. I have been really thinking about going with the Arrow reed box a lot because that would speed up my progress considerably, but I got several different reeds to experiment with. what really attracts me to the Arrow setup is that it's proven and simple.
here's mine, but now you guys got me rethinking this... I'm gonna keep it this way on this engine, but I'm also working a case inducted engine but at a much slower rate of progress as I'm still working out how i'm going to mount my reed and which reed box I'll finally end up using. I have been really thinking about going with the Arrow reed box a lot because that would speed up my progress considerably, but I got several different reeds to experiment with. what really attracts me to the Arrow setup is that it's proven and simple.
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mrfubs
Member
what other reed box would you try to use? and it may seem simple but it is pretty dang time consuming, there is only about 1/8 inch of threads holding the reed block on along with Permanent red locktite, what ever though it was something i was doing to pass time so it didnt really matter.
mew905
New Member
1/8" seems like not enough to me, especially with the cheap aluminum these cases are made of, case cranking pressure I would think would be a real threat. If you need a set of reeds, there's a set I found for the Minarelli V1 on treatland.tv (I posted the thread "compatible intake for GT5a" or something like that in the intake section) that has 40mm bolt spacing, 4 petal just like the arrows, $130 + $12 shipping (at least to me, arrow would cost me $165 for theirs), arrow has narrower bolt spacing at 32mm, and a smaller intake, I think the ones you can buy separately are 3/4" O.D (~14mm I.D.). to fit the stock carbs, the ones that come with the race ported jug come at 18mm I.D., and the race case-reed are 25mm I.D. The ones at treatland are 24mm I.D. and the intake manifold itself is at a 90 degree angle coming out, so space wont be much of an issue. Grab that, and a Dellorto PHBG from www.aliexpress.com for about $45, and you've got yourself a no-restriction intake 
But I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned (I skimmed) that you'll lose primary compression due to the reeds adding volume to the crank case.
Reeds: https://www.treatland.tv/minarelli-...ve-intake-p/minarelli-v1l-24mm-reed-block.htm
19mm Carb with hardware: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/MINI...TOR-CARB-CAG-for-KTM-50-KTM50/1861694322.html
24mm carbs: http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=24mm+carb&catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20140520193401
I order from AliExpress frequently, it's like amazon so it's just a bunch of individual sellers, but easy enough to navigate and some excellent prices!
But I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned (I skimmed) that you'll lose primary compression due to the reeds adding volume to the crank case.Reeds: https://www.treatland.tv/minarelli-...ve-intake-p/minarelli-v1l-24mm-reed-block.htm
19mm Carb with hardware: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/MINI...TOR-CARB-CAG-for-KTM-50-KTM50/1861694322.html
24mm carbs: http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=24mm+carb&catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20140520193401
I order from AliExpress frequently, it's like amazon so it's just a bunch of individual sellers, but easy enough to navigate and some excellent prices!
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Davezilla
New Member
I've been experimenting a little with some RC model engine reed boxes as well as some from chainsaw engines of comparable size, I'm still in the "draiwing board" stage with it right now as I put that project on hold and bought a new bottom end and set it up with a decent performing jug, piston, and carb setup so I could keep my bike running while I got the other engine out and experimenting.
After seeing how Theon filled his case behind the jug with JB weld and got everything to fit, I was thinking about doing the same and using a DLE reed valve and block off a 66cc RC engine. This reed is also the same reed used in the OS GT60 rc engine and used in the RSE reed valve kits for these engines, or at least the Austrailian big block version uses this reed while the U.S. versions sold at JNM use a much smaller reed.
What's attractive about this reed and box is it's compactness and ability to flow well enough to support a 19 to 21mm carb (guessing by looking at the petals fully extended in it's box), and the price as these reeds cost about $16 for the reed and plastic reed box.
The other reeds I got over here looked like they would work well except for more fabrication required to make them fit.
The Arrow reed setup looks like it's just as easy to adapt and convert to case inducted. For the 1/8" thick area that it has to bolt to, if I was to use this reed I would countersink the holes from inside and use countersunk screws as mounting studs with a small slot in the end of each screw for a screwdriver to hold them still while installing or removing the reed box, this would eliminate the risk of stripping the threads but would require taking the cases apart to install the screws.
