USA Nation Wide Poll

[happyvalley]

Word of caution: an organization starts off to represent the average enthusiast and ends up being taken over by money interests, whomever and whatever they might be, IE; importers, retailers, dealers, perhaps even some manufacturers, etc etc fill-in-the-blank to forward there for-profit agendas, and it won't necessarily be overt or up front, could be just some guy here and there gets on the board or committee or whatever the organizational totem pole ends up being...... perhaps even offering hard to find organizational funding.

 

[Fulltimer]

Just waiting to hear back something. Of course Monday is a holiday!

Terry

 

[Fulltimer]

If this idea does get off the ground it will be an interesting adventure to say the least. I started a chapter of the Disabled American Veterans and one for Veterans of the Vietnam War and helped others form chapters too. But starting a national organization would be much different. Then add in that we are scattered all over would create its own problems.

I think if it were to be successful it would have to be formed where there are a fairly good sized group of members close together. That way they could have BS sessions to work out details. I'm sure someone on here has a good contact in the legal profession. Even a paralegal would be good. Papers would have to be drawn up for incorporation. That is pretty straight forward work for a paralegal. Lots of details.

Terry

 

[Fulltimer]

 

[Fulltimer]

I already posted this somewhere else but here is the reply I got back.

Terry

Dear Mr. McGee:



Thank you for using the “Contact Us” feature at American Motorcyclist Association to inquire about assistance in forming a national organization for motorized bicyclists.



Perhaps the first issue to address is the cause of the police action against those riding motorized bicycles in Florida. What are the police issuing citations for – equipment violations, licensing and/or registration, and/or moving violations? Why are the citations being dismissed in court?



Florida Statutes (see Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine) contain numerous references to “motorized bicycles” (316.003 (2)) and “mopeds” (316.003 (77)) – is there an issue with home-built units not conforming to the definition, particularly with regard to the engine/motor type or size?



From the Florida Statutes, 316.003:

(2) Bicycle. --Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.



(77) Moped. --Any vehicle with pedals to permit propulsion by human power, having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels; with a motor rated not in excess of 2 brake horsepower and not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground; and with a power-drive system that functions directly or automatically without clutching or shifting gears by the operator after the drive system is engaged. If an internal combustion engine is used, the displacement may not exceed 50 cubic centimeters.



Forming a national organization to address motorized bicycle issues is an admirable goal, if the members of the forum are willing to do what it takes to make the organization successful.



My first suggestion is a thorough search for any existing organizations, be they local, state, national or foreign, which work on motorized bicycle issues already. Don’t ignore overseas groups, as they may have already dealt with issues you are interested in.



Whether or not you locate any such groups or organizations, you and the other forum members should compile a (short) list of the issues you’d like to take on in Florida. You mentioned changing Florida law – what area(s) do you have in mind? I’d suggest not taking on too much to start with – focus on the most pressing issue. If it’s equipment related, you need to research all applicable state statutes and federal regulations with regard to vehicles used on public roadways. You may find there are vehicle standards that must be met at the state and/or federal level for motorized bicycles that you can’t achieve.



If the central issue is licensing and/or registration, you’ll find it/them to be strictly a state issue. Compare Florida’s requirements to other states and try to locate the differences that work in your favor.



I’m not sure there is a single reference I can point you to regarding the actual “how to’s” of forming a national organization. Most national groups, such as the AMA and the League of American Bicyclists (LAB; see League of American Bicyclists * Home), draw their strength and membership from individuals and local- and state-wide groups of dedicated riders.



If you provide more background on the reasons for and types of citations you mentioned, I’ll try to assist you further with suggestions.



Thanks again for contacting us.



Sincerely,



Mr. Imre F. Szauter

Government Affairs Manager

American Motorcyclist Association

13515 Yarmouth Drive

Pickerington, OH 43147-8214

 

[2door]

What a great response from that gentleman.
It certainly gives us some things to consider. Thanks for your continuing efforts, Terry.
Tom

 

[Fulltimer]

I received this mail today.

Terry

From: Imre Szauter <[email protected]> [Edit Address Book]
To: Terry & Kay McGee <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Some Follow Up Information
Date: Sep 9, 2011 1:16 PM
Attachments: FL Statutes 316.003 Definitions.pdf FL Statutes 322.01 Definitions.pdf

Dear Terry:



Thanks for your follow-up message and a copy of the information you received from the Florida Department of HS&MV.



I’ve attached two sections from the Florida statutes where definitions are provided.



Reviewing the statutes provides a better understanding of the conflict between what the police claim in their enforcement action and what the courts have done with the citations.



