Flyer Production

[sportscarpat]

Hi Rick,
The manual clutch bike is basically ready to ride. I'll offer up some impressions soon. The application required a fairly fixed adapter location with maybe an 1/8" adjustment either way. It also required a larger sprocket bolt circle and a custom offset brake reaction arm. All this combined I just set the adapter to my Bonneville standard offset which is a bit wider than the common moped standard and allows for a wider tire selection. I figure any application where the coaster brake is used should also get a front disc brake. When it comes to the front disc I can see I am slowly going to this as standard and moving away from the front drum. The bike I ride the most, my personal Sportsman 200 cruiser with bone stock engine, has discs front and rear.
Pat

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Hi Pat, the Sportsman 80 intake arrived in the mail today. Thank-you.
I guess next on my wish list will be your Sportsman 80 reduction drive. I am very interested in your appraisal of the 3d clutch, and what sprocket on that clutch best suits a Sportsman 80.
Tom

 

[sportscarpat]

So, that whole 3d Motorsport clutch thing. I actually rode the bike last night in the dark and in the rain. Yes, I really wanted to ride it. I'll post more later but it bump started right up, worked as expected, and the sprocket adapter functioned perfectly. What I will say is it's pretty cool having a manual clutch on a 200cc motor bike.

 

[indian22]

Welcome update! Coupled with the front disc brake I think you will be amazed at how quickly you can stop the lightweight Sportsman with 200 cc's of compression braking, which will also test the functionality of your newly designed hub adapter on deceleration as much as under acceleration...I'm thinking the hub & adapter will stand the test. Please more results as they are encountered on all new components in use. Rick C.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Great news Pat, I am really stoked by the melding of 3D clutch and Sportsman reduction drive!
Tom from Rubicon

 

[sportscarpat]

Finally no rain and a chance to flog the manual clutch test mule Sportsman 200. I would like to say the new clutch adds a whole new dimension to my 200 model. We have all messed with the manual clutch on a China two stroke so it certainly is familiary territory in operation. What is different in this application is of course the power of a 200cc engine and the excellent quality of this 3D Motorsport clutch. The bike is very easy to start. I pedal it, dump the clutch, and when it pops to life I just pull in the clutch, rev it up, then feed in the power with the clutch to the drive system and off I go. I also found after I aclimated myself to the system I would just putt around and lug the engine down low in the rpm band. With a centrifugal clutch I am always above 3000 rpm to keep it engaged. That was really the single biggest advantage, low rpm operation. Here is the first video to explain the system (blah, blah, blah).

Manual Clutch Flyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

 

[sportscarpat]

Let's fire that bad boy up!

Manual Clutch Flyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

Manual Clutch Flyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

 

[sportscarpat]

One more quick post. Not sure if I showed you guys this, yet. Found out about these cool military engines from Tim at Big Boy Cycles. 133cc vertical mount push rod four stroke. Thinking I may mess with them. They are even American made, yeah! The quality is very impressive. Removalable baffled oil pan, external pushrod tubes, mechanical fuel pump, and the list goes on. I pulled the cast aluminum valve cover and you should see the rocker arms, way cool. It appears every bearing is either tapered or a needle bearing. Since it's government issue for the military there was no expense spared in it's manufacture. Check out those spark plug and ignition module leads, totally shielded against ingition noise and weather. It's a perfect fit in a Flyer frame. I wasn't looking to figure out yet another engine mounting system but this engine obviously deserves some attention.

Military Flyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

Military Flyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

Military Flyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

 

[butchl]

How much does that weigh??

 

[indian22]

I didn't need convincing yet your videos did just that anyway. Having just scored a new Predator 212 I'm ordering a 3 D clutch as well...just what I needed another Winter project while procrastinating on completing my current one.

Really impressive military surplus. Let me know if you find a 50 cal. MA deuce to mount on the roll cage of my Bronco desert truck. It would be a coyote deterrent for sure.

Rick C.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Just me saying Pat, but if you produced longer videos via YouTube I suspect you and 3D could develop a new niche market. Might do well with the racers too. Actually the racers should be the first customers, the engine braking feature being useful.
Tom

 

[sportscarpat]

Hi Tom,
The centrifugal clutch bikes do have compression braking as long you stay above 3000 rpm. As far as longer videos I would say I need more practice. There were plenty of times I had to stop because I laughed or said something stupid. Like "engage". Do you engage the lever to disengage the clutch? Heck, I don't know. You pull the lever in and the clutch spins free. Not sure if that's engaging or disengaging. I really should know the difference. Anyway I doubt I could keep an audience "engaged" for very long......

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Hi Pat,
I think the problem is you are a bit camera shy. Fear not, your master craftsmanship will shine. You can let the wise guys on the forum correct the nomenclature. Keep us up to speed on the combination of your drive system and how it functions with the 3D clutch.
A email is sent to you soon.
Regards, Tom

 

[Velodrome]

If this guy can do it you can.

