60 MPH...achieveable? Who cares?!? Let blueprint an engine!

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle General Discussion' started by DVBikes, Mar 18, 2010.

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  1. Motorbike Wanabe

    Motorbike Wanabe New Member

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    Interesting thread for sure. I'll be watching to see if it can be done but also, I'd think that some of the modifications that you're making to one of these engines could also potentially help with the vibration/daily running/longevity of these engines. For the guy who feels 27-30 is fast enough but just wishes that he could see through his rear view mirrors, some blueprinting of these engines could have some serious benefits. Kawasaki once told me that you found that most crankshafts were out of balance from the factory. Anyone doing kits that are based on better running engines, not just speed? The cost of a kit like that might put it way outside of feasibility though.

    Anyways, I'll be watching to see where this attempt goes. Just be careful DV!
     
  2. Creative Engineering

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    This is a multi-part post that will describe in detail the first step that is necessary in order to blueprint one of these engines.

    Step #1:

    Match and dowel pin the cases.

    These engines do not have a "positive" register that ensures perfect bearing alignment. In the interest of H.P., reliability, and attaining a high R.P.M. the bearings must be perfectly aligned. If I can't get this engine to spin up, there will be no chance of making the bike go fast.

    The first photo shows the cases finished, the case half mating surfaces have been machined square to the bearings and three dowel pins have been installed to ensure perfect bearing alignment . I used 3/16" dowel pins. One case half has dowel pin holes that are .1865 in diameter for a press fit of the dowel pins. The other case half has holes that are .1885 in diameter for a slip fit of the dowel pins. Precision reamers were used to make the hole sizes accurate.

    The second photo shows the case halves with hardened and ground Meyer gauge pins inserted into the bearings in one half of the case. I have meyer super precision gauge pins from .011"-.750" in .001" increments. The I.D. of the bearings is 15mm, which is .5905". The gauge pin in the crank bearing is .590", the pin in the countershaft bearing is .589".

    The third photo shows the cases mated together. The dowel pins were a perfect slip fit, with no movement of the case halves.

    The final test, "the feel of the gauge pins". The .590" pin in the crank bearings floats left to right with the slightest touch. The .589" gauge pin in the countershaft bearings passes through and falls out if the cases are tilted even slighty from what would be the normal upright position...as though installed in a bike.

    The cases are perfectly aligned...and pinned, ensuring repeatability.

    Jim
     

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  3. Creative Engineering

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    Thanks AUSMAN...there's a lot more to come!

    Jim
     
  4. Motorbike Wanabe

    Motorbike Wanabe New Member

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    :DSo, the question of the hour Jim.

    If someone has a HT engine and would love to have a sweet running, smooth engine to haul them around, would it be feasible to have this work done to their engine? For me, I'd be looking at having a super-smooth ride with possibly a little more torque. My engine runs great for now but, eventually, it's going to wear out and I'm trying to decide if a rebuild would be better than buying another engine. I know the cost will be different but so will the end result! What are your thoughts on that?

    Oh, and to keep things on the original thread, yeah, go for 60!

    Motorbike
     
  5. Creative Engineering

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    Step #1...post 2

    The following pics show just how much the bearings were out of alignment in the factory assembly. Look at the photos and you will see a drastic overlap of the case edges. In the real world of "precision" the bearings were totally jammed up. Would anyone care to venture a guess as to how much horsepower this robs? I'll say at least 1 H.P. The crankshaft, and the countershaft must float in the bearings. Putting them in a bind greatly reduces H.P., R.P.M. and engine life.

    I now know why so many people say that the engine doesn't "break-in" and start running good until having been run for many miles/hours. I'm going to assume that the cases shuffle, (there is no positive register), into a better bearing alignment over time. This, of course, would allow the crank and countershaft to spin more freely and thereby transform internal friction into rear wheel H.P.

    Given the badly misaligned case, I would have figured that the bearing centerlines were different from case half to case half...which would have posed a real problem. Fortunately they bored the center to center distance perfectly on each half...and I mean PERFECTLY.
     

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  6. Creative Engineering

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    AUSMAN,

    Your comment is too funny...laff

    I am the chicken and the egg...laff

    Jim
     
  7. Creative Engineering

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    Good luck with that...laff

    Jim
     
  8. DonBrouhaha

    DonBrouhaha New Member

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    Interesting thing happens if both Pic 1 and Pic 2 are opened in tabs. If yr browser has tabs, switching between the images causes the Meyer gauge pins to "appear". I'm assuming a tripod and shutter release. Probably impractical to attempt a complete teardown using that technique.

