I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas motorized bicycles

GoldenMotor.com

decoherence

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
476
2
0
sebring,fl
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

i rode a mountain bike w/street slicks for about 15years as my primary transport.
for the last decade i have ridden 2 scooters that are tagged a a motorcycle.

the common enemy is "cagers". that is what we call them in the scooter community. because they don't pay attention like someone on two wheels because they have a safety cage around them.

first we need to know exactly what we want.

i would like to see gasoline powered bikes written back into the law.for people w/o DL. they will have to keep it under 20.
also a path to being able to have homebuilt mopeds being registered.
to drive up to 30.
lastly mopeds should be able to drive 35mph for the reason that 35 is the speed limit in most areas that are not highways..
by doing 30mph cars have to overtake the rider making for possible accidents.

things that might help our cause.

some cities make you register your regular bicycle.
so have it that all motobikes do some sort of registry.
the way the state would do that is with a small tax.
it would also help in recovering stolen bikes.
or @ the driver licence place there could be a computer test to make sure you know the basics. like when you get a motorcycle learners permit. they could charge 5 or 10$.

thoughts?
 

anim8r

New Member
Jul 15, 2011
243
0
0
Michigan
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

I followed motorbiker's link to the article about a bill regulating electric vehicles as consumer goods instead of as motorized vehicles. Turns out it's old news (2001) & the bill already passed.

I'm gonna go stand over here & pretend to read for a minute....
 

happyvalley

New Member
Jul 24, 2008
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upper Pioneer Valley

DuctTapedGoat

Active Member
Dec 20, 2010
1,179
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38
38
Nampa Idaho
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

That's why I say to everyone in Florida - contact people who will help, retired representatives would be great. Go to city hall meetings. Contact your legislature! Make something happen and be proactive about it.

Talking about it in a forum doesn't help one bit - us who aren't in FL will just tell you to either get an electric or be proactive and change things. To not go through the proper channels to change things is just laziness, really.
 

anim8r

New Member
Jul 15, 2011
243
0
0
Michigan
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

Why is it so impossible to register a bicycle in FL?
In MI, we take the finished bike & the motor to the Secretary of State & show em the receipts. If it doesn't already have a serial number stamped on it, they weld a VIN plate to it. A few bucks later, bam - you're registered.

Ohio's really bad about this kind of stuff, too. Any inquiry regarding a vehicle that's not a car or motorcycle gets the standard response: have some moped pamphlets! The pamphlets are usually just reminders to wear a helmet & mention something about top speeds. It cracks me up to see that other people in other states are getting the same dumb responses. I might have to make a short movie about this.

The fact is this is a highly unregulated hobby/mode of transport. We're gonna having some problems til each state works it out for themselves. Hopefully the regulations can either completely be avoided, or the gov'ts will be kind enough to let us keep this little freedom.

I really wish you FL riders the best of luck. 2 articles in the same paper in just over a week...it sounds like you're in for a rough one.
 

happyvalley

New Member
Jul 24, 2008
784
1
0
upper Pioneer Valley
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

Talking about it in a forum doesn't help one bit - us who aren't in FL will just tell you to either get an electric or be proactive and change things. To not go through the proper channels to change things is just laziness, really.
Messaging on forums is what forums are for, to alert, inform, to generate interest, build consensus and formulate action. Preaching at people usually does nothing. An informed public is better than not. It's simply a necessary step, otherwise what are we all doing here?
 

DuctTapedGoat

Active Member
Dec 20, 2010
1,179
10
38
38
Nampa Idaho
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

Florida has been a huge topic for a long time - nothing has been done yet. All that's happened is phone calls were made to the DMV, the states statutes have been hunted.

Currently, people are informed that motor bicycling with a gas motor is illegal in FL. People here are complaining about it - but I have yet to see anybody actually pursue enacting legal changes for the better. All I've seen done is more and more people say screw the law and keep riding gas bikes, people switching to electric bicycles, or give up the hobby entirely.

