creme tires ?

Discussion in 'Wheels, Brakes and Suspension' started by Kartooo, Feb 12, 2017.

  1. Kartooo

    Kartooo Member

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    why on everything in the early 1900's ?
    easier to build or just just cool and popular ?
    i love the look, just put a pair on my schwinn.
     

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  2. ZipTie

    ZipTie Member

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    All tires were white or cream colored as they hadn't figured out that adding carbon black added great strength and wear properties to rubber yet. thus most tires are black to this day. Natural rubber is a Carmel color and zinc oxide was a cheap pigment. The cream tires look cool for vintage / retro look.


    Zip
     
  3. Kartooo

    Kartooo Member

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    ha, now i know the rest of the story.
    they certainly jazz up a bike in my eyes.
    thanks Zip
     
  4. Kartooo

    Kartooo Member

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    after searching around i now find out rubber is a sap similar to maple syrup and get's extracted by a slit in the tree. looks like milk ....
    spring is coming, sap will be running and this dam snow will be gone !!
     
    #4 Kartooo, Feb 14, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  5. dogcatcher

    dogcatcher Member

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    I spent a little time in the Michelin rubber plantations in Vietnam. The sap of the rubber tree is white or a crème white depending on who you talk to.
     
  6. ZipTie

    ZipTie Member

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    Yep its a milk color, but after they roast the sap to give it a solid texture before shipping it out and before curing agents like sulfur and other ingredients are added it gets a darker smokey color. Natural rubber Has been replaced by synthetic rubbers now so color isn't as important but even with synthetics the carbon black adds strength. They still use natural rubber for pool table bumpers, rubber bands as a couple of examples. Your cream tires should hold up almost as well as black ones and probably are made of SBR synthetic rubber.
    In the old days of natural rubber tires and tubes before carbon was added...and before synthetics were developed and improved, it was pretty normal to get a flat once a week if not everyday. Now we have every type of fabrics, Kevlar, steel belts etc to further a tires toughness.
    -zip
     
    #6 ZipTie, Feb 14, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  7. sbest

    sbest Member

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    I spent 34 years working for Michelin. All your information here is spot on.
    Carbon black is being replaced with silica these days, which is more or less colourless, so tires can be dyed any colour you like. It seems most consumers are used to seeing black tires, so even the silica tires are still dyed with carbon black.

    That famous Michelin man? He was originally a stack of white tires!
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Kartooo

    Kartooo Member

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    thanks all for the education.
    running whitewalls on 2 bikes and creme on the other.
    been eyeballing the clay for future replacement or build #4.....
     
  9. ZipTie

    ZipTie Member

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    sbest. Yes the Silica aids in rolling resistance thus better mileage too and offers a cheap filler also, a double win for the tire mfgs. I didn't know it added strength new info for me. I am ignorant how silica would cross link with the rubber for strength but probably does in a micro powdered form. I doubt they use silica in off the shelf bike tires, I believe they use clay fillers in the cheap bike tires as rubber is expensive. I do wonder if these world class bike racers have silica in their tires? Motorcycle tires? Ground Beach sand is cheap compared to carbon black comparatively ...im guessing.
    - Rubber for sure changed the world in a million ways if you think about it from tires to weatherstripping... Speaking of rubber I just had a set of new black Kevlar tires delivered for my new neon green bike build and I am going to change a set of tires later.... Cheers to elastomers.brnot
    zip-
     
  10. sbest

    sbest Member

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    I should make it clear, I was not a rubber or chemical tech, but I did have to know the background of what we were making changes into. I was an electro-mechanical tech and troubleshooter for most of those years.

    The silica (which is what sand is made of) is not ground beach sand but a chemically precipitated form which is micro fine and physically rough and chemically treated to bond with a specifically designed rubber. I believe the cost is on par with carbon black so the main reasons for using it is its physical advantages. It doesn't add strength but it does reduce rolling resistance and improves wear resistance. I worked on very large tires where the silica compounds were mainly used in the tread, the rest of the tire was conventional construction, which is pretty high tech in a Michelin.

    I do believe clays are used in some rubber formulations, but not as cheap replacement for carbon black. The rubber compounds use kerosene, rosin, oils, plastics, fats, and many other substances to get the qualities needed for a certain area of the tire. I am used to seeing 6 to 12 different rubber compounds used in the production of a single tire. The big tires use steel cords rather than kevlar, and some are "bullet-proof".

