FL Gas Motorized Bicycle Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

[4950cycle]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

The Big Buggaboo with the answers are the sorce they came from. I saw no paper work to date that backs up what the Directer of the DMV has stated. Remember, He is a rule translater at this point not a rule maker. That would be a FL. Legislater (law maker). As Luo has said though. Maybe stirring this pot might not be a good idea. We did have things kinda going our way in the courtrooms in FL. lately. I hate to sound like I'm sticking my head in the sand. I am not. I just have had experiences with gov. employees always airing on the side of caution rather than to say "yea, I don't see any reason you couldn't ride a gas powered bicycle on the street" I'm sorry, I just can't see a gov. employee risking anything but something for their own interest. They don't care about you. All they care about is that cushey job of theirs, And not going out on a limb making any comments that might come back to haunt them and piss their superiors off.

 

[SANGESF]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

The problem stems from this...
1. Someone says.. Here are the Florida statutes.. This is what the statutes say.. (insert whatever statute you want). Someone else says... Well, forget the statutes.. The statutes don't say anything about a gas powered bicycle, it matters what the DMV says..

2. Someone says... Okay, here is what the DMV says..(insert DMV info). Someone else says.. It doesn't matter what the DMV says, it's what the statutes say...

People tend to want to take a small part from one thing and small part from another thing and a small part from something else altogether, to fit into what they want to be the "truth".

There have been anecdotal stories about many court decisions. Once the actual facts come out, they tend to go against registration and licensing of gas powered bicycles.
I personally have NOT seen ONE court decision that has stated clearly that you are allowed to ride a gas powered bicycle (under power) on public roads and/or operate it without a license. The DMV powers that be, have confirmed this with their correspondence with me.

Anyone else can take away whatever they want from all this discussion or ask their own questions and contact the DMV or state legislature themselves and get their own answers OR don't be bothered with any of it and just do whatever you want to do and reap whatever consequences, if there are any.

 

[4950cycle]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

Law is prescribed by inclusion not exclusion (unless plainly stated). For instance, There are laws stating you (non law enforcement) are not allowed by law to kill someone (not including self defence). It is not up to the cop, Judge, Director of anything ! to say or allow killing someone under certain circumstances. The law tells you you are not allowed to do certain things. An American dosn't assume he can't do something just because there is no law stating he is allowed to . But there "are" laws stating what you and I can NOT do under FL. law. This is how it is done in law. It tells you what you are not allowed to do. Not what you "are" allowed to do. So, Unless there is a law stating you can not ride a gas powered bicycle on the street you will win in court unless #1 the court is corrupt and insist you just aren't going to win. In wich case you take it to a higher court , #2 there is a law or court ruling on the books stating you can not ride a gas powered motorized bicycle on public roadways. # 3 You just don't have the gonads to insist the court abide by FL. state law or in this case the lack of. In other words no law was broken to begin with. Now, if you will allow me to be extreemly long winded,lol FL. Statute 316.003 Paragraph 82. (or under this paragraph) it states Operators of motorized bicycles do not need a valid driver's license and are not required to register them in order to "OPERATE THEM ON PUBLIC ROADWAYS " ! The only way you might lose is if your gas powered bicycle is defined or redefined as a moped. Then and only then you are screwed most likely. I understand what I read into laws most of the time and I am 3 and 0 (motions against previous court rulings) by the grace of God against the county of Broward in the state of FL.(non motorbike related) BTW, Broward can be real maneaters too.lol And I am not a lawyer. PS Thank you for your research and fruitful efforts Sangesf. I did not write this to subtract from what you have posted. Just an objective veiw. John / MAverick

 

[SANGESF]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

I agree with you...
Forget registration for a moment..
To follow your logic tho, there is a statute that defines a moped.
By definition a bicycle with a gas powered motor IS considered a moped. Period.
There is NO exclusion that says a gas powered bike is NOT a moped.
In terms of licensing, there is a statute that states a moped requires a license and the only exclusion that there is of concern, uses "motorized bicycles" AS DEFINED in 316.003(2) which is about electric motor bikes.

Now we come to registration...
IF you are going to use the above statutes and what is clearly defined by the HSMV, it states, you must register a moped. Now, if the HSMV says you can't register a bicycle (in ANY form) then you can't. Obviously there is the catch 22. You can't register it via the HSMV, yet the statutes say the opposite when it comes to the required registration of a moped (gas powered bicycle by definition).

The only "fight" you have in court IS that catch 22, when it comes to registration SPECIFICALLY.


The argument people will use is that if you can't register it, then you don't need a license to ride it.
Well, this has been discussed before (IN AN ATTORNEY GENERAL's opinion) on another matter of a non registrable vehicle and licensing. The AG's opinion was that even though a statute stated you can't register "something", that doesn't exclude that same "thing" from licensing requirements.

