E85 anyone?
- Thread starter sseisup
- Start date
I don't see why you wouldn't run it other than the fact that it has less power on e85, which I guess is why you mentioned raising the compression on the four stroke. Is there a better reason than lack of power? Can't you up the compression on the two strokes as well? We have tons of e85 here in MN and somebody has to use it. I would like to be one of those people. I have ran three full tanks of e85 through my 2001 ford focus without issue. Everything I've read says the focus engine management though not intended to run e85 is flexible enough to handle it. The car has 241,000 miles so I don't care if it blows up but it's worked fine so far.
If you could, where do you get jets 20% bigger? and how do you know your at 20% bigger. I'm still on a learning curve here. How long have you ran e85 and just on a standard Chinese motor right? Thanks for the info, at least I know it can be done.
If you could, where do you get jets 20% bigger? and how do you know your at 20% bigger. I'm still on a learning curve here. How long have you ran e85 and just on a standard Chinese motor right? Thanks for the info, at least I know it can be done.
Dan
Staff
Interesting question Sseisup. I hadn't heard of e85 and have yet to see it sold here in CT but almost every pump has a sticker saying "contains 10% ethanol" but found this; E85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This article is critical an I dunno. States you will loose some umph and pay almost as much with no advantage. The Honda GX50 manual advises against more then 10% ethanol. I still hate OPEC!!! lol
From that page;
"E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasloine IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual octane engine tests." [12]
One complication is that use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. Use of E85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. This corresponds to a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) for E85 than gasoline.
E85 consumes more fuel in flex fuel type vehicles when the vehicle uses the same compression for both E85 and gasoline because of its lower stoichiometric fuel ratio and lower heating value. European car maker Saab currently produces a flex fuel version of their 9-5 sedan which consumes the same amount of fuel whether running e85 or gasoline,[13] though it is not available in the United States. So in order to save money at the pump with current flex fuel vehicles available in the United States the price of E85 must be much lower than gasoline. Currently E85 is about 15% less expensive in most areas.[14] More than 20 fueling stations across the Midwest are selling E85 at the same price as gasoline.[15] E85 also gets less MPG, at least in flex fuel vehicles. In one test, a Chevy Tahoe flex-fuel vehicle averaged 18 MPG [U.S. gallons] for gasoline, and 13 MPG for E85, or 28% fewer MPG than gasoline. In that test, the cost of gas averaged $3.42, while the cost for E85 averaged $3.09, or 90% the cost of gasoline.[16][17] In another test, however, a fleet of Ford Tauruses averaged only about 6% fewer miles per gallon in the ethanol-based vehicles as compared to traditional, gas-powered Tauruses.[18] (Please note this is questionable as the reference provided is non-existent on NREL's website.)"
From that page;
"E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasloine IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual octane engine tests." [12]
One complication is that use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. Use of E85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. This corresponds to a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) for E85 than gasoline.
E85 consumes more fuel in flex fuel type vehicles when the vehicle uses the same compression for both E85 and gasoline because of its lower stoichiometric fuel ratio and lower heating value. European car maker Saab currently produces a flex fuel version of their 9-5 sedan which consumes the same amount of fuel whether running e85 or gasoline,[13] though it is not available in the United States. So in order to save money at the pump with current flex fuel vehicles available in the United States the price of E85 must be much lower than gasoline. Currently E85 is about 15% less expensive in most areas.[14] More than 20 fueling stations across the Midwest are selling E85 at the same price as gasoline.[15] E85 also gets less MPG, at least in flex fuel vehicles. In one test, a Chevy Tahoe flex-fuel vehicle averaged 18 MPG [U.S. gallons] for gasoline, and 13 MPG for E85, or 28% fewer MPG than gasoline. In that test, the cost of gas averaged $3.42, while the cost for E85 averaged $3.09, or 90% the cost of gasoline.[16][17] In another test, however, a fleet of Ford Tauruses averaged only about 6% fewer miles per gallon in the ethanol-based vehicles as compared to traditional, gas-powered Tauruses.[18] (Please note this is questionable as the reference provided is non-existent on NREL's website.)"