After seeing the reeds first hand and looking at different mounting options etc, I've pretty much narrowed it down to the DLE and the Arrow reed setup but hadn't made my final decision on which one I'll end up using, One is small, cheap, and flows well, the other costs more, it's bigger, but it's a proven performer. Also, I still need to buy an Arrow reed box and have it in my hand before I can really decide which way to go with this.
I love to tinker and experiment so there's no telling what I'll end up doing at this point.
mrfubs
Member
I like your clutch cable pully setup a lot! If my setup doesnt work out i may have to try that, how does the ckutch feel? Also i cant believe i didnt think of the counter sink idea, that sound like the best route im kinda kickin my self in the ass for not. Ah well ill see how this works out for now. Im pretty confident, the 2 bolts have a good torque on them and lock tited so in theory itll be just fine. I wanna see what you end up doing for a case reed setup this fabbing stuff is always interesting to see lol
Davezilla
New Member
With my 40mm bolt spacing the clutch side bolt hole comes through the case with not enough room to install a CS head from the inside.
Very good point you got there... That would be extremely difficult to countersink, not totally impossible, but extremely difficult without special tooling. That does give me a "plan B" idea tho depending on how much crank to case clearance there is in that area, I'm thinking it could be done with a M6 screw or bolt with half the head cut off, then shaved down enough to clear the crank, shaving off half the head would prevent rotation and shaving down the head to clear the crank, I'll look into something more on that note when I do mine... The helicoil half in the aluminum and half in the JB weld will work really good tho since there will be more metal for the threads to grip on. I really like that method too.
Davezilla
New Member
Thanks, I kinda copied that idea from another member in here where he made a post on his clutch roller, I gotta say it's dead smooth and a night and day difference from stock, I can actually feather the clutch more like a motorcycle with it this way. For your reed block, as long as it stays put and don't leak it'll work, if it does strip on you, you can borrow Theon's idea with the JB Weld and Helicoil which will be more than strong enough and most likely not have to split the cases to do.
I love fabbing stuff up so I may start it one way and end up with something totally different. I even madde a reed adapter out of a 1/2" thick pice of aluminum that bolts the GT60 reed to the standard intake port and uses a Walbro/Tillotson carb, I didn't use it tho because for the Tilly carb I got I need to route out some pump pulse ports for the carb to work, or make an adapter to connect the reed to a standard type carb. Since this reed valve is so small it could probably work without any case stuffing needed, I'll try that out sometime too... lol
mrfubs
Member
Also the hoca piston may never be used in these engines. The motobecane 1mm rings are non existant. 1977 mopeds are the only ones who list them but theyre actually 1.5mm thick not 1.0 so i have one more shot to make this work, i found some chain saw rings that are 1.2mm thick so i bought some and well see what happends
mew905
New Member
That sucks. Looks like the only way to use a proper piston is to simply go the expensive route and have the cylinder professionally plated. I sent them an email asking them to actually measure it because I'm finding rings for that motor in every flavor, 1, 1.5, 2mm, chromed, unmentioned...
mrfubs
Member
iv seen virtualy every ring out there that is 47mm in 1mm 1.2mm 1.5mm 2.0mm 47x1mm non chromed are very rare. if the Chinese wernt so cheap and plated with nikasil over chrome the life of the cylinders would dang near tripple, i would pay extra for a nikasil cylinder all day long.
Davezilla
New Member
I hear you there... The Nikasil plating in the aftermarket Harley jugs is sooo nice, but so is the cast iron liners used by Hammer Performance, they use a special blend that's rock hard to ensure a really long life with almost no wear, they even claim that they had to have some special diamond honing stones made just to hone these cylinders... Yes, I've been drooling all over their 1250 kit for my sportster and I got a killer set of heads set up and ready once I'm able to spend some more money on that bike, then it'll probably be faster than my fastest bike, the Intruder 1400 I got, that thing has enough torque to power wheelie just by cracking the throttle in 1st gear, no need to pop the clutch or pull back on the bars... that bike won't wait for you and will try to come out right from under ya... lol... Enough on that... I'd really like to see what a Sportster that weighs almost 200lb less with 110 hp and 90 ft/lb torque could do...
