Electric Trike with 130 Mile Range !?!
- Thread starter Michigan Mike
- Start date
LOL!! Har, I have been trying just that. More so I would finish just one. Have 3 going in the shop (old horse trailer, not a lot of room) Can not tell where parts from one start or another ends. Is maddening. Sad part is $ situation is about to get better and that always means I will happen across some thing that would make a cool some thing if I buy this or that. Get excited and bamm, have another unfinished, seemed like a good idea thing holding dust down. I need MBAA, snork. (I don't want to quite, just build responsibly)
Even further off topic. (sorry Mike, 2 pots of coffee and can't stop typing, ) I was telling some one about your "how to" book. Is it still available Deacon?
Even further off topic. (sorry Mike, 2 pots of coffee and can't stop typing, ) I was telling some one about your "how to" book. Is it still available Deacon?
I give it to newbys now who want to build a quick easy friction drive. If the parts were always available for the pusher I am building now, I would make a book for it. You have to just luck out to get that motor mount.
Electric "Bike" with 60 Mile Range
No peddles on this electric "bike" that claims a 60 mile range but it still looks like it may have a lot to offer for alternative transportation.
Check out the video at the bottom of the page on the first link below to see it in action. Looks like it could be a little top heavy but I suppose the battery pack could be reconfigured or down sized (something like the second model below which should have a much lower center of gravity).
AtomicZombie - LongRanger Electric Bike
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Here's another model that may also have potential:
AtomicZombie - Silent Speedster Electric Scooter
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Here's a push trailer:
AtomicZombie - CycleBully Electric Trailer
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More plans for more bikes on their home page:
AtomicZombie Recumbent, Trike, Chopper, Scooter and Electric Bike Plans
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I haven't built or ridden any of these bikes so I can't comment on their road worthiness or safety ... they may or may not be OK ... just thought I'd pass along the site for discussion and "food for thought".
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No peddles on this electric "bike" that claims a 60 mile range but it still looks like it may have a lot to offer for alternative transportation.
Check out the video at the bottom of the page on the first link below to see it in action. Looks like it could be a little top heavy but I suppose the battery pack could be reconfigured or down sized (something like the second model below which should have a much lower center of gravity).
AtomicZombie - LongRanger Electric Bike
--------------------------------
Here's another model that may also have potential:
AtomicZombie - Silent Speedster Electric Scooter
-----------------------------------
Here's a push trailer:
AtomicZombie - CycleBully Electric Trailer
------------------------------------
More plans for more bikes on their home page:
AtomicZombie Recumbent, Trike, Chopper, Scooter and Electric Bike Plans
-------------------------------------
I haven't built or ridden any of these bikes so I can't comment on their road worthiness or safety ... they may or may not be OK ... just thought I'd pass along the site for discussion and "food for thought".
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Hi Deacon. My understanding is that you can have your chargers run in parallel even if the batteries are in series but it only works on some chargers that have special isolated leads. I believe marine chargers are often in this configuration. In your own case it wouldn't matter if you are charging them separate from when you are running them. You could also probably wire your chargers in series too. I am charging a bunch of SLA's right now with 3 mismatched chargers in series. As long as the voltage is right.
Your basket idea is intriguing and should work. The generator I am using is about 14kg. You could probably get a 2 stroke generator though for less money. The big hardware store here has some for sale at $135! and they would probably work fine for you even if they weighed a bit more.
The generator I am using is rated for 1000watts max output. The most my Hub motor is supposed to draw at 48v is 700watts so I should have more than enough capacity. The next trick is to find a high capacity charger or power source that can put out about that much juice when needed and still not cook the batteries.
That is correct. Tribrid means that it can use 3 sources of power. ICE, Electric and Peddle (or people)
I like that generator article. I had considered building my own but I figured it would be too heavy and take up too much space. The advantage of course is that it would be tailored to the application and would be inexpensive to build.
Okay I think that after/if I start the next build I'm going to give some serious thought to building a generator.