I can understand using the forums to network with people and formulate action - but all it is when FL comes up is people parroting the same thing that's been parroted for a long time. There's a point where either somethings got to happen or the state will make something happen - which will not be in the motor bicycling community's best interest. With all the news coming out of Florida and people bringing it up in the news (yes, I'm looking at you Jeff Arnett of Arnett Motor Bikes), there has been too much focus on it.

I hate to be a jerk - but I feel it's been long enough where I have to be. If you like gas biking in FL, get proactive, cause things are happening faster than you're acting. If you guys are going to go down, at least put up a fight first before you start investing in SLA batteries.
 

Arnett Motor Bikes

New Member
Apr 23, 2011
62
0
0
Fort Walton Beach, Fl
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

Good day to everyone. As you may or not know I have been battling for a lack of terms with local law enforcement in my local area. Just when I have them on something they seem to pull rank on me and tell me that the bikes are motor vehicles. I have done a great deal of research into this matter, and yes I run a business building them. I do have an active interest for the sell, but more importantly for what they really are. An economical means of transportation for anyone needing to get to work, school, or to the store. I have been through the city police and have a letter from the Police captain stating as long as they do not go over 20mph you can ride them as a regular bike. I also "funny enough" have visited the Sheriff's dept (which I currently am in a shouting match with) many times in the year of 2010 and repeatedly told they are bikes and you do not need a license. Armed with this information I continued to build and inform my customers of proper riding and rules of the road concerning a motorized bicycle. It wasn't until here recently did I find out that there was a few deputies out to stop the riding of our motorized transportation. My customers would call me at different times during the month saying that they were pulled over and harassed. I was in shock as to why they were getting pulled over. So I did the right thing by contacting the sheriffs department and tried to get to the bottom of this. As I entered the office I was meet with a familiar eye. It had been the deputy I had been talking to all this time. I asked him briefly about the issue and he told me not to worry about it we were ok. So I went on my happy way and continued the business as usual. Wasn’t until I was pulled over about 2 months ago did I really get fired up about it. The deputy walked around the truck quickly and told me that I was operating a moped without a tag. I tried to explain to him that I was operating a motorized bicycle. Well he heard nothing of it. Sharing everything in the world with me, but not listening to a word I was trying to tell him. So I did what any intelligent person would do, I changed the subject to something else in hopes I could get away from him quick. It worked—I started in on the truck he was driving and that’s all it took to turn his attention. Well you might add was this it for me? Not in the least. I this time was going to go to sheriff Ashley himself, after all I knew the man and go to the same church. You might say why didn’t you go to him in the first place? Well the reason is, because of my military training you always try to solve the problem at the lowest level possible. And now that I had gotten pulled over and threatened with jail time and whatever else came to the man’s mind, it was time to go to the big dog with this. But I never got to see him on the matter I was referred twice down the line to a sgt Jones. This guy was in charge of traffic for the county. I thought maybe this is the level I need to get it straightened out. So I got a phone appointment with him. When we spoke he mentioned that they were motor vehicles and I asked why he was stating that. His answer was because they were self propelled. I thought for a second of how he was dead wrong, but he said he would contact the DMV and ask himself to make sure. At this point I thought well now we will get somewhere with the TL-10 referring them as motorized bicycles. This should be an open and shut case for the issue. At least I thought this until he said the DMV lawyer he knows was an “old fishing buddy”. Right there was the point I lost the hope. And sure enough four hours or so later I found out the same bull they were feeding everyone