 

[sportscarpat]

Hey Velo thanks for the compliment! I have always been a Star Trek fan. Actually, I find anything space related interesting.

 

[indian22]

Hi Tom,
The centrifugal clutch bikes do have compression braking as long you stay above 3000 rpm. As far as longer videos I would say I need more practice. There were plenty of times I had to stop because I laughed or said something stupid. Like "engage". Do you engage the lever to disengage the clutch? Heck, I don't know. You pull the lever in and the clutch spins free. Not sure if that's engaging or disengaging. I really should know the difference. Anyway I doubt I could keep an audience "engaged" for very long......

Pat the "live" clutch, regardless of who the manufacturer is...or type utilized (wet type or dry), adds so much flexibility in that low RPM scale, from idle to engage, the centrifugal clutch never uses, engine idle speed to 3,000 RPM (on your application) is mostly lost...with the manual clutch both acceleration and compression braking are enhanced & utilized through the low to mid range engine speeds, that's approximately 2,000 additional RPM's found at precisely where they are most utilized...down low in the scale for both acceleration & braking. It's nice to gain on the top range RPM but I seldom use it, but always & without exception I go from idle to at least 3,000 under power and moving.

An old fashion term I seldom see or hear used anymore is "tractability" ...the efficient harnessing of power to control the motion of a vehicle & the addition of a manual clutch to your fine bikes is a definite (legal issues aside) improvement in my humble opinion...of course I'm not a fan of pull start designs (bad shoulder) so pedal bumps for starting are also a big plus in my thinking. I'm hoping the tests continue to turn out well for you on the 3 D as I'm going to eventually use one on my 212 Predator engine.

Rick C.

 

[sportscarpat]

Hi Rick,
Interesting thoughts. I am familiar with the word tractability. As i put more miles on the bike and let others ride it I have discovered a few things. For one, riding a centrifugal clutch bike is about as simple as it gets. Just give it gas and go. It takes a bit of skill to feed in the clutch smoothly on a single speed bike with tall gearing. I adapted quickly but handing the bike off to someone else and they typically chatter the clutch the first couple times. Changing the gearing will help. I had a friend ride it and he said it was lifting the front tire under acceleration. I really didn't believe him till I saw my brother do the same thing. The other thing I notice is that the drive train takes more abuse from the manual clutch. The centrifugal clutch dampens the shock load. The manual clutch does not automatically do this. Best to have a pretty tough bike and properly mounted engine with a manual clutch.
So far my new sprocket adapter has not budged even with the added low rpm load. The Sturmey rear hub is also performing quite well. The bearings have stayed in adjustment and it's braking operation seems adequate.

 

[indian22]

Pat I totally agree with what you just posted. I'm reading between the lines and added a bit to what you said...so I'm thinking this test phase has been a lot of fun for all of you who've participated & I also know that through it all you must also consider if the changes made are marketable, well built and safe...while still producing a decent profit. I'm hoping the answer is yes to all.

Your comment on the stress' a manual clutch presents and the challenge to control them while offering optimal everyday riding performance is just that... a challenge. Inexperienced riders have learning curve problems on even the most advanced hi tech cycles...clutch chatter on a dry clutch, single speed drive train probably just a tweaking & adaptation issue. Lifting the wheel on acceleration tells me that you are very close to the solution on gearing already if your previously posted speed parameters have been met or exceeded. Since your hub adapter hasn't slipped on the Archer while pulling the wheel I'd suggest that is also close to a "pass" too. Disc brake up front, compression braking and larger rear coaster should have impressed you also...safety first!

Total weight of my Simplex with the 125 CC has to be significantly heavier than your test mule & it stops & accelerates great; even when I've tested her just using 3 rd. gear as a single speed in varied riding conditions. I've also seen that hard acceleration with a large 54 tooth final & 5 speeds, coupled with 12 hp, 3 inch width rear tire and weight (120 lbs. or so) while lifting the tire and braking rapidly, has not budged your standard Shimano style hub adapter. Great design job on that one by the way, so I'd not expect your new adapter to do less.

Since I'm a one off builder & not limited by market issues I always have fun and it sounds like you are also having a blast as well. Merry Christmas, Rick C.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Well, I have read enough of Pat's evaluation to say that for now my Sportsman 80 will use the Bully clutch. If needs be next year, I may upgrade to a GX160 power plant and give the 3D a try. I will soon send Pat an updated wish/need list. I got some bad advise by another MB supplier and kicking myself in the tail for doing so.
I have wasted precious time trying to use components that were not Sportsman Flyer.
Keep on posting the new developments Pat. This is valuable archival material for this forum.
Tom

 

[sportscarpat]

Thanks guys. If I wasn't having fun I wouldn't be doing this. Like most of us I grew up riding bikes. Thrashing around the neighborhood on a BMX bike still puts a smile on my face. Putting a clutch on my Sportsman 200 allows for that low speed "tractability" which I am still exploring, and now that the chassis and drive train have proven they can handle it I may try a smooth pavement burnout.