Now back to these engines... One thing I would really like to see is a good jug with a cast iron bore or an all cast iron jug with decent ports to use as a base for a killer build due to the durability and overheat forgiveness cast iron can offer, not to mention the ability to overbore in order to have better piston selection since there's a lot of 48 to 50mm pistons out there that would work really nice in these engines if we only had the right cylinder to bolt onto the bottom end.
So far, I've seen one with a Puch Athena jug with a 45mm bore and the crank stroked up to 45mm as well, and another with a Hebo Manston jug and they both ripped... I think the Hebo one may have been more powerful and faster, but the Athena was right up there with it. I have seen a few jugs on Treatland that have a cast iron bore that would probably work better than what we got now, but I don't think they could match the performance of the Athena or Hebo without extensive porting work.
Another really big concearn here is keeping the piston weight down in order to keep vibrations in check, a good static balance will help, but there's always that one resonant rpm that needs to be avoided since we only have one cylinder and balancing can only be done to make the engine run smoother in a certain rpm band since we can compensate a little for the off balance weight, but not so much for the piston acceleration using static balancing and balance factors to help modify what rpm band the engine will be the smoothest in. Heavier flywheels and solid mounting techniques can go pretty far for helping smooth out the engine, but with only one cylinder, there will never be a perfectly balanced engine that can run in any rpm smoothly... I'm still looking more into this and reading everything I can find to help me balance my next build. I do have to say tho that when I welded mounting tabs on my frame and solid mounted the engine it's the smoothest setup I've done so far.
Now back to these engines... One thing I would really like to see is a good jug with a cast iron bore or an all cast iron jug with decent ports to use as a base for a killer build due to the durability and overheat forgiveness cast iron can offer, not to mention the ability to overbore in order to have better piston selection since there's a lot of 48 to 50mm pistons out there that would work really nice in these engines if we only had the right cylinder to bolt onto the bottom end.
So far, I've seen one with a Puch Athena jug with a 45mm bore and the crank stroked up to 45mm as well, and another with a Hebo Manston jug and they both ripped... I think the Hebo one may have been more powerful and faster, but the Athena was right up there with it. I have seen a few jugs on Treatland that have a cast iron bore that would probably work better than what we got now, but I don't think they could match the performance of the Athena or Hebo without extensive porting work.
Another really big concearn here is keeping the piston weight down in order to keep vibrations in check, a good static balance will help, but there's always that one resonant rpm that needs to be avoided since we only have one cylinder and balancing can only be done to make the engine run smoother in a certain rpm band since we can compensate a little for the off balance weight, but not so much for the piston acceleration using static balancing and balance factors to help modify what rpm band the engine will be the smoothest in. Heavier flywheels and solid mounting techniques can go pretty far for helping smooth out the engine, but with only one cylinder, there will never be a perfectly balanced engine that can run in any rpm smoothly... I'm still looking more into this and reading everything I can find to help me balance my next build. I do have to say tho that when I welded mounting tabs on my frame and solid mounted the engine it's the smoothest setup I've done so far.
mrfubs
Member
Just wait its the matter of time before someone casts and makes their own cylinder for one these engines with a better idea for a cypinder liner. **** hopfully some one out there has a good connection with a shop that bores and plating and stuff to where they can strip these cylinders sleeve them or just nikasil plate them. What year bike do you have? It sounds like she runs like a raped ape haha.
I actualy was talking to the owner of that bike running the hebo cylinder and i have a few close up picturea of his setup of you want me to email them to you. He also said he is running the stock crank with stock balancing n crap nothing in the bottom end was modded lol.
I actualy was talking to the owner of that bike running the hebo cylinder and i have a few close up picturea of his setup of you want me to email them to you. He also said he is running the stock crank with stock balancing n crap nothing in the bottom end was modded lol.
i dont do anything to my 66cc grubee bottom ends but weld the sprocket tight. if it needs a new sprocket and clutch shaft then it gets one skf bearing too. then drive it more.
the 48cc are different setup however and i would be surprised if the block didnt have more problems concerning the crank assembly clearance issues being to great.
the 48cc are different setup however and i would be surprised if the block didnt have more problems concerning the crank assembly clearance issues being to great.