Weedeater two stroke to turn a 24volt motor. I suppose the size of the motor and the speed of the weedeater will determine how much the output is. Probably have to do some research on how to limit the output amps. Otherwise it would fry the battery. I don't even have a way to measure the output amps of a generator. Does anybody know how that is done.
Mike on the zombie long range bike. You could in theory put all those batteries on a trailer like I build. That way you would just load up the amount of power you need for the trip. It's just a matter of money and weight. Money to buy a bigger hub engine to pull them and the cost of the batteries. Probably go with a couple of forty ah lith systems in parallel.
If 12 ah will get you 8 miles no pedaling then 80 ah would do about 50 or 60 miles, i would think.
You know I have finally figured out how to build a cheap electric drive, so I will be doing a how to booklet next I think. Then I might just tackle the generator idea. Oh I do have to fabricate a motor bracket before I can start my how to build....
Weedeater two stroke to turn a 24volt motor. I suppose the size of the motor and the speed of the weedeater will determine how much the output is. Probably have to do some research on how to limit the output amps. Otherwise it would fry the battery. I don't even have a way to measure the output amps of a generator. Does anybody know how that is done.
Mike on the zombie long range bike. You could in theory put all those batteries on a trailer like I build. That way you would just load up the amount of power you need for the trip. It's just a matter of money and weight. Money to buy a bigger hub engine to pull them and the cost of the batteries. Probably go with a couple of forty ah lith systems in parallel.
If 12 ah will get you 8 miles no pedaling then 80 ah would do about 50 or 60 miles, i would think.
You know I have finally figured out how to build a cheap electric drive, so I will be doing a how to booklet next I think. Then I might just tackle the generator idea. Oh I do have to fabricate a motor bracket before I can start my how to build....
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Deacon,
I like your idea for loading only the power you need for the trip.
Looking forward to your "how to" booklet. Please remember to keep it simple for us electronic simpletons! lol
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I like your idea for loading only the power you need for the trip.
Looking forward to your "how to" booklet. Please remember to keep it simple for us electronic simpletons! lol
.
Its really simple trust me. I write them so that I could have understood them for my first build... lol now that is simple
My apologies if I'm butting in on my first post, but I'd thought I'd sign up and chime something in here that doesn't appear to have been suggested already. We already have an electric motor of the right voltage on board our electrified bikes to turn into a generator: the same one that is pushing you along. At least assuming you're all using "permanent magnet" motors, as most electric scooter/bicycle motors out there are.
Spinning that same motor by other means (gas or pedals) can/will generate electricity to charge up your batteries on the go(depending on how it's hooked up). Rather than adding a second electric motor with a weed whacker engine to turn it to generate electricity for recharging, or dropping in a pre-built 110-volt generator and plug-in battery chargers, you can use a little gas engine that can spin your main electric motor and push you on the bike at the same time. When the batteries are charged, switch off the gas engine and resume under electric power.
There are a few benefits doing it this way. Less equipment(weight/bulk) to carry, fewer gadgets to malfunction, and the added bonus of having a backup mechanical means to push you home if you're miles away when something goes wrong with your electric setup. And it should be more fuel efficient, because there will be less drive train and electrical losses.
If you run a 110v generator, you're wasting energy(as heat given off by the charger) converting the 110v to 12, 24, 36 or 48 volts(whatever voltage you're running), and chances are your charger isn't going to convert all the amperage the generator makes, so the generator is burning more gas than necessary to make the amps necessary to run the charger.
A home made 24-volt(or whatever voltage) generator made from a small engine and a second motor will still burn more gas(waste energy) than it produces electricity, though it will be a step or two more efficient than a 110-volt generator with battery chargers hooked up to it.
By letting the gas engine both rotate the electric motor and push you on the bike at the same time, you are putting that extra energy the gas engine is making to use. Now your only real loss is in the efficiency of your drivetrain.
I hope that makes sense.
