what kind of metals can i

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K

kicking

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Apr 11, 2010
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i want to build different types frames ... what kind of metals can i braze ? aluminum tubing galvanized stainless ect ?
is brazing rods that are coated with flux enough or will i need extra flux ?
 
2door

2door

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Sep 15, 2008
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Unless you get/have lots of experience stay away from aluminum. Welding it takes skill and experience not to mention specialized equipment.
That being said I'll suggest you stick with good old steel. As for sticking it together I'll also suggest you buy and get good with a nice little wire feed (MIG) welder. Brazing with an oxy/acetylene torch will work but being proficient at it takes practice and the right materials and again, equipment. The MIG welder can be mastered quickly with practice and will give you strong/safe welds. Before you start building bicycle frames I'd suggest you do some reading on basic metal working. There's more to it than simply cutting and welding things together. You'll probably get several opposing opinions on this; mine is just one.
Tom
 
K

kicking

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Apr 11, 2010
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Re: thank you i talked to a welder here an....

thank you i talked to a welder here and he said>>>>> (absolutly do not weld or braze galvanized , it will kill ya <<<<<< ) i am going to work with him a while when he has time , he is between jobs right now // but i bought the Welding rods and he has me doing dots and puddles he has me doing # 6013stick and setting the apms Amp = 1/8 = .125 = 125 amp .. i am hopeing he will be able to turn me loose this sunday runing a bead .... latter thank you!!
2door said:
Unless you get/have lots of experience stay away from aluminum. Welding it takes skill and experience not to mention specialized equipment.
That being said I'll suggest you stick with good old steel. As for sticking it together I'll also suggest you buy and get good with a nice little wire feed (MIG) welder. Brazing with an oxy/acetylene torch will work but being proficient at it takes practice and the right materials and again, equipment. The MIG welder can be mastered quickly with practice and will give you strong/safe welds. Before you start building bicycle frames I'd suggest you do some reading on basic metal working. There's more to it than simply cutting and welding things together. You'll probably get several opposing opinions on this; mine is just one.
Tom
Click to expand...
 
tyrslider

tyrslider

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Sep 26, 2008
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GLO 2 Door!

So many red flags!

GLO kicking!

You'll learn what you want so much faster (and likely better) by having a mentor. It seems that you've a lot to learn to be capable of the creativity your talking about; by tapping anothers experience you'll likely avoid a lot of potentially dangerous "HardKnocks" schooling too! Look forward to seeing your work!
 
wheelbender6

wheelbender6

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Sep 4, 2008
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Tensile steel absorbs the motor vibration well and should be far easier to weld than aluminum or thin wall chromemoly steel. Some of the mainstream bicycle forums have a lot of info on frame building. The freakbike forum members do a lot of cutting and welding on tensile steel frames. Read before you cut.
 
K

kicking

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Re: i have an pull cart ( proto type )

Re: i have an pull cart ( proto type ) made of pvc pipe .,, so this guy will know what im talking about it dont look bad.. im selling wood goods come monday.. im not in welding to make money right now .. it just seems a good thing to be able to repair things made of steel / i think composite is the way to do if you can but its even more $$$$$$$ /// this is the stuff i master >>>>> BITY Mold Supply - Mold Making, Mold Rubber and Casting Resins | Home i want to do this >>>> YouTube - Metal Casting at Home Part 10 Another Day in my Home Foundry hey , i like that four stroke you got ,, looks like it may hang with ya ! im old and need a trike now .. im going electric soon i hope .. i am unemployed right now . oh well ... i love my bicycle and as charlton heston would say .. they will take my bike from my cold dead feet !!!!! lol
tyrslider said:
GLO 2 Door!

So many red flags!

GLO kicking!

You'll learn what you want so much faster (and likely better) by having a mentor. It seems that you've a lot to learn to be capable of the creativity your talking about; by tapping anothers experience you'll likely avoid a lot of potentially dangerous "HardKnocks" schooling too! Look forward to seeing your work!
Click to expand...
 
K

kicking

New Member
Apr 11, 2010
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Re : i think this is a worthy post because

i think this is a worthy post because of a great need of any knowlege to patch or repair a frame ./// heck / mighty putty may get you home some day .....
wheelbender6 said:
Tensile steel absorbs the motor vibration well and should be far easier to weld than aluminum or thin wall chromemoly steel. Some of the mainstream bicycle forums have a lot of info on frame building. The freakbike forum members do a lot of cutting and welding on tensile steel frames. Read before you cut.
Click to expand...
 