Please keep in mind I am not an attorney, so I can’t provide legal advice or assistance, but I can interpret the sections of the statutes that I believe are central to this issue.



From Section 316.003:



(2) BICYCLE.—Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.



(21) MOTOR VEHICLE.—Any self-propelled vehicle not operated upon rails or guideway, but not including any bicycle, motorized scooter, electric personal assistive mobility device, or moped.



(22) MOTORCYCLE.—Any motor vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, but excluding a tractor or a moped.



(77) MOPED.—Any vehicle with pedals to permit propulsion by human power, having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels; with a motor rated not in excess of 2 brake horsepower and not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground; and with a power-drive system that functions directly or automatically without clutching or shifting gears by the operator after the drive system is engaged. If an internal combustion engine is used, the displacement may not exceed 50 cubic centimeters.



(82) MOTORIZED SCOOTER.—Any vehicle not having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider, designed to travel on not more than three wheels, and not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground.



From Section 322.01:



(26) “Motorcycle” means a motor vehicle powered by a motor with a displacement of more than 50 cubic centimeters, having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider, and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, but excluding a tractor, tri-vehicle, or moped.



(27) “Motor vehicle” means any self-propelled vehicle, including a motor vehicle combination, not operated upon rails or guideway, excluding vehicles moved solely by human power, motorized wheelchairs, and motorized bicycles as defined in s. 316.003.

-------



From 322.01(27), a motorized bicycle is NOT considered a “motor vehicle” in Florida.



From 316.003(2), a motorized bicycle is “… propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, …”



Therefore, it can be argued that bicycles equipped with gasoline motors are NOT considered motorized bicycles, per 316.003(2). This section clearly indicates “electric helper motor” as the supplemental propulsion device.



So, if bicycles with gasoline helper motors are not classified as “bicycles,” what are they?



Are they considered “mopeds”? The definition of a moped (from 316.003(77)) reads “… with pedals to permit propulsion by human power, having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels; with a motor rated not in excess of 2 brake horsepower and not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground; and with a power-drive system that functions directly or automatically without clutching or shifting gears by the operator after the drive system is engaged. If an internal combustion engine is used, the displacement may not exceed 50 cubic centimeters.”



Strictly speaking, a bicycle with a 50 cc or smaller gasoline motor MAY be classified as a moped, because it meets all the criteria in the statute:

“… pedals to permit propulsion by human power, …”? – check.

“… having a seat or saddle …”? – check.

“… designed to travel on not more than three wheels; …”? – check

“… motor rated not in excess of 2 brake horsepower …”? – perhaps

“… greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground; …” – perhaps

“… with a power-drive system that functions directly or automatically without clutching or shifting gears by the operator after the drive system is engaged.” – probably



So if the bicycle with a 50 cc or smaller gasoline motor is classified as a moped, what are the rules in Florida that apply to mopeds? Here’s a URL to an explanation: Florida moped laws. I can’t vouch for the explanation, I’m only providing it as a possible source for your consideration.



The article you referred me to makes things even muddier:



“Capt. Mark Welch, chief of public affairs for the Florida Highway Patrol, said the gas-powered bicycles are considered motor vehicles in the state statutes and that all motor vehicles must be registered with the state to be driven in Florida. Because bicycles can’t be registered, bicycles with gas-powered helper motors are illegal to drive.”



So, if gas-powered bicycles are motor vehicles, are they considered motorcycles? If that’s the police chief’s interpretation, then a completely new set of rules apply. If they are not motorcycles, are they mopeds? Again, another set of rules apply.



Depending on the willingness of the forum members to get involved, you might consider the following options:

1. Sharing the message you received from the Florida Department of HS&MV with both Sgt. Mark Raiche with the Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office’s traffic division and Capt. Mark Welch, chief of public affairs for the Florida Highway Patrol (both mentioned in the article) for their review and comments. Depending on their responses, you might consider requesting a meeting with them to resolve any difference in interpretation of the law.

2. Contact your state representative and/or senator with an explanation of the problem and one or more potential solutions. For example, you might consider asking that the definition of a bicycle in 316.003(2) be expanded to include “gasoline-powered helper motors”; in other words, the definition could be amended to read:

(2) BICYCLE.—Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and a gasoline or an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.

3. Contact the court where a majority of the issued citations are referred to see if they can offer any explanation and/or assistance. The court may have a clerk or referee who can provide information and/or help. If citations are routinely dismissed, there may be disconnect between the way the police and the court interpret the statutes. Resolving such a disconnect might result in fewer citations; on the other hand, if the court decides the other way, more of the citations may result in a conviction.



