Vintage fender repair...how to?

[silverbear]

Pictured below are a couple of battered up gothic fenders from a 1940 Elgin, to be mounted on a 1939 Elgin. I know, they look pretty rough and are going to be a challenge. In both pictures you can see where the metal is fatigued and needs to be repaired. Especially considering they are going to be subjected to the rigors of a HT engine vibrations, I want to be sure they are sound. These fenders are heavy, with good metal in them, but they are old and have been abused. My question is in how to fix them. I don't weld and that kind of seems like overkill anyway. I am pretty good at soldering, with much experience joining copper pipe (ran a resort with lots of plumbing work) and soldering lead (had a stained glass shop at one time), but that is it. I did manage a couple of throttle cable modifications with silver solder, my only experience with silver. I was thinking to first clean up the fenders by stripping them, which has to be done anyway. The repair areas would be subjected to the wire wheel and thoroughly cleaned down to bare metal. I would use my propane torch at fairly low heat, silver solder flux the repair spots and apply silver solder, with just enough heat that it flows into the fender and is not just sitting there in a blob on top. Am I on the right track? Will this make a good repair or am I wasting my time? Is there a better way to do this? Is silver solder necessary or could I use a less expensive solder. I'm spending a lot of time and effort on this old bike and want to do this part of it right. While I want it to look good, I'm more concerned with it being sound and riding safely. I'd like to think this classy old bike is going to be around for a very long time. I now have the frame stripped to bare metal and am beginning on the fenders, fender skirts and chain guard. Thanks for any suggestions.
Silverbear

 

[Bikeguy Joe]

I would say only welding will safely repair that. You may try several layers of fiberglass or other structural cloth, but I am thinking it will need to be welded.

 

[camlifter]

solder or in this case brazing, only works if the pieces over lap, that fix would be a butt joint and needs to be welded, plus to get them smoothed out and looking nice your going to need a planishing hammer and english wheel, would be a lot of work when you could probably find a used set or repops pretty cheap.

 

[silverbear]

Thanks for the input. I think I'm going to try to use them anyway, I'll experiment with one fender. What about if I were to beef up those spots with a layer of steel fender scrap underneath and bolt or rivet the two layers together... solder from above and then use a dremel tool to make the openings the same... or take them to a welder. Those couple of spots shouldn't take much time, effort of money. I think those fenders would be hard to replace and I face the same task with the chain guard and fender skirts which can not be replaced with reproductions. Original parts in pristine condition are way beyond my budget. Poor in cash I am, but rich in time and determination. Since these parts will all be painted, I can also do some cosmetic fixing with epoxy. I have a whole winter ahead of me with lots of time to kill hobbying. I did some fairly successful fender work on some old Schwinn middleweights, removing dents with a rubber hammer sanded down to the shape of the inner fender. I would hold that in place with the fender resting on foam cushioned wood and then give it a whack with another rubber mallet.
As far as the metal repair it sounds like I should have it welded professionally. Thank you guys!
SB

 

[camlifter]

using body filler you coud just patch some tin in there with rivets and bondo it up. but welding them up and rolling them out till they looked like new again would be a ton of work.

 

[Rockenstein]

Silverbear if you have a propane torch you have enough heat to silver braze or even brass braze some patches on the under side of the fatigued areas. I wouldn't soft solder the patches, might hold but it might not too...silver or brass braze would though I'm very sure. After patching from the under side use some soft lead plumbing solder on the top side to fill in any rough spots since soft solder is easy enough to sand smooth. Soft solder's low melting temp won't bother the brazing work on the under side either. A trick to make sure your braze flows well under the patches is to drill a few holes in them then dab your brazing rod in the holes as you go. Use lots of flux!!

 

[Kevlarr]

You can massage the dents out with a ball peen hammer against a bag of sand, take your time and remember that a light hand is best. Get them close then use body filler to smooth them out.

As far as the cracks, you don't want to weld. I had a heck of a time with mine, even with my 110v wirefeed on the lowest setting I still was blowing holes.

Make some patches to go inside to bridge the cracks and either silver solder or even better brass braze the patches in but for brass you'll need a lot hotter of a torch.

For the mounting tab just make a matching piece, have it go about an inch beyond the crack and braze it on the inside of the fender.

