New Alberta Law

[Born2bWild]

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType45/Production/MopedPowerBikes.pdf

They worsened the Alberta law for mopeds, at least gas powered ones, to match the rest of Canada.

Electrics now are limited to 32 km/h (from 35) and also have no weight limit (used to be 35 kg)

Now gas powered bicycles need insurance/registration, but are allowed to go 70 km/h and also have no weight restriction.

 

[Rockenstein]

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType45/Production/MopedPowerBikes.pdf

They worsened the Alberta law for mopeds, at least gas powered ones, to match the rest of Canada.

Electrics now are limited to 32 km/h (from 35) and also have no weight limit (used to be 35 kg)

Now gas powered bicycles need insurance/registration, but are allowed to go 70 km/h and also have no weight restriction.

The way I read it modified bicycles powered by a gasoline engine kit are not at all included in any definition now. Bet if you call your gov they will tell you the same or that you can't register one. Wonder why they pulled the plug? Pressure from LEO's or other provinces maybe?

 

[Born2bWild]

As soon as INSURANCE and REGISTRATION is required, it has to be a DEFINABLE item. IF you say "I built it" you just said a BAD word, because it will not be on their LIST, so how can the slave in the mega-call-centre give you a price?

I don't think the price you pay for insurance is based on any risk - it's more "how much can we legally extract from him before he stops buying from us?" and "if we ALL quote high prices he has to buy it SOMEWHERE". Insurance companies are Investment Institutions that also write policies as a sideline.

I will just continue to ride discretely this summer and fall, and play with electrics this winter. In this climate, a bike is just a 6 month novelty at the very best.

Thing is, I don't mind the tighter law, because not everybody out there is like me - some will ride like idiots and ruin it for everybody. Gov't is basically heading it off at the pass, before it gets out of hand.

 

[Rockenstein]

Ahh yes I never bothered to think about the insurance industry...

Are we not at the point yet where we can safely count on bodily digits how many pies the insurance industry doesn't have a finger in?

 

[Emerica]

Effective July 1, 2009, Alberta amended the Use of Highway and Rules of
the Road Regulation adopting Transport Canada's definition of
power-assisted bicycle. At the same time we also amended the definition
of moped, adopting Transport Canada's definition of limited-speed
motorcycle. Adopting Transport Canada's power-assisted bicycle
definition only allows an Alberta power bicycle to have an electric
motor; the intention being power-assisted bicycles are to be operated as
bicycles with an electric assist.

Alberta relies upon Transport Canada to establish motor vehicle design
and engineering standards; including standards for noise and exhaust
emissions. Prior to July 1 of this year many Albertans were purchasing
Transport Canada power-assisted bicycles but, because they weighed more
than 35 kg, they were required to licence and insure them as mopeds
before they could be operated on a roadway in Alberta. Adopting
Transport Canada's definition eliminated this requirement, making these
green alternative vehicles street legal.

Since July 1 of this year an internal combustion engine driven bicycle
is defined as a moped. Mopeds must be licensed and insured, their
riders must wear a motorcycle helmet, and hold at least a class 7
driver's licence.

Considering engine driven bicycles to be a mopeds hasn't made them
illegal. There are no plans at this time to change Alberta's
definitions to allow for engine driven power bicycles.

You are correct, to register an internal combustion engine driven
bicycle as a moped requires an Alberta assigned Vehicle Identification
Number (VIN). Obtaining an assigned VIN should not be difficult; an
Alberta's assigned VIN for an engine driven bicycle will cost $52.50
(including GST). For more information contact the Insurance Bureau of
Canada at 1-866 263-6240, or visit their Alberta assigned VIN webpage:
https://apps.ibc.ca/AlbertaReVin/RevinAppInstructions.aspx

After obtaining an assigned VIN the Alberta Registries agent will
require you to get an out-of-province safety inspection. This
inspection must be done by a certified and licensed motorcycle
technician an Alberta licensed facility. You will be responsible for
the cost of this inspection; please contact Gordon Byer, Manager Vehicle
Inspection Programs, by telephone at 780-427-8901, or by email at
[email protected], to assist you in finding a suitable inspection
facility.