else. Another dead end…..ok but one good thing came out of the conversation with him, he said something about the law getting changed. I thought this is the way to do it. So I mounted a crusade to meet with my Rep. his name was Matt Gaetz. This guy was a younger guy and I thought maybe I can get him on my side and win this. Well I made the meeting and had about a week to prepare. I made up two folders containing anything from state statues to email traffic to other state statues for easy reference for the law to be changed. He was very impressed with the information I presented to him and demonstrated. You see I took him outside and showed hime a gas powered and an electric powered motorized bicycle. He had told me that there seemed to be no difference between the two other than the power of which it helps the rider. I thought this might be the right guy for the job, I had a good feeling from him that he was going to help. He had stated to me that he was going to get with the sheriffs dept and see what the deal was, and if he didn’t get anywhere he would go to his friend the transportation rep for the state of Florida. Wow right? This had to be it I thought, but alas no. he had sided with the sheriffs dept and backed away from me. You see I didn’t realize this, but he was put in office from one of the most wealthy auto dealers in the panhandle of Florida. What does this have anything to do with it you ask? Well the big Sheriff Ashley is married to the guy’s daughter. Got to love a small town!! So I went nowhere with the rep. I was very disappointed in the result there. So it brought me to another change of plans for the business, I started to sell online only and would not build or sell a bike to anyone around here unless they were fully aware of what the sheriffs dept’s stance was with the bikes. You know the people just didn’t care about it, they still wanted the bikes, so I built them and they ride them. So which brings me to one of the last parts of the story the letter. Little did I know that one of my customers was pulled over in bay county Florida on a bike that I built for her. She had it rough, she was 16 miles from home and the trooper would not let her move the bike. She had to call her father to come and get her and the bike from the side of the road. He was not a happy camper with the trooper because of the stress he was creating for everyone. Long story short > she got the ticket for operating a motor vehicle without a license. The end result was the district state attorney’s office did nothing to her. In fact they gave her a letter from their own office stating that a license was not required to operate a bicycle with a helper motor. I have a the pieces to the puzzle on this. Starting with a picture of the bike, the receipt for the purchase, the ticket issued, and the letter given to her so she can ride again. So you see I do have a lot of time invested in this issue for myself and everyone in the state to ride in peace.
Going now to the statues in Florida lets look at the 322.01. now when you read this you think well it must fall under the self propelled thing because it doesn’t saying anything about a moped, well your right it doesn’t state moped in the definition for a motor vehicle, but according to a phone conversation I had with the district state attorney. He stated” this is a simple answer, who ever wrote the law did not look at 316.003 or 320.01 when they created it. This is why the case will be thrown out every time, the other two laws state something different on the same issue the other one is referring too.” So for the record mopeds are not motor vehicles or bicycles with helper gas motors on them. Read 316.003 about a motor vehicle and moped and 320.01 on a motor vehicle and moped. The sheriffs dept forgets to mention the other two laws that state the exact opposite of what they are saying. Look closely at the definition of the moped, they are not self propelled they need human pedal power to permit propulsion it reads this clear as day and we need to push the issue ALL OF US IN FLORIDA. In closing I would like to state that I have posted the letter and the ticket given to her on the very bottom of my home page. Home If you would like a copy of the letter email me and you will have it shortly. Yes SANGF I will give it to you this time.
Hopefully I was able to give you some sort of an idea of what has happened to me in the last year or so.
Reference material used: http://leg.state.fl.us/statutes http://www3.flhsmv.gov/DMV/Proc/TL/TL-10.PDF district state attorney’s office Stacy S Sharp/Florida Bar#0065066/850-872-4473
 