 

[silverbear]

Rockenstein & Kevlarr,
Thanks for the great ideas which are also within my reach. I was thinking to use the front end of another rear fender to get a matching tab for a patch. I'll use the mangled fender from the 1940 Schwinn for tab and patches as it is good metal. The advice also matches up with my budget, too. Perfect. And thanks for the tip on addressing the dents on the the fenders which will also apply to the chain guard and skirts. I never did have aspirations for a 'restoration' so that I could have a perfect piece of memorabilia to sit around and look at. This is going to be a motorbicycle to use, a rider which I hope suggests another time when things were simpler, slower and made to last. I want to fit a pull start automatic HT on it as a kind of comfort step through cruiser for elders. For somebody like me, for example. Or I'll do as originally planned and sell it to a geezer with money. Under the yellow paint was a kind of beige with dark brown trim. If I went with those colors I'd redo the seat in brown elk hide and do a covered behind the seat gas tank and grips in matching leather. I think that would be a nice look. It's fun while all is dents and rust and missing pieces to project into the future and see it as it will be. While I was stripping the frame I was wondering who it was bought for back in 1939. Being a guy, I of course wondered if she was good looking, a pretty young woman with long hair, a teenager, probably. Was it Christmas? A birthday? It made somebody happy and will again in it's new and more robust incarnation. Old bikes are time machines of a sort, don't you think? Thanks again.
SB

 

[Rockenstein]

Old bikes are time machines of a sort, don't you think?

Yes they most definitely are...I look at my junkers and wonder who rode them, where they have been or what they have seen. When I was restoring my 1942 Logan 10 x 24 lathe I would often stop for a moment to check my progress only to find myself pondering what parts had been turned with it throughout the 60 some odd years of it's life. I wondered too if any of the craftsmen that had used it would still be around today. I as well wonder if in 60 years when I'm no longer around if some young craftsman or antique machinery aficionado might stop and wonder the same while making a part...I've stamped my initials and the restoration date on a bearing holder in the headstock.

 

[silverbear]

Not being Canadian, I have no stake in this debate, but I can see merit in both sides of the issue. It is of interest to me because I think we share the same problem here in the states. I don't see interest waning in these motorized bicycles; it is on the increase, so whether we want to stay under the radar or not a time will come when we can't. My hope is that when that day comes that the powers that be feel the need to do something or other about all those crazy motorbicycles out there, that there will be sensible regulation rather than outright banning of their use on public roads. We'll get either regulation or we'll be outlaws. Outlaw has a nice romantic ring to it, but I have no desire to be hassled by the police ( and Aaniimoosh The Wonder Dog does not want to be arrested by a police dog, either). So when the time comes I will welcome sensible regulation. I think having motorbicycles abide by motor vehicle laws (at least some of them) makes sense. We don't need drunken motorbike riders on the road any more than drunk drivers in cars or trucks. Wreckless driving is wreckless driving and should be discouraged by fine if need be. I don't know how the age thing would be addressed. I would hope that younger riders would be able to ride legally. Maybe someday there will be a little safety training and a test. Helmets mandatory on public roadways is OK with me, just like seat belt laws. Requiring lights for night riding on public roadways makes perfectly good sense. I also wouldn't mind an inspection process if it was sensible and aimed at safety. There are some bikes which are so poorly put together or maintained that if it is obvious they are a liability, then a citation requiring something fixed or improved is again in the interest of the rider and the public. I don't have a problem with a cop stopping me in my truck for a tail light out or non functioning brake lights and requiring they be fixed. If that's what it takes to keep riding my motorbicycle then OK, better than putting the bike away forever or sneaking around all the while risking having my bike impounded. It will come eventually, some kind of action by our governmental bodies, public busy bodies if you will, they will speak and we will have to listen. If there is a way to influence attitudes ahead of time, that's good. Every one of us who keeps to the side of the road, drives within the limits of the road, comes to at least a rolling stop at intersections, uses hand signals when appropriate, wears a helmet and shows consideration for others sharing the road, even when some of them do not return the favor... each of us is having a positive influence and is helping to insure our longevity in this business of motorbicycling. Beyond that, I don't know. I do know that all the talk of how fast can I go is less helpful than how green I go, how inexpensively I go, how I ride with so much pure pleasure. I go out of my way to be friendly even with those who don't notice, don't care or are not from this planet. I think every little bit each of us does on the positive side helps. Every goofball who pisses off drivers with reckless abandon of the rules of the road hurts all of us. If we want to be legal, and recognized as responsible adults who should have a right to build and ride these motorbicycles then we have to behave that way. I understand the desire to remain in the shadows, but the light is getting brighter all the time with fewer shadow to hide in. We really do need to have a srtategy for the future which will come, as it always does.
SB

 

[Kevlarr]

Wrong thread silverbear? lol

 

[silverbear]