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Davezilla
New Member
That would be awesome if you could send me some closeup pics...
I'll give you my email in a PM. I've made a decision to buy a small CNC milling machine now instead of waiting until after I get my business going so I can start making and selling some goodeis on ebay etc, but you can bet that I'll also be looking at stuff to upgrade or maybe make some adapters/spaceers to make putting aftermarket jugs a much easier ordeal as well as the typical mounting upgrades, stuffing plates, copper and aluminum gaskets etc. there's also a LOT of room for improvement in the clutch area and I'd really like to make up a set of clutch pads out of a material that can work imersed in oil so we could seal off the clutch housing and put a small amount of oil in there to both quiet the gears as well as keeping the gears lubed properly.... but yeah, I'll PM you my email so you can send me those pics... I'd really like to see how that guy made his setup work.
Davezilla
New Member
That intruder is a 99 year model and it was pretty quick when I got it and i really didn't do a lot to it other than a set of Jardine drag pipes that I gutted out, removed both air boxes and swapped out the filters for K&N pods, jetted the carbs to match the setup, Dyna 3000 programable ignition and a few other minor mods. The bike weighs in at around 600lb and the engine only puts out around 80HP but almost 90 lb/ft torque and redlines around 6k rpm so it accelerates like a bomb.
The Sportster is also a '99 model and it has drag pipes, a sidewinder ram air intake, and tons of mods to the carb like a power jet, CVP needle, Yost Powertube, and a host of other CVP mods. It's fast but no where near as fast as the intruder... I got a set of heads from a 2006 Buell Firebolt but too much compression with the pistons that's in it now so I'm saving them for once I have the time to do a complete top end redo, but I'm expecting around 110 hp and 85 to 90 ft/lb torque after that engine is built, and that bike weighs only about 480 pounds so it's gonna be insane quick when done too.
mrfubs
Member
got my cranbrook the other day.
modded the seat post to lay farther back
im also using my kent la jolla handle bars. Ill be getting tires soon im not sure if i can use the kenda flame 3 inch because lack of clearance on my front fork, i may go with hookworms 2.5s
Im waiting for my sprocket hub adapter to arrive so i can mount my motor and once my motor is mounted i can weld my intake spigot on and then mount my carb setup.
modded the seat post to lay farther back
im also using my kent la jolla handle bars. Ill be getting tires soon im not sure if i can use the kenda flame 3 inch because lack of clearance on my front fork, i may go with hookworms 2.5s
Im waiting for my sprocket hub adapter to arrive so i can mount my motor and once my motor is mounted i can weld my intake spigot on and then mount my carb setup.
Davezilla
New Member
Looks nice... Those bars look sweet too!!
For that seat post mod, I did mine the same way and welded it back up but I could feel it flexing a lot when I took it for a ride so I stripped the paint off and welded a brace under the bend which stopped most the flexing when 220 pounds of me is riding on it...
There's also a guy in here that makes layback seat posts out of solid steel and I'm seriously thinking about getting one for mine because I keep thinking of what could happen if my seat post snapped and I fall down on the rear wheel at 30mph...
This is how I braced mine up with a piece of angled mild steel welded in... It's kinda hard to see because I was taking this pic of the engine/frame clearance but you can still see the seat post...
For that seat post mod, I did mine the same way and welded it back up but I could feel it flexing a lot when I took it for a ride so I stripped the paint off and welded a brace under the bend which stopped most the flexing when 220 pounds of me is riding on it...
There's also a guy in here that makes layback seat posts out of solid steel and I'm seriously thinking about getting one for mine because I keep thinking of what could happen if my seat post snapped and I fall down on the rear wheel at 30mph...
This is how I braced mine up with a piece of angled mild steel welded in... It's kinda hard to see because I was taking this pic of the engine/frame clearance but you can still see the seat post...