DuctTapedGoat

Active Member
Dec 20, 2010
1,179
10
38
38
Nampa Idaho
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

Finally! The Paula Paxton paperwork, thank you for finally posting that.

Still doesn't change the fact that you guys in FL need to gets laws protecting and regulating gas bikes before someone comes along and makes a law banning them or over regulating them.
 

SANGESF

New Member
Feb 23, 2009
641
0
0
Lake Worth
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

Finally! The Paula Paxton paperwork, thank you for finally posting that.

Still doesn't change the fact that you guys in FL need to gets laws protecting and regulating gas bikes before someone comes along and makes a law banning them or over regulating them.
That's all well and good, however.. I see nothing anywhere saying ANYTHING about a GAS motor anywhere in either of those documents.
The actual POLICE REPORT is what we need...
The report has ALL THE DETAILS..
The ticket is just that, a ticket and is not informative in the least.
The "no information" letter has NOTHING in it at all that has the word GAS.
I've seen nothing in either of those documents that shows Mrs. Paxton was riding a gas powered bicycle (on ticket it only states bicycle) nor was riding (and not pedaling) when encountered.
I've seen documents like this before and when you get to the rationale of the issue, you find out, it's not necessarily what you think...
 

SANGESF

New Member
Feb 23, 2009
641
0
0
Lake Worth
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

On a side note, I've not seen ONE person on a gas bike pedal.. NEVER, in the 4 years I've been in Florida... (and a few times, even riding, under motor power, on a sidewalk!)
My stipulation is, if you never pedal (except for the 1st 5 seconds to start the engine) you're riding a self propelled vehicle.. NOT self starting, but self propelled..
(even in a car or motorcycle do you have to do something (turn a key) FIRST, before it moves on its own).. So if I follow the logic of, "I have to do something to start the engine, makes it's not self propelled", then neither a car or motorcycle is a "self propelled vehicle" either, No?
Even my electric bicycle has a PAS system on it, so if I stop pedaling, the bike/motor stops providing power too.. THAT is the TRUE meaning of NOT self propelled..
If you could do the same with a gas engine on a bike, THEN I would concede it is not self propelled.
And this, "only 20mph" cr@p is a load of you know what, my old cr@ppy 25cc gas engine could make my 100+ bike go 24mph.
 
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DuctTapedGoat

Active Member
Dec 20, 2010
1,179
10
38
38
Nampa Idaho
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

If I'm in a hairy situation, I'm going to jump on the pedals, not the throttle. I keep my bike geared to where I can ALWAYS outpedal my motor. But when I'm doing a 30 mile commute, I'm not going to pedal that the entire time.

Heck - the first ebikes on the market were designed to maintain the speed they were pedaled to, not to accelerate.
 

Fulltimer

New Member
Aug 13, 2010
1,321
3
0
77
Saint Augustine, FL
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

Sangesf: Your post above, you are giving your opinion when you said "My stipulation is...". You have been running at the mouth saying you want proof of this and that, in writing on letter head etc. Now you are injecting your opinion.

My thoughts on what was posted concerning Ms. Paxton: if she had been riding an electrically powered bicycle she would not have been ticketed. That is because the laws of Florida address powered bicycles with an electric helper motor. BUT, she was ticketed. Why was she ticketed? Because she was riding a gas powered bicycle. Because of that there is no need to specify that it was gas powered.

Trying to nit pick a situation to death doesn't help matters at all. You use an electrically powered bicycle and it has been very obvious you have a disdain for gas powered bicycles. You fault anything that Mr. Arnett posts because he has a business selling these gas powered bicycles. But, he has done more to help our hobby here in Florida than you or anyone else on here.

Stop all the crap and put your energy into getting things changed here in Florida.

I am sorry that this seems to be a personal attack on you. I really don't want it to be. I'm just getting tired of you finding fault in everything that people are trying to do on here.

Terry
 
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SANGESF

New Member
Feb 23, 2009
641
0
0
Lake Worth
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

First off, did you ever see me type.. "I hate gas bikes"? Nope.
Second, I've said NUMEROUS times, I would LOVE to add a gas engine to my bike (so I could have a true "hybrid"). I just won't add one until I, PERSONALLY can produce a document CLEARLY STATING, I can ride a gas powered bike without a license, AND can use it on public roads, legally.
Remember this is a DISCUSSION board about laws and legislation, NEVER forget that. There are opinions, conjecture, facts, different points of view, etc, etc and damned will I be if I let ANYONE tell me that my own opinion is incorrect, especially when it comes to not having specific things I personally feel are needed for me to feel as if I'm perfectly legal and within my rights.

I HAVE to play "devils advocate".. Why is it that when I personally ask a question or make a statement, then everyone is in an uproar.. When someone else makes the same statements or poses the same questions or agrees with what I say, then it's ok, but god forbid, I do it....
Anyways, off the soap box/rant...
My OPINION (if that helps any) is that if I don't see the word(s) gas/engine in a letter or ticket or document, then I can't just ASSUME it should be related to gas... You can make assumptions all day..
Here's MY assumption in relation to the "PDFs"...