Not being Canadian, I have no stake in this debate, but I can see merit in both sides of the issue. It is of interest to me because I think we share the same problem here in the states. I don't see interest waning in these motorized bicycles; it is on the increase, so whether we want to stay under the radar or not a time will come when we can't. My hope is that when that day comes that the powers that be feel the need to do something or other about all those crazy motorbicycles out there, that there will be sensible regulation rather than outright banning of their use on public roads. We'll get either regulation or we'll be outlaws. Outlaw has a nice romantic ring to it, but I have no desire to be hassled by the police ( and Aaniimoosh The Wonder Dog does not want to be arrested by a police dog, either). So when the time comes I will welcome sensible regulation. I think having motorbicycles abide by motor vehicle laws (at least some of them) makes sense. We don't need drunken motorbike riders on the road any more than drunk drivers in cars or trucks. Wreckless driving is wreckless driving and should be discouraged by fine if need be. I don't know how the age thing would be addressed. I would hope that younger riders would be able to ride legally. Maybe someday there will be a little safety training and a test. Helmets mandatory on public roadways is OK with me, just like seat belt laws. Requiring lights for night riding on public roadways makes perfectly good sense. I also wouldn't mind an inspection process if it was sensible and aimed at safety. There are some bikes which are so poorly put together or maintained that if it is obvious they are a liability, then a citation requiring something fixed or improved is again in the interest of the rider and the public. I don't have a problem with a cop stopping me in my truck for a tail light out or non functioning brake lights and requiring they be fixed. If that's what it takes to keep riding my motorbicycle then OK, better than putting the bike away forever or sneaking around all the while risking having my bike impounded. It will come eventually, some kind of action by our governmental bodies, public busy bodies if you will, they will speak and we will have to listen. If there is a way to influence attitudes ahead of time, that's good. Every one of us who keeps to the side of the road, drives within the limits of the road, comes to at least a rolling stop at intersections, uses hand signals when appropriate, wears a helmet and shows consideration for others sharing the road, even when some of them do not return the favor... each of us is having a positive influence and is helping to insure our longevity in this business of motorbicycling. Beyond that, I don't know. I do know that all the talk of how fast can I go is less helpful than how green I go, how inexpensively I go, how I ride with so much pure pleasure. I go out of my way to be friendly even with those who don't notice, don't care or are not from this planet. I think every little bit each of us does on the positive side helps. Every goofball who pisses off drivers with reckless abandon of the rules of the road hurts all of us. If we want to be legal, and recognized as responsible adults who should have a right to build and ride these motorbicycles then we have to behave that way. I understand the desire to remain in the shadows, but the light is getting brighter all the time with fewer shadow to hide in. We really do need to have a srtategy for the future which will come, as it always does.
SB

Oops, that post was supposed to by under the thread for the Ontario Rally. Guess I had you wondering, eh? It is an interesting thread, to me at least. This part of it is a debate about whether it is better to be upfront about this sport/activity or to be as inconspicuous as possible for as long as possible.
SB

 

[mpr455]

Oops, that post was supposed to by under the thread for the Ontario Rally. Guess I had you wondering, eh? It is an interesting thread, to me at least. This part of it is a debate about whether it is better to be upfront about this sport/activity or to be as inconspicuous as possible for as long as possible.
SB

silverbear, back to the fender repair. you might want to try gas welding with mapp and oxygen. use a brazing rod or a lot of guys use a coat hanger for rod. it takes a little practice weld a section about an inch at a time and hammer the weld while it is still hot then quench with water to keep the heat out of the rest of the fender. you can grind this with a 24 grit flap wheel. if your good with a hammer and dolly you won't need any filler just a couple of heavy coats of high build primer and some block sanding. let us know on your progress. i would rather see a nice restored original piece rather than buying a repop-big mike

 

[silverbear]

silverbear, back to the fender repair. you might want to try gas welding with mapp and oxygen. use a brazing rod or a lot of guys use a coat hanger for rod. it takes a little practice weld a section about an inch at a time and hammer the weld while it is still hot then quench with water to keep the heat out of the rest of the fender. you can grind this with a 24 grit flap wheel. if your good with a hammer and dolly you won't need any filler just a couple of heavy coats of high build primer and some block sanding. let us know on your progress. i would rather see a nice restored original piece rather than buying a repop-big mike

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "Mapp" and what equipment is required to do this kind of welding? I did a little bit of oxy acetylene welding thirty years ago and was not very good at it. I could cut like nobody's business, though. I did the cutting and my brother did the welding. I always was better at taking things apart than putting them back together...
Thanks for the encouragement. I think I can make the old fenders look pretty good again. It doesn't have to be perfect to look good. I also like the idea of fixing up the original as a kind of respect to the bike, I guess. Also, I have to admit that expense is a very real consideration. I have more time than money and take special pleasure in fixing something that others think is trash... like say a dented old fender. I've got a few dents and lumpy spots myself, you know. No rust yet, but I keep looking.
SB

 

[mpr455]

silverbear, i'am refering to mapp gas which is like propane but it burns hotter. sears has a small torch set that uses mapp gas and oxygen. so basically you are gas welding but this torch is small so it is a little harder to make a total mess out of your fender. that torch set was about 30-40 bucks if i remember. good luck-big mike

 

[Kevlarr]

Mapp is the gas in the yellow bottle.