I don't really want a debate on motivation for using e85 as I have made the decision to use it as much as I can for good or bad. I know by raising you compression (preformance heads or turbo) you can be just as efficient as gas but you have to know what your doing for fuel mixture or yes you can wreck your motor. I just want to try running it but don't know where to get jets or know how I'll have the right fuel air mix. Maybe I'll pick up a generic carb book and try to figure it out, again.
HoughMade
New Member
Here's my thinking. There is very little of a track record for E85 fueled, premix, 2 strokes. I will let someone else experiment. What I do know is that there have been problems getting petroleum based 2 stroke oil to dissolve in alcohol. However, fully synthetic, ester based oils seem to do better. In addition, there is an ongoing controversy as to whether ethanol has any inherent lubricity. Again, I'll let someone else figure that out. These issues are largely irrelevant with a 4 stroke, but in a 2 stroke where the alcohol will be coursing through the crankcase and that dissolved oil is all that keeps the engine from eating itself, I would not want to take chances.
If you do, have fun. I will watch and learn.
Here are the facts- E85 has less energy per pound (and less energy per gallon) than gasoline. What it does have is a much higher octane rating and the need for much less oxygen in order to fully combust. What this means is that you can run much higher compression (in a healthy engine) and reclaim some of the lost power. If you jet correctly- really richen it up, you can take advantage of that need for less O2. If you just richen, you may get close to the original power with gas, but not quite and fuel economy will be horrible. If you increase the compression enough and richen, you can make about 20% more power than gas. However, your fuel use will go up by way over 20%.
After all, the only way to make more power with a fuel with less energy content is to burn a lot more fuel in the same time.
If you do, have fun. I will watch and learn.
Here are the facts- E85 has less energy per pound (and less energy per gallon) than gasoline. What it does have is a much higher octane rating and the need for much less oxygen in order to fully combust. What this means is that you can run much higher compression (in a healthy engine) and reclaim some of the lost power. If you jet correctly- really richen it up, you can take advantage of that need for less O2. If you just richen, you may get close to the original power with gas, but not quite and fuel economy will be horrible. If you increase the compression enough and richen, you can make about 20% more power than gas. However, your fuel use will go up by way over 20%.
After all, the only way to make more power with a fuel with less energy content is to burn a lot more fuel in the same time.
HoughMade
New Member
The cooling effect only "makes power" indirectly, but it does help. The cooling effect allows a denser air-fuel mixture in the same way that an intercooler does. However, again, the real advantage (power adder) is the ability to run really high compression and shove a lot more fuel through without detonation and without overheating- of course, the cooler combustion really helps this.
Isn't gasoline a solvent too? I mean gas is pretty nasty stuff and it's made from the same thing as plastic and rubber so why would alcohol be more corrosive than gasoline? I get that it might not lubricate as well, but it is a liquid so it should do something. Interesting thread.
YouTube - E85 Ethanol Does not harm Non-FlexFueled Engines
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YouTube - E85 Ethanol Does not harm Non-FlexFueled Engines
People hate this video
camlifter
Active Member
i run a 50-50 mix of e85 and 87 oct. gas in one of our bikes, 66cc with higher compression and an expasion chamber exhaust, it runs really good. only draw back i've found is it is harder to start on cold days, takes more peddaling and have to use the choke more. the advantages i found is the mid range and top end power is smother, thats with a stock jet on a bike that was running rich enough to sputter on the top end. proper jetting would probably get the same results, it's just an experiment i've been playing with. no need for extra top end lube, i've been using the wallmart syntech oil with no problems.
HoughMade
New Member
Not doubting your experience- just being technical. Like I said- it does result in more power in the end.