There are certainly other options available, but I’d suggest focusing on one that you and other forum members believe would yield the best results.



Sincerely,



Mr. Imre F. Szauter

Government Affairs Manager

American Motorcyclist Association

13515 Yarmouth Drive

Pickerington, OH 43147-8214

1 (800) AMA-JOIN

1 (614) 856-1900, ext. 1125

 

[Fulltimer]

I think this is the section that is the wedge between the police departments and the courts: From 322.01(27), a motorized bicycle is NOT considered a “motor vehicle” in Florida.

I have sent an email to the county commissioners of the county where Arnette lives. (I don't remember the county name!) The county sheriff's department is under the commissioners. I sent them the following:

rom: FHP <[email protected]> [Add to Address Book]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Gas Engine Assisted Bicycle
Date: Apr 6, 2011 3:54 PM

Dear Terry,



Thank you for your recent inquiry. Here is some information for your review:



Mopeds, scooters and other two or three wheel motor vehicles that are 50 cc or less are not motorcycles by legal definition, so a motorcycle endorsement is not required.

In order to operate these vehicles on the road, you must be at least 16 years old and hold at least a regular operator or "Motorcycle Only" driver license.

Operators of mopeds and gas powered scooters are required to have a Class A, B, C, or E license; A motorcycle endorsement is not required.

Mopeds and gas powered scooters are not to be operated with a Learner’s license, regardless of age.



A motorized bicycle is a bicycle with an attached motor used to assist with pedaling. Generally considered as a vehicle. Motorized bicycles are usually powered by electric motors or small internal combustion engines. Some can be propelled by the motor alone if the rider chooses not to pedal; while in others the motor will only run if the rider pedals. Motorized bicycles are distinguished from motorcycles by being capable of being powered by pedals alone if required.

Exception to titling law FS 319.20 reads mopeds, motorized bicycles or any trailer having a net weight of less than 2,000 pounds, are not required to be titled. The 1999 legislature did not authorize the registration of motorized bicycles to be registered or provide proof of insurance. Therefore motorized bicycles are not required to be registered or title in Florida.



Thank you again for your inquiry,







Customer Service Center

Correspondence/Email Unit

Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles

Official Website Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles




The Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles is committed to Service, Integrity, Courtesy, Professionalism, Innovation and Excellence in all we do. Please let us know how we are doing via our online customer service survey at Official Website Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles.


Right or wrong I "hinted" that their county police department was on the verge of harassment.

In reality as much as I dislike the ACLU, I do think they would jump all over that police department. And the state police too.

There are many interesting ideas in both of the letters from AMA.

Terry

 

[Fulltimer]

I never did hear back from ABATE.

Terry

 

[anim8r]

Not all states have crappy MB laws. A national org could end up leading to some national rule that (for example) okays MBs to ride @ 20mph or limits motors to 49cc. I'm getting screwed because ALL the roads around here are 40 mph & I've got a 66cc. Why shouldn't a guy in some holler of KY be allowed to open it all the way up on a boonie cruise? Why should someone in the suburbs of WY have to get a new motor --or even wake up earlier -- to get to work because of a problem in FL?

Or worse -- what if NONE of us get to ride anymore??

If you want a national center for helping orgs take care of their own problems at the county or local level, I could probably support it. But don't ask me to park my bike so you can ride yours....sorry man, but we just don't know each other that well.

Maybe I'm looking too far into the implications, or I'm assuming something that isn't true, but until that's clarified I have to vote a serious "no" to any national-level action. I wish you the best of luck with your local problem. Stay focused.

 

[decoherence]

you shouldn't worry. there are motorcycle organisations. the motorcycle laws vary a lot. state by state
like in california they have to where helmets but they can split lanes.
here in florida, we can't split lanes but we don't have to were helmets.

the only national organisation that hasn't had things go there way by organising is NAMBLA. lol

 

[anim8r]

you shouldn't worry.

I could start a thread of things politicians told us we shouldn't worry about. Turns out they were either lying, wrong, or about to be corrupted. I could also start a thread about legislation attempts that have gone all Wile E. Coyote & ended with nobody but armchair lawmakers being happy.

As long as I'M the one who risks losing yet another freedom, I think I'll go ahead & maintain my concern.

Again, until it's clarified, I'm dead against it.

 

[Fulltimer]

I could start a thread of things politicians told us we shouldn't worry about. Turns out they were either lying, wrong, or about to be corrupted. I could also start a thread about legislation attempts that have gone all Wile E. Coyote & ended with nobody but armchair lawmakers being happy.

As long as I'M the one who risks losing yet another freedom, I think I'll go ahead & maintain my concern.