M

meowy84

Member
Jul 18, 2009
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Canada
Here's another thing to consider if you do end up using steel as a material for your frames. I'm still on my first bike build using a regular V-triangle frame but I've been contemplating boing a custom frame build myself for my next project (funny that I'm already planning my second build before my first one is completeed, I dunno if any of you guys are like that too LOL) so I called a very reputable local bike shop that dabbles in this kind of stuff since I don't yet trust my welds. The bike shop owner also said that I might want to consider what frames I'm using since all steel frame tubing material is not the same and there might be some compaibility issues wih different steels when it comes to welding. Some frames use chro-moly tubing, other, cheaper frames use other grades of steel. I have an old Fuji MTB frame and the guy said that Fuju uses their own grade steel unique to them whereas my Raleigh frame uses more common chrome-moly tubing, etc. Dunno if this is all true or not, just relaying what I was told. Maybe someone else with more materials knowleedge can chime in on this and clear things up.
 
tyrslider

tyrslider

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Sep 26, 2008
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2 Door, Sorry, I actually don't really text and just make the stuff up; kind o' foolish to think that people will know what I'm talkin about (I suck at typing ironically and that's why I abreviate).

GLO=Good Lookin' Out

I'm no welder (dabble a little) and not a metalurgist (unless you count back yard heat treat and stove top tempering). However I do have first hand knowledge of many material characteristics through my experience machining and fabricating from composites to metals to plastics.

I used to know a bit more about the brands and their metal choices. Much of the chromoly frames are 4130. Most of the frames will say if they have their original labeling.

Aluminum frames and chromoly frames are heat treated and welding will upset that normalization. Brazing is better but will still affect the heat treat. Best practice is to re heat treat after welding. Not always necessary but good to know when and why (if not just knowing that if it fails it won't be catastrophic).

Mild steel frames are not heat treated and thus can be welded on more reliably and easilly!

Evan
 
4

42blue15

New Member
Sep 18, 2008
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St Louis metro, USA
Assuming you can get a welder to do it, the easiest way to make a good frame is to braze steel tubing. Steel tubing is easy to braze or weld, but welding thin-wall tubing tends to burn off some of the wall thickness opposite the welds, so brazing usually ends up being stronger.

Aluminum can be welded and brazed (with Durafix rod) but it is much more difficult than steel, because of the way that heat spreads out quickly in aluminum. Also some people have found that aluminum brazing rod does not hold well if it gets flexed at all.

Galvanized steel is never good for structural metal use for two reasons. First reason is that the zinc coating burning off while you are welding it is a health hazard, and second is that the chemical bath necessary to apply zinc coatings weakens the surface of the metal. So no good-quality steels are ever normally zinc-plated. Electrical conduit is steel, but it's a very low-grade soft steel.

In the US the main two metals to look for are 4130 cro-moly steel and 6061-T6 aluminum. Mild steel can also be used, but it is not quite as stiff and resilient as 4130 steel would be.

Anything else is either too weak (cast iron pipe) or a lot more expensive (stainless steel, titanium, ect). ....And aside from simply costing a small fortune, stainless steel and titanium are also very difficult to cut, drill and weld properly.
~
 
K

kicking

New Member
Apr 11, 2010
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my closing thoughts and comments on frame repair we

my closing thoughts and comments on frame repair welding and composites and I am sure there are others / is as follows . Welding is dangerous , a live mentor is a must for a green horn like me , to have the knowledge of how to forge steel as an need to is a great idea .. My thought is this , I knew an old man when I was young that had an old 1946 ford tractor that ran until he died at the age of 79 , (he forged his own parts) where else can you get parts right ? and he loved his tractor like a child he could never have .. If yall see fit to keep this post going I will be here when I can. We have a lot of bad weather here in Mississippi tornados and such .. One thing is back when old leaman lived , pennies where made of copper not zinc .. Now saying that .what you have in your hand may not steel or is it coated or well get the picture ?ugggg sigh Sometimes stumps the best // later
42blue15 said:
Assuming you can get a welder to do it, the easiest way to make a good frame is to braze steel tubing. Steel tubing is easy to braze or weld, but welding thin-wall tubing tends to burn off some of the wall thickness opposite the welds, so brazing usually ends up being stronger.

Aluminum can be welded and brazed (with Durafix rod) but it is much more difficult than steel, because of the way that heat spreads out quickly in aluminum. Also some people have found that aluminum brazing rod does not hold well if it gets flexed at all.

Galvanized steel is never good for structural metal use for two reasons. First reason is that the zinc coating burning off while you are welding it is a health hazard, and second is that the chemical bath necessary to apply zinc coatings weakens the surface of the metal. So no good-quality steels are ever normally zinc-plated. Electrical conduit is steel, but it's a very low-grade soft steel.

In the US the main two metals to look for are 4130 cro-moly steel and 6061-T6 aluminum. Mild steel can also be used, but it is not quite as stiff and resilient as 4130 steel would be.

Anything else is either too weak (cast iron pipe) or a lot more expensive (stainless steel, titanium, ect). ....And aside from simply costing a small fortune, stainless steel and titanium are also very difficult to cut, drill and weld properly.
~
Click to expand...
 
tyrslider

tyrslider

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Sep 26, 2008
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Good info here! Well put guys! At my "side" job I make lots of different types of things using many manufacturing processes and find that I easilly adapt to new (to me) processes. I believe that if you properly assess your skills and use a common sense approach to things i.e. do what you need to get proper info and tackle things in small, at first, bites you can work up to whatever you want!