 

[4950cycle]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

I'm going to Alabama Dagnammit ! lol I've had enough. You are most likely right Sangesf. From what I have read as you have said, In definitions what a motored bicycle most likely is defined as is a moped by legal definition. But unfortunately has no official origin of manufacture and or if built in two or more steps call for even more red tape to register. In which case you really can not ride one legally in FL. unless you jump through these mutipal legal hoops, That is if they will even let you it being a bicycle. The most a guy in FL. can hope for is he lives in the interior of the state way up here in north central FL. like I where cops don't bother with such trivial crap as bicycles with harmless little motors like cops do in FL. coastal towns. Mainly east coast FL. IMHO

 

[4950cycle]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

I don't even post about the ability or inability to ride a gas powered motored bicycle without a drivers license. I have one of those. If you see me posting something on this thread it will be about registration and/or taging it. I know these MBs gave guys with DUIs and such D.L. handycaps hope. So I let the guys with drivers license issues ask and post on that issue. I stay out of that, knock on wood.

 

[SANGESF]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

There is no anti-gas here, just someone who wants the facts about the laws and legislation without "gray areas" or conjecture. There seems to be a lot of people with the "nudge, nudge - wink, wink" / "kill the engine and pedal" attitudes..
Here is just one of the many PMs I get regarding my posts..
(Name not shown to protect the innocent)

Just a nod in your direction on the legal forum for sticking up for what you know and holding off the barking dogs and being civil about it. More civil than they are anyway.

You touched a nerve and exposed the dirty little secret seldom discussed on these boards IE: lost drivers licenses mostly due to DUI. And you're right about the wannabe engine kit sellers too.

Why go through all of that and just find out the facts of the law and follow them or if you don't like them, have them changed.

Simple as that... No "ulterior motive" agenda, no anti gas sentiment. Just a person who wants the facts and documentation to back them up.

For those that have an issue with registration, I have an easy answer... Buy an actual moped and then no problems whatsoever.

 

[SANGESF]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

P.S. I just received the letter on Official, Signed, HSMV Letterhead stating specifically...
Gas motor added to a bicycle is NOT street legal. The only motor allowed is an electric motor that can not be CAPABLE of propelling the bicycle at speeds greater than 20mph.

 

[worksmanFL]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

P.S. I just received the letter on Official, Signed, HSMV Letterhead stating specifically...
Gas motor added to a bicycle is NOT street legal. The only motor allowed is an electric motor that can not be CAPABLE of propelling the bicycle at speeds greater than 20mph.

great, just great....

post it plz i guess.

 

[motorbiker]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

great, just great....

post it plz i guess.

So that is an electric motor. Right ? Just one motor, right ?

How about 2 motors ? Are we allowed 2 motors ?

I think we need to clear this up ! ! !

I'm goin all the way to the top ! ! !

 

[SANGESF]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

great, just great....

post it plz i guess.

I will post it tomorrow, when I have access to a computer to post it (after removing my name and address.)

 

[SANGESF]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

So that is an electric motor. Right ? Just one motor, right ?

How about 2 motors ? Are we allowed 2 motors ?

I think we need to clear this up ! ! !

I'm goin all the way to the top ! ! !

My guess would be each motor, either together and/or separately, would not be capable to propel the bicycle faster than 20mph.

I will send an email to find out.

 

[Fulltimer]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

Oh God.....it still goes on.

Terry

 

[4950cycle]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

Don't totally lose heart, The man SAID/WROTE they (gas motored bicycles) were illegal. Did you notice he didn't send you a statute stating that ! He just wrote it in a letter. Didn't he Sangesf ? And how would they know how fast your elect. MB was ? Only the builder/rider knows that fact. Cops don't ask to ride it when they stop you. And if they were to bust your B**** and ticket you when they caught you going over 20 mph , that is all it is is a ticket. I doubt they hang you ! Then again they have to catch you over 20 mph first.

 

[4950cycle]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

Looks like I will have to break out that old 1977 Puch I have that needs "EVERYTHING" it seems. Even the Puch won't be a breeze to register. I asked about it at the DMV when I was trying to register my MB and it sounded like I will still have to jump thrue plenty of legal hoops and B S red tape to actually accomplish it. FL. The police state has always sucked like this. They just don't want anybody rideing around on anything getting 130 mpg or more. If it were to really catch on just think of how much tax money they would lose. Remember, The Lions share of what you pay for gasoline is TAX ! To register the Puch which has never been registered BTW , I will have to come up with a letter of the piont of origin, Get some munufacturers # or some kind of crap, and the list goes on. You can tell by the way they talk they would rather me not register it.

 

[4950cycle]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

Hey Sangesf, I was just thinking of something. What if I email that guy or gal you have been corrosponding with. I think they just might be breaking my chops at my DMV. Maybe If I had a letter from him/her saying what I need to register my Puch ?