Spinning that same motor by other means (gas or pedals) can/will generate electricity to charge up your batteries on the go(depending on how it's hooked up). Rather than adding a second electric motor with a weed whacker engine to turn it to generate electricity for recharging, or dropping in a pre-built 110-volt generator and plug-in battery chargers, you can use a little gas engine that can spin your main electric motor and push you on the bike at the same time. When the batteries are charged, switch off the gas engine and resume under electric power.
There are a few benefits doing it this way. Less equipment(weight/bulk) to carry, fewer gadgets to malfunction, and the added bonus of having a backup mechanical means to push you home if you're miles away when something goes wrong with your electric setup. And it should be more fuel efficient, because there will be less drive train and electrical losses.
If you run a 110v generator, you're wasting energy(as heat given off by the charger) converting the 110v to 12, 24, 36 or 48 volts(whatever voltage you're running), and chances are your charger isn't going to convert all the amperage the generator makes, so the generator is burning more gas than necessary to make the amps necessary to run the charger.
A home made 24-volt(or whatever voltage) generator made from a small engine and a second motor will still burn more gas(waste energy) than it produces electricity, though it will be a step or two more efficient than a 110-volt generator with battery chargers hooked up to it.
By letting the gas engine both rotate the electric motor and push you on the bike at the same time, you are putting that extra energy the gas engine is making to use. Now your only real loss is in the efficiency of your drivetrain.
I hope that makes sense.
What you are refering to is called regeneration and unfortunately it isn't very efficient. Here is some information I found here: Electric Vehicles - How to select an electric bicycle
The other feature of the electric motor that we are continuously asked is if the motor recharges the battery, i.e., 'does it regenerate?' An electric motor 'regenerates' by creating electricity when the motor spins in response to an external force. If there is a load attached to the motor this generation causes a big resistance on the motor shaft. This resistance is a very useful feature of electric bike motors and it is used for electric braking.This regeneration as a power supply for battery recharging is not very efficient and cannot be relied on for recharging the battery. The regeneration efficiency of an electric bike is 20-40% which means that to fully recharge a discharged battery, one would have to go downhill 3 or 4 times longer han it would take to recharging a battery using a plugged-in charger. This means that the rider would have to go continuously downhill for 15 - 20 hrs for a full battery recharge. More realistically, if the route your ride your bike on has 20% downhill riding, you will generate enough electricity for 3.3% of the whole battery capacity.
Regeneration is better than not nothing and it could be enough to make a system viable depending upon its use. It just doesn't work as well as you might have thought. The biggest problem is the efficiency of creating current in this fashion. Since the motor is not optimized for use as a generator it is rather inefficient.
The other feature of the electric motor that we are continuously asked is if the motor recharges the battery, i.e., 'does it regenerate?' An electric motor 'regenerates' by creating electricity when the motor spins in response to an external force. If there is a load attached to the motor this generation causes a big resistance on the motor shaft. This resistance is a very useful feature of electric bike motors and it is used for electric braking.This regeneration as a power supply for battery recharging is not very efficient and cannot be relied on for recharging the battery. The regeneration efficiency of an electric bike is 20-40% which means that to fully recharge a discharged battery, one would have to go downhill 3 or 4 times longer han it would take to recharging a battery using a plugged-in charger. This means that the rider would have to go continuously downhill for 15 - 20 hrs for a full battery recharge. More realistically, if the route your ride your bike on has 20% downhill riding, you will generate enough electricity for 3.3% of the whole battery capacity.
Regeneration is better than not nothing and it could be enough to make a system viable depending upon its use. It just doesn't work as well as you might have thought. The biggest problem is the efficiency of creating current in this fashion. Since the motor is not optimized for use as a generator it is rather inefficient.
I see the way you are looking at it, and yes, if you did nothing to the connection between the motor and the batteries - if it were a direction connection - it would work certainly work that way. You would be forced to spin the motor faster than it would be spinning by the batteries to get the voltage higher so that the current starts flowing back into the batteries. If you can't get it to go faster, you won't get a lick of regeneration.