An engine driven bicycle must meet the vehicle equipment requirements
for a moped. A moped must have headlamps, tail lamps, signal lamps,
brake lamps, mirrors, and a side mirror. You may view the Vehicle
Equipment Regulation on the Queen's Printer's website at:
Alberta Queen's Printer:
=9780779743193

You can view Alberta's definitions for power bicycle and moped in the
Use of Highway and Rules of the Road Regulation on Alberta's Queen's
Printer's website:
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/574.cfm?page=2002_304.cfm&leg_type=Regs&isbncln
=9780779743186

You can view Transport Canada's definitions of power-assisted bicycle
and limited-speed motorcycle on Transport Canada's website:
Short Title, Interpretation - Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations (C.R.C., c. 1038) - List of Regulations - Acts and Regulations - Transport Canada
anchorbo-ga:s_2

 

[bgoates]

The following is an Email I wrote to Alberta Transportation and their reply. It would appear that motorized kit bicycles have been made illegal not only in Alberta but throughout Canada via Transport Canada regulations and definitions. I urge all Albertans and Canadians to express their disapproval to the MLA'a and MP's and request the appropriate legislation be amended to allow motorized kit bikes without the requirement to be licensed and insured and to be on equal footing as electric powered bicycles.

Dear Sir:

I have have recently become aware of the new legislation regarding powered assisted bicycles. See http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType45/Production/MopedPowerBikes.pdf

I applaud the elimination of the weight restrictions for electric bikes.

However, I am deeply troubled by the removal of engine driven bicycles from the definition of a power assisted bicycle to the reclassification of the same to "moped" . I am specifically referring to bicycles that have been modified with a small gasoline engine (less than 50cc) for pedal assistance, see http://img1.classistatic.com/cps/kj/091117/961r2/7816l8l_19.jpeg. Under the previous legislation these bike did not require license or insurance. Under the new legislation they are classified as a "moped" . Therefore if one puchases a engine kit (see Zoombicycles SOLD OUT - Jet Stealth 49cc Gas Bicycle Engine Kit | Bicycle Engine Kits | RuiHong Enterprises Ltd. ) he must also do the following to meet the vehicle equipment requirements for a moped:

* Obtain a VIN (cost $52)
* install headlamps, tail lamps, signal lamps,
* install brake lamps, mirrors, and a side mirror
* pay for a mechanical inspection (more $$)
* obtain insurance (impossible)

The performance of of an 49 cc gasoline engine driven power assisted bicycle is no different from that of a 500 watt electric bicycle (I know because I have both). It is clear that the electric bicycle lobby was influential in this legislation at the expense of the engine driven bicycle community. It is also interesting to not that the picture of the bike on the left of the official Alberta Government webpage http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType45/Production/MopedPowerBikes.pdf depicts a gasoline engine powered bike (Revopower see RevoPower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which does not meet the moped vehicle equipment requirements. Clearly the legislators don't no what the **** they are doing and\or have shown a blatant disregard and prejudice of gasoline engine driven power assisted bicycles.

Would you please reply to me(either via email or phone 403-328-8814) with an explanation of the rationale behind the removal of engine driven bicycles from a power assisted bicycle to the reclassification of the same to "moped" .



THEIR REPLY :

Hello Blair:

Thank you for your email of January 11, 2010 regarding mopeds.

The changes to the power bicycle and moped done this past summer were to align Alberta with Transport Canada definitions.

Transport Canada controls the import and construction of motor vehicles for sale in Canada. They also have a definition for power-assisted bicycles; Alberta has aligned with Transport Canada's definitions to stop some confusion that was occurring with vehicles sold in the province.

Limited-speed motorcycles are required to meet certain standards to be allowed in the country; once this vehicle meets these standards a label is to be applied to the vehicle signifying its compliance with federal standards. Alberta aligned the moped definition with the limited-speed motorcycle definition to clear up the discrepancies between Alberta's old definition and the federal government.

The same discrepancy was occurring with the power bicycle definition and the power-assisted bicycle definition. Transport Canada requires power-assisted bicycles to be marked with a label indicating the vehicle is a power-assisted bicycle; the federal classification only allows for electric powered vehicles. Adopting the Transport Canada definition allows Albertans to know from the federal label how the vehicle can be used in Alberta.

The previous definitions Alberta had, which allowed gas powered engines, had different criteria which involved weights. New vehicles were exceeding these weight restrictions and were falling out of their intended use because of Alberta's unique legislation.