Paula was riding her bicycle up a big hill with the motor (electric or gas) running and was pedaling along with it...
The cop stopped her, and gave her a ticket based on the engine running...
So she goes to court and says, "I was pedaling and because the motor is only helping me pedal up this hill, it's not self propelling my bike..." The judge then goes, "ok, not propelling itself, she's pedaling, and the motor is helping her.. It's not a motor vehicle, case closed, you win.."
(This is just as valid as any other assumption, because all we have based on the data / information given to us, is there was a bike, a ticket was given, a court case, something about the bike not "self propelled" and not (in the Judge's eyes) considered a motor vehicle).
In other words, can you prove or disprove MY assumption? I don't think so. Know why? Because there is no other "evidence" we have other than a ticket about a bicycle and a document stating that bicycle was "not self propelled", not a motor vehicle and no license is needed by Paula to ride it.
FOR ME, the BEST way to disprove MY assumption, would be with the police report or court notes with more (specific) information that is contrary to my assumption.
 
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motorbiker

New Member
Mar 22, 2008
569
0
0
Tampa Bay Florida
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

Good day to everyone. As you may or not know I have been battling for a lack of terms with local law enforcement in my local area. Just when I have them on something they seem to pull rank on me and tell me that the bikes are motor vehicles. I have done a great deal of research into this matter, and yes I run a business building them. I do have an active interest for the sell, but more importantly for what they really are. An economical means of transportation for anyone needing to get to work, school, or to the store. I have been through the city police and have a letter from the Police captain stating as long as they do not go over 20mph you can ride them as a regular bike. I also "funny enough" have visited the Sheriff's dept (which I currently am in a shouting match with) many times in the year of 2010 and repeatedly told they are bikes and you do not need a license. Armed with this information I continued to build and inform my customers of proper riding and rules of the road concerning a motorized bicycle. It wasn't until here recently did I find out that there was a few deputies out to stop the riding of our motorized transportation. My customers would call me at different times during the month saying that they were pulled over and harassed. I was in shock as to why they were getting pulled over. So I did the right thing by contacting the sheriffs department and tried to get to the bottom of this. As I entered the office I was meet with a familiar eye. It had been the deputy I had been talking to all this time. I asked him briefly about the issue and he told me not to worry about it we were ok. So I went on my happy way and continued the business as usual. Wasn’t until I was pulled over about 2 months ago did I really get fired up about it. The deputy walked around the truck quickly and told me that I was operating a moped without a tag. I tried to explain to him that I was operating a motorized bicycle. Well he heard nothing of it. Sharing everything in the world with me, but not listening to a word I was trying to tell him. So I did what any intelligent person would do, I changed the subject to something else in hopes I could get away from him quick. It worked—I started in on the truck he was driving and that’s all it took to turn his attention. Well you might add was this it for me? Not in the least. I this time was going to go to sheriff Ashley himself, after all I knew the man and go to the same church. You might say why didn’t you go to him in the first place? Well the reason is, because of my military training you always try to solve the problem at the lowest level possible. And now that I had gotten pulled over and threatened with jail time and whatever else came to the man’s mind, it was time to go to the big dog with this. But I never got to see him on the matter I was referred twice down the line to a sgt Jones. This guy was in charge of traffic for the county. I thought maybe this is the level I need to get it straightened out. So I got a phone appointment with him. When we spoke he mentioned that they were motor vehicles and I asked why he was stating that. His answer was because they were self propelled. I thought for a second of how he was dead wrong, but he said he would contact the DMV and ask himself to make sure. At this point I thought well now we will get somewhere with the TL-10 referring them as motorized bicycles. This should be an open and shut case for the issue. At least I thought this until he said the DMV lawyer he knows was an “old fishing buddy”. Right there was the point I lost the hope. And sure enough four hours or so later I found out the same bull they were feeding everyone else. Another dead end…..ok but one good thing came out of the conversation with him, he said something about the law getting changed. I thought this is the way to do it. So I mounted a crusade to meet with my Rep. his name was Matt Gaetz. This guy was a younger guy and I thought maybe I can get him on my side and win this. Well I