Unless you break the "direct" connection between the batteries and the motor. Say, using relays or some similar method. In theory, the instant you do that, the voltage at the motor will jump well above 20 or even 24 volts. In fact, it should jump to a stupidly high voltage when the magnetic field starts collapsing, but never mind that because you'll have a couple of large diodes there that will allow the electricity to flow back into the batteries as soon as the voltage coming out of the motor is higher than that of the batteries. Which it will be the moment the relays disconnect the "direct" connection to the batteries. Power will flow back into the batteries even if the motor is only spinning at a few hundred RPM. The faster it spins, the greater the current output(amps) to go back into the batteries. Well, in theory. I'll be testing how effective it is myself, so don't worry about it.
Essentially by being able to disconnect the motor in such a fashion, it's like carrying that second motor being used as a generator. If the one makes a lousy generator, so too would the other, in which case we should think about using a small engine to rotate an (self-exciting) alternator instead, as it's meant to generate electricity, and should do it efficiently. Just add some circuitry so the 12 volt alternator switches (quickly) between charging one 12 volt battery and the next. Or run an alternator for each battery, but you're adding unnecessary weight that way.
And I'm sticking to my earlier theory that the motor should do the job. I'm thinking it'll be more of a challenge to make sure you don't charge the battery too fast or for too long. I have a "real" electric bike, and it shows how much power is going back into the batteries...braking from full speed, or while flying down a steep hill, it can push 7 or 8 amps back into the batteries. If a gas engine was there to keep it moving at the same speed, it would keep pushing that 7 or 8 amps indefinitely, which would charge the batteries in an hour and a half. Which might be a bit too fast to be healthy...
Unless you break the "direct" connection between the batteries and the motor. Say, using relays or some similar method. In theory, the instant you do that, the voltage at the motor will jump well above 20 or even 24 volts. In fact, it should jump to a stupidly high voltage when the magnetic field starts collapsing, but never mind that because you'll have a couple of large diodes there that will allow the electricity to flow back into the batteries as soon as the voltage coming out of the motor is higher than that of the batteries. Which it will be the moment the relays disconnect the "direct" connection to the batteries. Power will flow back into the batteries even if the motor is only spinning at a few hundred RPM. The faster it spins, the greater the current output(amps) to go back into the batteries. Well, in theory. I'll be testing how effective it is myself, so don't worry about it.
Essentially by being able to disconnect the motor in such a fashion, it's like carrying that second motor being used as a generator. If the one makes a lousy generator, so too would the other, in which case we should think about using a small engine to rotate an (self-exciting) alternator instead, as it's meant to generate electricity, and should do it efficiently. Just add some circuitry so the 12 volt alternator switches (quickly) between charging one 12 volt battery and the next. Or run an alternator for each battery, but you're adding unnecessary weight that way.
And I'm sticking to my earlier theory that the motor should do the job. I'm thinking it'll be more of a challenge to make sure you don't charge the battery too fast or for too long. I have a "real" electric bike, and it shows how much power is going back into the batteries...braking from full speed, or while flying down a steep hill, it can push 7 or 8 amps back into the batteries. If a gas engine was there to keep it moving at the same speed, it would keep pushing that 7 or 8 amps indefinitely, which would charge the batteries in an hour and a half. Which might be a bit too fast to be healthy...
If I understand you correctly you are trying to isolate the individual batteries with the diodes. Please let us know how well this works. I had hoped to see people try some different things in order to find out what works best. There are so many possible combinations.Unless you break the "direct" connection between the batteries and the motor. Say, using relays or some similar method. In theory, the instant you do that, the voltage at the motor will jump well above 20 or even 24 volts. In fact, it should jump to a stupidly high voltage when the magnetic field starts collapsing, but never mind that because you'll have a couple of large diodes there that will allow the electricity to flow back into the batteries as soon as the voltage coming out of the motor is higher than that of the batteries. Which it will be the moment the relays disconnect the "direct" connection to the batteries. Power will flow back into the batteries even if the motor is only spinning at a few hundred RPM. The faster it spins, the greater the current output(amps) to go back into the batteries. Well, in theory. I'll be testing how effective it is myself, so don't worry about it.