Thank you for bringing an error with the publication to our attention we will fix this error as soon as possible. If you have any further questions please contact myself.


Chris Yanitski
Vehicle Safety E.I.T.
Alberta Transportation
[email protected]

 

[Firechicken]

I'm sorry to revive a few month old post but bgoats I am interested in the letter you wrote. I wonder if they have gotten around to correcting thie error or not.

As a side note I am now worried like crazy about building my Motored Bicycle. I live in Calgary Alberta, and just bought my first engine kit. I have not yet bought a bike for it, but after reading this I am really freaked out about getting nailed by some jerk cop forcing me to walk home while he impounds my bike.

I phoned 2 insurance companys and they both told me they could NOT insure my gas motor powered bike even if I had got my vin, inspection and all that, because they have no classification for it and thus just can't insure it.

I have a 750cc street bike, but have not gotten my bike licence other than the learners bit ever as I just ride with people with thier class 6 for years and years. I am starting to figure If I'm going to have to shell out for all this VIN lables, Out of province inspection for crap sakes (I'm a licenced mechanic and it makes no sense to me lol) and then pay to have it insured, I may aswell just poloute the crap out of the enviroment, register and insure my real street bike.

The trouble is I don't want to ride my 750cc street bike, sure I love it, and it's fun for highway cruises, but I really want to get into motored biking, I love the idea and was going to use it to completely replace my vehicle for the summer. I was and still am into the idea so much so that I am willing to ditch my 200kph motercycle for a little 50cc gas powered mountain bike.

I'm not sure what to do now. I am just wondering as long as I have a helmet on(and thats sure not going to be hot 5lb motorcycle helmet either lol) , ride responsibly, maby make sure I have a mirror, headlight and some signals, weather or not the police are going to react well or badly to it, I just don't know. Do I just go ahead and pull out the Yamaha 750cc?

It's just angering me right now as I just got into this, and then found how stupid our laws are regulating this. It's extremely sad that I can get legal and register,insure, and get onto a street bike that will kill you dead faster than you can think of making a mistake, easier and in some situations almost similar costs.


I think I may just say screw it and pick up a bike and just zip around and do my thing, keep writing to my MP's. I envy countries like china and other places where these bikes are just so popular. This traffic system get's it. This is an EXCELLENT wy to get around and travel, and were ignoring it or chopping it off at the you know whats, and making it incredibly cost PROHIBITIVE for us to get into legally, just so it can conform to the law.


Anyways I'd really like to hear how my felow canadians and americns for that matter with restrictive laws on these bikes are dealing with it. Have any of you had any run-ins with the police, or had any legal trouble with riding these things?

Cheers,

Mike.

 

[bgoates]

I have no doubt that Alberta Transportation considers ice bikes as mopeds and therefore requires license and insurance. I also feel that even if one gets a VIN number you will never make them CSVV compliant and able to insure and license.

I too went into my local Alberta Vehicle Registration place and was told they did not require licensing and was given an old copy of the legislation.

I live in a small Alberta tourist town in the summer and was working on my bike outside when a local RCMP officer came buy and started a conversation. He initially told me that it was a moped and required licensing and insurance. I told him about my experience at Alberta Vehicle Registration and showed him the old legislation that I was given. He told me he would look it up but wouldn't bother be riding the bike anyway.

Yesterday he dropped by with another piece of paper which was the old regulations and told me I was OK and to keep the paper for reference. So as far as I'm concerned I am safe riding in my small Alberta town but know people are getting ticketed elsewhere in Alberta.

Not fair for others....but shows how confused people are over this bicycle legislation thing ! The whole thing is so stupid ! My electric bike will outperform by motorized bike yet one is legal and they other is not

 

[Firechicken]

Which papper set do you have? I was thinking I would do the exact same thing and keep the legislation papers on me that match exactally what the registries told me which was what they told you, that is dosn't require anything.

I am not sure which legislative pappers to carry on me as it seems there are a few different ones. I thought I'd at least like to have a copy of those on my in case I do get stoped, because it shows the police that for 1, you do care, and are being responsible and looking into it, 2 it helps give you some weight when you get in a discussion about it and may be helpful in getting you out of trouble.

It's not the be all end all to keep safer, but it could sure help. If you know whee I can get the copy you have I'd appreciate it, it's obvously the same peppers I'm looking for because it sounds just like the ones my registries quoted to me.