made the meeting and had about a week to prepare. I made up two folders containing anything from state statues to email traffic to other state statues for easy reference for the law to be changed. He was very impressed with the information I presented to him and demonstrated. You see I took him outside and showed hime a gas powered and an electric powered motorized bicycle. He had told me that there seemed to be no difference between the two other than the power of which it helps the rider. I thought this might be the right guy for the job, I had a good feeling from him that he was going to help. He had stated to me that he was going to get with the sheriffs dept and see what the deal was, and if he didn’t get anywhere he would go to his friend the transportation rep for the state of Florida. Wow right? This had to be it I thought, but alas no. he had sided with the sheriffs dept and backed away from me. You see I didn’t realize this, but he was put in office from one of the most wealthy auto dealers in the panhandle of Florida. What does this have anything to do with it you ask? Well the big Sheriff Ashley is married to the guy’s daughter. Got to love a small town!! So I went nowhere with the rep. I was very disappointed in the result there. So it brought me to another change of plans for the business, I started to sell online only and would not build or sell a bike to anyone around here unless they were fully aware of what the sheriffs dept’s stance was with the bikes. You know the people just didn’t care about it, they still wanted the bikes, so I built them and they ride them. So which brings me to one of the last parts of the story the letter. Little did I know that one of my customers was pulled over in bay county Florida on a bike that I built for her. She had it rough, she was 16 miles from home and the trooper would not let her move the bike. She had to call her father to come and get her and the bike from the side of the road. He was not a happy camper with the trooper because of the stress he was creating for everyone. Long story short > she got the ticket for operating a motor vehicle without a license. The end result was the district state attorney’s office did nothing to her. In fact they gave her a letter from their own office stating that a license was not required to operate a bicycle with a helper motor. I have a the pieces to the puzzle on this. Starting with a picture of the bike, the receipt for the purchase, the ticket issued, and the letter given to her so she can ride again. So you see I do have a lot of time invested in this issue for myself and everyone in the state to ride in peace.
Going now to the statues in Florida lets look at the 322.01. now when you read this you think well it must fall under the self propelled thing because it doesn’t saying anything about a moped, well your right it doesn’t state moped in the definition for a motor vehicle, but according to a phone conversation I had with the district state attorney. He stated” this is a simple answer, who ever wrote the law did not look at 316.003 or 320.01 when they created it. This is why the case will be thrown out every time, the other two laws state something different on the same issue the other one is referring too.” So for the record mopeds are not motor vehicles or bicycles with helper gas motors on them. Read 316.003 about a motor vehicle and moped and 320.01 on a motor vehicle and moped. The sheriffs dept forgets to mention the other two laws that state the exact opposite of what they are saying. Look closely at the definition of the moped, they are not self propelled they need human pedal power to permit propulsion it reads this clear as day and we need to push the issue ALL OF US IN FLORIDA. In closing I would like to state that I have posted the letter and the ticket given to her on the very bottom of my home page. Home If you would like a copy of the letter email me and you will have it shortly. Yes SANGF I will give it to you this time.
Hopefully I was able to give you some sort of an idea of what has happened to me in the last year or so.
Reference material used: Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine http://www3.flhsmv.gov/DMV/Proc/TL/TL-10.PDF district state attorney’s office Stacy S Sharp/Florida Bar#0065066/850-872-4473
Do you have a lawyer ?
 

motorbiker

New Member
Mar 22, 2008
569
0
0
Tampa Bay Florida
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

quote:

Although there was an attempt to
expand the 316 definition in the 2011 Legislature, it appears the bill did
not pass and the definition remains unchanged.

http://www.sheriff-okaloosa.org/pub...CSO Response to Motorized Bicycle Inquiry.pdf

The tea party wants the feds out of our business and the local cops all up in our business ? ? ?

Jeff is just trying to GET TO WORK and help others get to work Rick Scott ! ! ! Your tea party wants to shoot him down ! ! !
 
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SANGESF

New Member
Feb 23, 2009
641
0
0
Lake Worth
Re: I think Florida will be the proving ground for gas MBs

You forgot to add that, that quote came from a lawyer within the DMV...
So everyone at this point, is going to say, "that's a lawyer from the DMV and not the state, so what he says doesn't matter"... Just like they did with my letter from the executive director and her subordinates...
Good luck dude.