    Michelin's bicycle and motorcycle tires are just as cutting edge as any of their products, and do use innovative compounds and techniques to achieve amazing results. They had a racing snow tire that had no tread. It worked in specific conditions by having a layer of snow adhere to the rubber!

    Early in my career I was a machinist and I made a ball mould for doing "bounce tests" in the lab. The lab tech brought me back 2 identical black rubber balls. One would pretty much return to your hand when dropped, the other would hit the floor and stay there, no bounce at all. It was kind of amazing.

    Over the years I saw changes, but constant dedication to quality and innovation impressed me. Often it infuriated me, when I was asked to constantly improve accuracy beyond what we had accomplished in the past on the same machines, but it was needed and accomplished. It was an interesting career.
     
  11. Kartooo

    Kartooo Member

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    very interesting how the tech just keeps zipping along in leaps and bounds.
    sounds to me like your an ol fart with head full of knowledge like me. a good portion of it is now outdated and can't be used anywhere. what bothered me several yrs ago is when my Boss passed he took all that knowledge with him. i have a brother in law that worked for goodyr here in MA, then when it closed he went to the plant in VA until he retired. he just schooled me on tire color too.

    several ys ago i took a tour of Edison's place at Ft Myers. there were pieces of rubber there from his time that still looked great and bounced well too ! him and Ford worked together on rubber projects. i'm pretty sure the rubber i saw there was black.
     
    #11 Kartooo, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  12. Mr.B.

    Mr.B. Well-Known Member

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    I think the carbon black also added some UV protection as natural rubber is highly susceptible to sunlight.

    Early in the 1900’s is was also possible to get tires in a alternative ruddy primer red color (as still seen in some rubber hoses). I think the black proved to be more durable and road worthy eventually became more popular.

    Through my own observations I’ve noticed a lot of early tires in England and Europe are actually a distinct light gray color instead of the familiar creme seen in North America.

    I’ve wondered if that was a regional additive or perhaps a color variation of the natural rubber’s source of origin?
     
  13. dogcatcher

    dogcatcher Member

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    Let's not forget that white tires would almost always look dirty.
     
  14. sbest

    sbest Member

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    Zinc or Titanium Oxide (used to make white tires) are both good UV blocking agents. Ozone is more of a problem than UV. Modern tires use a neoprene covering on the sidewalls to protect against ozone cracking. Carbon Black gave the most wear resistance until silica came around.
     
  15. ZipTie

    ZipTie Member

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    Never thought Id learn anything new about rubber on this forum. If you think about it its a very important topic that is seldom brought up. Our life's all depend on the strength and durability of rubber nearly everyday when we hop on a MB, motorcycle or in the car. What are your thoughts sbest on recommended bike tires, pressure, brands, types, tube types, tubeless? Sorry for such a giant open question/ maybe should be a new sticky thread.
    zip-
     
  16. sbest

    sbest Member

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    I'm sorry, I was an expert on the machinery needed to construct truck, earthmover and military tires. I don't know much about bicycle tires.
     
  17. Kartooo

    Kartooo Member

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    ever work on the goer tires ? i saw and drove my 1st one around 1975 in Germany. it used the tires for suspension, they were huge, my guess 7ft tall !! the cab could pivot in place independent of the trailer section. they bounced like crazy and the later ones had a suspension fittet to the driver's seat.
    i found an early prototype https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPEW99d16vE
    later version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkxS1tTeSMg
     
    #17 Kartooo, Feb 21, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  18. sbest

    sbest Member

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    Yes, I would have worked on exactly that type of tire, and many others like it. LAV/Stryker fighting vehicle tires, subway tires, payloader tires 18 wheeler tires and even the double wide truck tires. I don't know anything about the truck, but I've seen those tires get built. Most of these tires are hand built to a degree, although we automated the process more and more each year. It was a very interesting job, and a great employer. Although retired now, I still service this factory with technical expertise.
     
  19. Kartooo

    Kartooo Member

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    tires make the world go round !!
    ahhhh the good ol days. a similar but scaled down version was the gama goat. i drove that one around in WA state. 6 wheel drive, bouncy thing using the tires for suspension. the cab pivoted too. had a small 2 stroke diesel for power. no low end at all, you had to rev it waaaaay up for just a little HP. i think it was around 100HP.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4kMA3L801k
     

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