Thanks for the reply mate!

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[fasteddy]

I'm all over this forum and others with the same thing. No gas motors on bicycles. PERIOD.

You are open to being charged with operating an unlicensed, uninsured, unregistered motor vehicle. Look up your provinces motor vehicle laws to see what you will have to pay and how long you will have to spend in jail if you get the maximum.

The Feds did a lot of testing and the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia and Ford Motors who were building the Think E-bike at the time were major contributers to the government laws. They also talked to the moped makers around the world to get an idea of how they should be built.

The result is that I just paid $1,700 for a hub motor and a high end battery.
Join the wave folks. The Chinese Government has banned ICE motors in China. They are all electric now.

Steve.

 

[Firechicken]

I'm all over this forum and others with the same thing. No gas motors on bicycles. PERIOD.

You are open to being charged with operating an unlicensed, uninsured, unregistered motor vehicle. Look up your provinces motor vehicle laws to see what you will have to pay and how long you will have to spend in jail if you get the maximum.

The Feds did a lot of testing and the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia and Ford Motors who were building the Think E-bike at the time were major contributers to the government laws. They also talked to the moped makers around the world to get an idea of how they should be built.

The result is that I just paid $1,700 for a hub motor and a high end battery.
Join the wave folks. The Chinese Government has banned ICE motors in China. They are all electric now.

Steve.

Cheers steve. Yeah I agree with you, but on the other hand I am frusterated. an electric bicycle at the current technology there at right now is completely usless to me and many canadians. I m a Licenced auto and heavy duty mechanic holding a ticket for each, and I completely understand the enviromental impact, aswell as the pro's and cons for electric driven bicycles. I know electic motors will outperform a gasoline or diesel any day of the week in terms of work done, and out tourque IC engines by a ratio of like 25:1, an 20hp electric motor can do the work of a 300HP IC car engine. There's a real reason Train engines run electric motor's as primary work to the wheels as the dielels alone would be much too large and inefficient to drive the locomotives otherwise.

However what is extremely frusterating is en electric motor will produce more speed if you wanted it to than these puny little 50-66cc aincent tech 2 strokes ever will and thus looking at a safty standpoint when comparing IC to E motors ONLY can be just as lethal if not more so than an IC. People are gonna just soupe up thier 1,700 watt electrics and start doing 80 kmh down the bike paths. (this is not a valid argument for me however as it'd be, and also is currently done via IC bicycles) Enviromentaly I simply can NOT argue what so ever, and I am 100% pro E Green tech, I am actually currently getting ready to get off the grid completely! My house will be self sustaining power,water, and sewage wise which is fantastic! Even though it has cost me a fortune to do I did not do it for the savings. I did it for the enviroment, just so you guys know I really am pro green any time it's viable to do so, at the cost of over 40 grand to complete.

Back to the frusterating bit, The Electric Bicycle is not an option for me as it's range is limited. I cannot afford to have to negotiate with store owners ect everywhere I go and explain to them every time why I need to use thier power outlet, regardless if it only costs 10-20 cents to recharge. (Think how menotnous it got explaining to everyone how you broke your arm ect lol) Then there is the time that is required to recharge and that could limit my range even more calcuating how much time It will take to recharge for the trip home. Now if your riding so many miles to a place of work within range of the Battery then thats awsome and I'd be all over this as I'd plug in at work and be good to go for the ride home.

NO were not quite ready to be kicing the IC bicycles off the road as of yet. Once Battery and motor tech has improved I will be all over this like fly's on....ummmm LOL. Then we can CONFIDENTLY say YES IC 2 stroke Bicycle engines are Archaic polouters and we HAVE an alternitive VIABLE option.

It comes down to a range and refuleing issue for me, and what is madening is I have just decided against riding my motored Bicycle on public roads and have replaced that mode of ecco easy transportation with my Yamaha Maxim 750cc motorcycle with an 1100fj crotch rocket engine in it instead. I'll now be dumpig out 50 times the noise when I crack the whip, burning 1000 times the fuel, and dumping out 3 times the emmissions. Thats what this Canadian government's soloution has just done for me. Heck my neck door neighbour has a kit and after talking about the penaltys he is also planning on replacing it with a brand new Triumph motorcycle himself.