Crappy Mallwart bicis are a good place to start, They should be procured for free (at all costs) and they're disposable/recycleable so you can practice on those till you hone your craft.

(Anecdotal Humor Interlude) I purged my bicycle grave yard of riff raff and stuff I won't have time for before it returns to the earth. Built a pile in my plantingstrip; the Jackson Pollick (sp.) Huffy cruiser left mysteriously while I was building the pile. Threw up the free ad on c'list. The rusty unicycle (w/stand, also rusty) made it till the 1st dude in an aircooled VW showed up (lime green). I was showing him the fixie potentials when the second dude in an a/c V DuB (MiddleSchool bathroom yellow) Showed up w/ tools looking for very specific lower mid grade parts. And literally 5 min. later (30 min after posting the ad) another dude (not in a VW) shows up and takes a bunch of stuff and buys some rims while the other dudes forage. I tell'em to take the good and leave the (s)crap and head back to the grind stone. I come back by my front window 10 min later and notice a van pull up and 2 guys take everything else (they missed a chain and kickstand but mistakenly took some yard waste) for scrap.

It was like the food chain of used bicycle parts! I thought I was going to run to the transfer station; not this time!

True recycling!

Cheers!
 
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T

turtle tedd

Member
Jul 18, 2009
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Oxt-,Acetylene weiding of aluminum is not a good idea...Flux Core Mig Welding without gas of any metal is not a good idea..accept these two statements as basic truth or ride the stuff you weld knowing you will have weld failure and probably get hurt or worse..But if you are young and tough and dont smash your head you will recover....everybody's a welder!!
 
4

42blue15

New Member
Sep 18, 2008
136
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St Louis metro, USA
turtle tedd said:
Oxt-,Acetylene weiding of aluminum is not a good idea...
Click to expand...
Well, no.
Oxy-acet-welding aluminum works very well, provided you have the right supplies and equipment.
And a lot of practice.....
A TINY torch works much better than a regular size setup, and you need the right filler rod and flux.
http://www.tinmantech.com/ sells both.

That said, it is more difficult than playing with steel. Tinman makes it look easy.
Steel wants to stick together.
Aluminum wants to stay separate, or melt into a puddle on the ground. There's a very small moment in time in-between those two, where (if you have the right rod and flux there) it will stick together. And stay stick-ed together.

Flux Core Mig Welding without gas of any metal is not a good idea..
Click to expand...
This I will agree completely on.
People buy these electric welders because they don't want to need any gas cylinders, they think they can just plug the electric into the wall socket and go,,,,,,, and you can,,,,,, but the welds you get look terrible. If you buy a MIG, get one that can run gas, and go buy a tank of argon at least once--so you will see how good it's supposed to work.
~
 
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K

kicking

New Member
Apr 11, 2010
403
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mississippi
exactly old frames for practice

exactly old frames for practice and are geting hard to find like hens teeth ,, i make proto types a lot of times , out of pvc pipe , and dont glue them so as for referance and measurments.. i had to get an electronic tape measure so i could see lol cost $$$$ , im think when it comes to this bicycle work stuff its all metal and that to me is a ((great need to use a metric ruler ? ))
meowy84 said:
Here's another thing to consider if you do end up using steel as a material for your frames. I'm still on my first bike build using a regular V-triangle frame but I've been contemplating boing a custom frame build myself for my next project (funny that I'm already planning my second build before my first one is completeed, I dunno if any of you guys are like that too LOL) so I called a very reputable local bike shop that dabbles in this kind of stuff since I don't yet trust my welds. The bike shop owner also said that I might want to consider what frames I'm using since all steel frame tubing material is not the same and there might be some compaibility issues wih different steels when it comes to welding. Some frames use chro-moly tubing, other, cheaper frames use other grades of steel. I have an old Fuji MTB frame and the guy said that Fuju uses their own grade steel unique to them whereas my Raleigh frame uses more common chrome-moly tubing, etc. Dunno if this is all true or not, just relaying what I was told. Maybe someone else with more materials knowleedge can chime in on this and clear things up.
Click to expand...
 
K

kicking

New Member
Apr 11, 2010
403
0
0
mississippi
im moveing yall come if you want

http://motorbicycling.com/f39/casting-metals-16550-5.html#post175617 latter
kicking said:
exactly old frames for practice and are geting hard to find like hens teeth ,, i make proto types a lot of times , out of pvc pipe , and dont glue them so as for referance and measurments.. i had to get an electronic tape measure so i could see lol cost $$$$ , im think when it comes to this bicycle work stuff its all metal and that to me is a ((great need to use a metric ruler ? ))
Click to expand...
 
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