Again, until it's clarified, I'm dead against it.

The idea of a national organization isn't to change any state laws/rules. The biggest thing it would do is to promote the use of motorized bicycles be it gas or electric. If riders in a state wanted some help in organizing a club, it could help. If riders in a state wanted help concerning changing state laws, it could help. The national organization would in itself NOT try to change any state or national laws. It would be an organization made up of people with an interest in motorized bicycles. It will be whatever the members want it to be.

Here is one idea I had: we could develop a logo that could be put on a companies web page as a seal of approval of the national organization. That seal would tell customers of the XYZ business that they will get good service there. If a company gets bad reviews by our members that company would not get to use the seal.

That is just one idea.

At some point, soon, I am going to need other people involved in getting this off the ground. I don't want this to be a one man show. Actually, I would rather someone else take it over and just let me help. But until that happens I'll keep plugging away at it. I think its a great idea and its too bad it didn't get rolling the last time this was thought of.

I'm also open to suggestions!

Terry

 

[Otero]

I think a national association is absolutely essential to our sport. Where
would hotrodding be if the NHRA hadn't been formed to raise public
awareness and counter the hitherto image that builders were all speed
crazed deliquents.
Good Lord, from the date of its signing, politicians & vested interests
have been finding ways to erode our constitutional liberties. We need
a united front to represent the positive economic and environmental
value of mbs. People need to know there is a practical alternative to
bumper to bumper freeway smog jams. They need to be made aware
that, besides conserving petrol reserves and reducing pollution, bicycle
infrastructure, motored or not, costs but a small fraction of say
digging a freeway under Boston or Seattle.
We really need to take a cue from the Dutch. What good is mass
transit if you can't reach your individual destination. Their system is
geared to transport bikes or just leave it at a parking facility that can
accommodate as many as 10k bike so that,reaching your destination,
you simply rent another bike for a very nominal fee. Think what this
would do for urban congestion.
Of course We face greater challenges in terms of distance and
topography. That's why MBs are important. Us babyboomers won't
be able to pedal forever. Is just makes sense to have long range,
high mileage, environmentally sound transport.
Geez, I the think the government oughta subsidize us instead of
persecuting us.

 

[biknut]

I think a national association is absolutely essential to our sport. Where
would hotrodding be if the NHRA hadn't been formed to raise public
awareness and counter the hitherto image that builders were all speed
crazed deliquents.
Good Lord, from the date of its signing, politicians & vested interests
have been finding ways to erode our constitutional liberties. We need
a united front to represent the positive economic and environmental
value of mbs. People need to know there is a practical alternative to
bumper to bumper freeway smog jams. They need to be made aware
that, besides conserving petrol reserves and reducing pollution, bicycle
infrastructure, motored or not, costs but a small fraction of say
digging a freeway under Boston or Seattle.
We really need to take a cue from the Dutch. What good is mass
transit if you can't reach your individual destination. Their system is
geared to transport bikes or just leave it at a parking facility that can
accommodate as many as 10k bike so that,reaching your destination,
you simply rent another bike for a very nominal fee. Think what this
would do for urban congestion.
Of course We face greater challenges in terms of distance and
topography. That's why MBs are important. Us babyboomers won't
be able to pedal forever. Is just makes sense to have long range,
high mileage, environmentally sound transport.
Geez, I the think the government oughta subsidize us instead of
persecuting us..flg.

I'm with you except for the last line. Lets leave the crooked corupt government out of this.

 

[Otero]

Why? Do you think it's just gonna go away by itself? C'mon everyone knows it.

 

[Otero]

Okay, look, the only thing stopping us from effecting true positive change is that
we allow ourselves to be governed by the corporate bottom line thinking that we
powerless to do anything about it. That simply is not true. There is no need for
a violent upheaval.
It might be nice if we could all afford hybrid cars, but the simply truth is that
it's still cheaper for most of us to keep pouring gas into our obsolete clunkers. Do
you think the oil industry doesn't know that?
If you've noticed the recent drop in gas prices it's because people are saying,
"No, at these prices I'm just not going to drive today." I know I have.
In order to make our voices more loudly heard in D.C. I think it's important
to join with cycling purists to present a stronger lobby. I know that until now
there has been an attitude of disdain toward MBs. Still, I think they can be made
to realize we have a common goal. Right now motor bikng consists of a small
fragmented group struggling to enjoy the freedom they deserve. The very best
way to change that is to get everyone who is able on two wheels.
I have suffered 'major' traumatic injuries to both legs and I still pedaled
2k last year without power. There's got to be millions of people out the who
just haven't realized what they are capable of doing. We need to let them know.