So while I am all for E bikes, were just not quite ready to call them a replacement on any argument other than the CO emissions they put out.

So Sorry fellas, and steve, I am not provoking or arguing in any way what so ever, I am just frusterated with the laws, and I feel a little better discussing and ranting on it respectfully a little bit, and I appreciate you and any others civil input here.

Respectfully and best wishes,

Mike.

 

[fasteddy]

Mike, there are two words that never will appear in the same sentence. Government and intellegent.
I guess because we have to hire someone to run the country and provinces we give up the right to have it run the way we want it done. The problem also is the people who want to take the job on.
They are interested only about what is in it for them.

Electric at best is a toy or for an old guy like me who doesn't need to go to work a cheap way to get around. Can't rule out the fun factor either.

Think the problem in Canada is that we are too Canadian and too few to make a noise that the politicos will listen too.

Mike I don't think that you need to worry about voicing your frustration here. We can all agree with you.

Your motorcycle sounds great and I don't think that the government cares because your motorcycle was made in a factory and not at home so they don't have to worry about saftey issues.

If the average person made thier house self sufficient the oil co's and the power co's would have a fit.

Guess if we keep swinging, eventually we'll hit a home run.

Steve.

 

[Catfisher]

Join the wave folks. The Chinese Government has banned ICE motors in China. They are all electric now.

Definately the change in Canadian law is restrictive and oppressive. The individual citizen gets screwed.

Without changing the topic or starting a new thread, I'd like to see some documentation on thinking China has banned these bikes/small gas engines in China. I cannot find any news source on this, and with the Chinese average income and the number of people there; they use these by the millions.

Here is a link to the following quote: Motorcycles in China Market Research Report :: Freedonia Group Inc :: Hospitality Trends

Motorcycles in China

Freedonia Group Inc
5/1/2008
227 Pages

US$ 5100 - PDF E-mail From Publisher US$ 7400 - Global Site License Fulfilled by Publisher US$ 5100 - Hard Copy Mail Delivery US$ 5600 - PDF Email from Publisher plus 1 Hard Copy

Abstract:
Demand in China to grow 13.9% yearly through 2011
The market for motorcycles in China is projected to increase at an annual rate of 13.9 percent, reaching 44.4 million units by 2011. Strong growth in the Chinese motorcycle market will be primarily driven by rapidly increasing sales of electric motorcycles, which are signifi- cantly cheaper than gas motorcycles and subject to lower levels of government regulation, making them popular choices among urban consumers as an upgrade to traditional bicycles. At the same time demand for traditional gas motorcycles will see steady growth, with sales especially strong in rural areas, benefiting from rising income levels.

Gas motorcycle sales to remain strong
Demand for gas motorcycles in China will be driven primarily by increases in rural income levels as well as ongoing demand for cheap forms of individual transport across the country. Urban motorcycle bans and other restrictions enforced by local governments will ensure that the gas motorcycle market will remain focused on rural areas going forward. Motorcycles with engine displacements between 50cc and 249cc will continue to dominate demand through 2011, benefiting from their suitability for use in a wide range of rural applications. Smaller models will suffer from competition from electric motorcycles, while market gains for larger machines are expected to be modest due primarily to declining sales in the military and police segments and a mediocre outlook in the transportation segment. Nevertheless, demand for larger motorcycles will see robust growth in the recreation and sport markets, although these two markets will remain relatively small in the forecast period.


If you have newer information, please let me know.

Thanks

 

[Firechicken]

Definately the change in Canadian law is restrictive and oppressive. The individual citizen gets screwed.

Without changing the topic or starting a new thread, I'd like to see some documentation on thinking China has banned these bikes/small gas engines in China. I cannot find any news source on this, and with the Chinese average income and the number of people there; they use these by the millions.

Urban motorcycle bans and other restrictions enforced by local governments will ensure that the gas motorcycle market will remain focused on rural areas going forward. Motorcycles with engine displacements between 50cc and 249cc will continue to dominate demand through 2011, benefiting from their suitability for use in a wide range of rural applications. Smaller models will suffer from competition from electric motorcycles,


If you have newer information, please let me know.