    Interesting stuff Jim - Thanks

    :ride:
     
  9. Creative Engineering

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    Step #1 Post 3..."how to" precisely align the cases.

    In the first pic, I am using a dial indicator that has a resolution of one tenth of one thousandth of an inch...split one of the hairs on your head 10-15 times and that would represent each division on the indicator.

    Using shim stock, level the part to the mill table, and lightly clamp the case so that the indicator sweep around the outer bearing race is no more than .0002. This is time consuming and tricky as you will need to lightly clamp a thin casting just enough to take a skim cut without throwing the part off the table. This is an experience thing, and only a machinist familiar with precision set-ups will be able to do it.

    Do this to both cases...yes tedious X2

    Photos 2&3 show how to square the case half to the mill. Use a precision gauge pin in each bearing as a locator for the indicator. I used a .590" in the crank bearing, and a 589" in the countershaft bearing. Light lock the clamp shown to the right...finger tighten the clamp to the left.

    Run back and forth across the pins until the 590" reads zero, and the 589" reads -.0005. clamp just a tad bit tighter to make sure nothing moves while drilling. Sweep the pins again to make sure nothing moved...repeat until perfect.

    Photo #4...using the indicator: sweep the bore of the bearing until the indicator deflects no more than .0001. Set X&Y to zero. Now you're ready to drill the dowel pin holes. The location isn't critical...just find a nice open spot...but make sure you log your numbers so that you can put the holes in the exact same spot on the opposite case.

    Don't forget, the cases are a mirror image...mentally, keep up with the orientation of the part when on the mill table.

    Jim
     

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    #149 Creative Engineering, Mar 28, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  10. DOC BOLM

    DOC BOLM New Member

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    Jim before anyone ask,No you cant do this at home with a Dremel tool and JB Weld.
     
  11. DVBikes

    DVBikes New Member

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    Sorry jim i see you beat me to posting buy you have better explainations
     
  12. Creative Engineering

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    laff...Yeah I know...but a lot of people have asked that I fully describe each step along the way.

    I only know of two forum members that will be capable of doing the same thing...Retmachinist, and K.I.P. There may be others...but as far as I know...these 2 gentlemen are it.

    Jim
     
  13. Creative Engineering

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    It's O.K. DV...A lot of people were asking for pics so I figured I would do the show & tell.

    In the end...you'll be the star of the project...you're going to ride it!

    Jim
     
  14. GeneFiorot

    GeneFiorot New Member

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    Not such a BS thread after all, right Joey?
    Bets line up boyz
     
  15. K.i.p

    K.i.p New Member

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    Thanks for the nod, I'd definitely want at least a Bridgeport with a DRO for that one, and a sketch pad to map the pin coordinates! Did you pull up a mirror function on the CNC? I think you have just revealed a major reason for some motors being gems and others duds. Shocked to hear there is no positive registration between the halves.
     
  16. Bikeguy Joe

    Bikeguy Joe Godfather of Motorized Bicycles

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    Hmmm, the last time someone called me "Joey" it was right before she performed a sweet concerto on the skin flute.

    I haven't seen a 60mph documentation just yet. So hold that tongue for now.
     
  17. Creative Engineering

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    I did it manually on a Supermax, (Bridgeport style), with a DRO. It really isn't that difficult...it's just a pain to get everything set-up. It is the core of the engine, so if you're going to make one go, it's gotta be done. ;)

    Jim
     
  18. Creative Engineering

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    Motorbike,

    Honestly i'll have to finish this one and do a lesser modified version to answer your question.

    The crankshafts are totally out of whack too. They don't spin true, and they are out of balance. This will be part #2 of the build process.

    I would guess that aligning the cases, and reworking the crank, alone would make all the difference in the world!

    Jim
     
    #158 Creative Engineering, Mar 29, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  19. foureasy

    foureasy New Member

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    how are you going to balance the crank?
    when is the dyno run?
     
  20. stuartracing

    stuartracing New Member

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    That`s some funny stuff "JOE"....
    That`s probable why the seals never want to stay put on the left side rotor seal....Even though there is SOME wiggle room with I/D of the seal, probably not enough to keep from knocking the seal out.....Just found mine all the way off hanging on the crank.....
     
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