 

[worksmanFL]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

Hi All,
I wanted to do a copy/ paste of the current DMV TL-10 info to have in "public record", just in case anything changes for comparison:

Florida
Department of Highway Safety
and Motor Vehicles
Division of Motor Vehicles
PROCEDURE
TL-10
SUBJECT:
ORIGINAL CERTIFICATE OF TITLE APPLICATIONS
DESCRIPTION AND USE:
THIS PROCEDURE PROVIDES INFORMATION AND INSTRUCTIONS TO ASSIST TAX
COLLECTOR EMPLOYEES, LICENSE PLATE AGENCY EMPLOYEES, AND THE DEPARTMENT
OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES IN ESTABLISHING REQUIREMENTS TO
ENSURE PROPER ISSUANCE OF AN ORIGINAL CERTIFICATE OF TITLE NOT INVOLVING
OPERATIONS OF LAW.
I. PROVISIONS OF LAW:
Section 92.525, Florida Statutes, reads:
1) When it is authorized or required by law, by rule of an administrative agency, or by rule or
order of court that a document be verified by a person, the verification may be accomplished in
the following manner:
(a) Under oath or affirmation taken or administered before an officer authorized under
s. 92.50 to administer oaths; or
(b) By the signing of the written declaration prescribed in subsection (2).
(2) A written declaration means the following statement: "Under penalties of perjury, I declare
that I have read the foregoing [document] and that the facts stated in it are true," followed by the
signature of the person making the declaration, except when a verification on information or
belief is permitted by law, in which case the words "to the best of my knowledge and belief" may
be added. The written declaration shall be printed or typed at the end of or immediately below the
document being verified and above the signature of the person making the declaration.
(3) A person who knowingly makes a false declaration under subsection (2) is guilty of the crime
of perjury by false written declaration, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s.
775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
Revision(s) to this Procedure: Corrected information in Exhibit F, #3.
DIVISION DIRECTOR EFFECTIVE DATE
04/20/11
PAGE #
TL-10-01

EXHIBIT F

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
1. Q. Can a licensed motor vehicle dealer (not licensed as a vessel dealer)
take a vessel in on trade for resale and reassign the title to the new
buyer?
A. A motor vehicle dealer cannot reassign a vessel title to a new buyer.
The dealership would be required to take title in the dealership’s
name prior to selling the vessel. A vehicle dealership is only
licensed to deal in specific items (i.e., vehicles). Therefore, they
cannot sell miscellaneous items such as vessels, even if they take
them in on trade. The dealership must indicate on the form HSMV
82040 that the vessel is in their inventory for resale, so sales tax
would not be due. The registration should be transferred with a
registration use of “non-use,” so the FL number can be transferred
and no base tax charged.
2. Q. Can a vessel dealer (not licensed as a motor vehicle dealer) take a
motor vehicle in on trade for resale and reassign the vehicle title to
the new buyer?
A. A vessel dealer cannot reassign a motor vehicle title to a new buyer.
They must take title in their name prior to selling the vehicle. The
dealership must indicate on the form HSMV 82040 that the vehicle
is in their inventory for resale, so sales tax would not be due.
3. Scenario: A company is advertising on TV a gas engine kit that can be added
to a bicycle. The engine is tied into the pedal system like a Moped
and it has to be pedaled to start the engine. It is advertised that the
bicycle will be propelled to 30MPH.
Q. How is the tax collector supposed to register this bicycle/gas engine
assembly?
A. The definition of bicycle under s. 316.003(2), F.S., includes
motorized bicycles. Bicycles are not registered or titled.
Engine kits for bicycles are not new and there are a variety of
kits available, however, they remain bicycles after the engine
kit is installed. There are other requirements that must be met
to be classified as a motorcycle/scooter/moped such as frame
assembly and safety features. If a customer brings in
paperwork for a bicycle, they cannot be legally issued a title or
registration nor is it required. The agent should also direct the
customer to law enforcement if there are any questions as to
where the motorized bicycle can be used.
TL-10 EXHIBIT G
INFORMATION CO

 

[worksmanFL]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

Hey Sangesf, I was just thinking of something. What if I email that guy or gal you have been corrosponding with. I think they just might be breaking my chops at my DMV. Maybe If I had a letter from him/her saying what I need to register my Puch ?

Hi,

I think you have your moped checklist already - maybe this might help also.

Provide to Tag Office the Following:

a. Year
b. Brand
c. Color
d. VIN
e. cc/ brake HP - (your engine should be no more than 50cc, and 2 brake HP)
f. MCO document- Manufacturers Certificate of Origin
g. there may be more thats required, (ie: Affidavit of ownership?) However, thats a. - e. is all that I needed to get a tag and registered in about 10 minutes

The head of your local tax/ tag offiice should be very helpful. (or maybe google the topic)

I hope this is helpful.

Ride that Thing???

 

[4950cycle]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

Lou, Where do I get an MCO (manufacturers certificate of origin) for an old 1977 Puch moped thats never been registered ? Please, please say there is something I can do to make that problem go away !

 

[SANGESF]

Re: FL Gas MB Registration NOT Required as of 04/20/2011

great, just great....

post it plz i guess.

Here it is in image format..
(my name and address were whited out)

P.S. They banned me from another site because I posted this...
Go figure!