Thanks

Hey Catfisher, if I may add in. I think the Bit I highlighted is what steve may have been reffering to. I heard from word of mouth and nothing that I'd bet on until I knew the facts ect, but I belive the Chinese have banned them off the Urban area's and roads, but still allow but regulate them on non Urban and rural more isolated and smaller communities. I'd imagine they did this as a FISRT step towards a greener and safer, ( in thier studies maby lol) form of transportation for the heavily populated Urban zonez. They are more than likely all to aware that for small rural isolated communities that the IC Bicycle is stilll an extremely important and more than likely (the only) means for poor familys to have any kind of transport at all where electricity is even scarce. (and please I don't mean to imply that rural Chinese are all poor and this and that lol, just many live ot in rural areas as they simply can not afford largeUrban life among OTHER reasons I'm sure)

That is just my take on it and steve may have much more accurate information regarding your question.

 

[fasteddy]

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...1_3DCg&usg=AFQjCNGGmj0dFPhfvqETszFr0e1gIo-MsA

Try this site. It explains the ins and outs of e bikes vs gas bike in China and Asia.

Steve.

 

[Catfisher]

Thanks, that is a really eye opening article. I didn't realize China had made any significant restrictive changes on ICE's based on the environment. We hear often on how big a polluter China is as a nation, I didn't know they were changing.

The scary side of this story for North America is the portent for the future. It's just a matter of time, albeit years, until small ICE's will be banned here as well.

What I don't see is how the average new-'middle class' worker in China can afford ebike lithium batteries. Obviously they're cheaper in China with no shipping, but they are so expensive. I'd love a silent ebike to listen to a radio, but I can't afford a 25 + mile range battery.

Great link, thanks again.

 

[fasteddy]

Catfisher, the batterys in China are mostly SLA's. That is a whole new problem in China since making them is polluting as well.

When China was hosting the Olympics the smog problems led to them cut back the vehicles that were causing the pollution. Millions of MB were the first to go.
They are banned in Canada already and some of the states as well I think.

The good news is that we will see improvments in batterys over the next few years. The Chinese scientists are working on it full time I'm sure.

Steve.

 

[Firechicken]

Yes is was a great article to read wasnt it, thanks Steve. I belive in regards to your comment on the affordabillity of the E-bikes and thier LI battery's catfisher, I think just as the article points out, it takes the Government throwing ALOT of money and subisidy into the project which forces manufactures ect to conform in different ways and make thier products affordable as well as to public standards.

The article did point out that in the beginning the prices were just to cost prohibitive and it did nothing in the way of converting people, as the article puts it "Throwing enough carrots" in front of the consumers. Once the government got involved they did state that costs were reduced alot, and went on to speculate as time and technology progresses with more time spent on project, government effort, and the all mighty dollar is thrown at it we will eventually end up with as the article puts it having a "stick" to hang the carrots on and lure more horses along.

I think this equates to things such as manufactureing factories and thier current tech level, thier mnufacturing costs ascosited with that, level of competition due to the dammand which will grow due to the govt. input. and many other ecconomical elements will all start to come into play to help the electric stuation. This of course is only speaking in refference to the article and it's discussion of Tiwan

Interstingly enough China's different aproach was banning them all together, therefore forcing the electric bicycles into the limelight. There are so many factors at play here and all i'm doing is a rubish job of trying to explain my thoughts on this, however it does seem that Government involvment with thier cheque book giving a strong backing does play a very important role in developing the electric bicycles and thier technology at a consumer affordable level to be considered on at least equal footing to IC soloutions.

 

[kyle]

Hey guys,
I'v just completed my first bike, and am completely stoked to start riding it.
I have a question geard towards those of you who have had a decent a amount of on the road already. Has any one been pulled over yet? if so what exactly happend? did you get ticketed? did they take your bike? where they laughing when they walked up to you?(serously) I understand that it would totaly be dependent on how that paticular cop's day is going. I mean as long as your obeying the laws and operating it in a safe manner, do they even look twice when they pass? touch and go, I guess. The thing is with the law there is always a loophole somewhere. But as a class1 driver my licence is my livelyhood so unessary/ unwanted tickets from this could pose a problem.

 

[fasteddy]

Kyle it's all been gone over and over here in the legal thread. If you look around you'll find it and you can make your own mind up.

I wouldn't do it myself but then my argument in the days when I didn't mind poking an angry bear in the backside with a short stick, was that there is nothing is illegal until they catch you at it.
I had to stop when I found out that the bear could run faster than I could.

Steve.