Charging rate is an important consideration and it depends upon the chemistry of the batteries used. I found lots of good information at Welcome to Battery University
At the current time I am using AGM lead acid batteries because they can withstand a recharge rate of up to 4C. The downside is that they are very heavy. For testing purposes they provide a decent margin of error but for a production unit I think they would be a poor choice due to their weight.
Alternatively you could "switch gears" when you need it to regen, so the engine is spinning the electric motor faster than the motor would normally spin to drive the drive wheel. Then it would be like going downhill fast when you're just cruising at normal speeds. There are plenty of ways of going about it!
Thanks for the welcome, Dan.
Here's some more thoughts to chew on.
I moved them to a separate thread, seeing as it was getting off topic. Follow the link if you're interested in more.
Here's some more thoughts to chew on.
I moved them to a separate thread, seeing as it was getting off topic. Follow the link if you're interested in more.
If the gas engine is charging your electric motor's batteries while you're riding the bike and using those batteries, it could never complete the charge. Most likely, you'd be discharging the batteries much faster than the generator could charge them.you can use a little gas engine that can spin your main electric motor and push you on the bike at the same time. When the batteries are charged, switch off the gas engine and resume under electric power.
I hope that makes sense.
Unless I'm missing something, if you're going to lug around a gas powered AC generator and charge batteries to keep a DC motor going, why don't you just use an AC motor for the bike to start with? AC motors are much more plentiful and cheaper than DC motors. If using a generator and an AC motor and use lead-acid batteries for your power storage, use a DC to AC inverter from the batteries to the motor. There's a guy on Youtube that's been experimenting with a corded type AC drill for a motor and using the inverter to convert the DC to AC. I don't think there's any advantage to this method and there's no gain in range. You're always sacrificing one thing or another. With ebikes, it's always range vs speed or the issue of lighter weight batteries. The only solution to all these issues is and will always be battery technology, which still seems to be in the stone ages. Many tinkerers are unknowingly trying to make a perpetual motion machine.
I have thought long and hard about using a motor that was "matched" to the alternator in the genset.
This is what you are suggesting by using an AC motor I believe. You wouldn't require batteries then. Even in this most ideal situation you would only have about 60% efficiency as seen in this video here: Motor to Generator
As mentioned in the video, this isn't anything new as locomotives use this same type of setup today. (Big genset running electric motors driving the wheels)
I would like to retain some type of battery storage on my series coupled tribrid project. The reason being that I would like the option to switch to battery mode and turn off the generator at times when you want to ride in silence. Say on a bike path for example. I did some research on inverters and they are surprisingly efficient.
Think of the generator as just a very big battery. It has the advantage of being easy to replenish (at a gas station) and so it provides you with unlimited range.
There are other benefits of course. It is still a generator. RV owners would love it. Also, the laws are much less restrictive when it comes to electric bikes and a series coupled tribrid qualifies as an electric since the motor is not directly coupled to the wheel.
This is what you are suggesting by using an AC motor I believe. You wouldn't require batteries then. Even in this most ideal situation you would only have about 60% efficiency as seen in this video here: Motor to Generator
As mentioned in the video, this isn't anything new as locomotives use this same type of setup today. (Big genset running electric motors driving the wheels)
I would like to retain some type of battery storage on my series coupled tribrid project. The reason being that I would like the option to switch to battery mode and turn off the generator at times when you want to ride in silence. Say on a bike path for example. I did some research on inverters and they are surprisingly efficient.
Think of the generator as just a very big battery. It has the advantage of being easy to replenish (at a gas station) and so it provides you with unlimited range.
There are other benefits of course. It is still a generator. RV owners would love it. Also, the laws are much less restrictive when it comes to electric bikes and a series coupled tribrid qualifies as an electric since the motor is not directly coupled to the wheel.