Pulled over and Arrested in Cocoa, Fl

[JustAnotherBozoOnABike]

I have never been able to conceive how any rational being could propose happiness to himself from the exercise of power over others.

“The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free, neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.”

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

Thomas Jefferson

Just a few thoughts about our hobby and cops

...funny you should mention my man Tom, lol.

here's one from his pal Ben.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

...and here's one that the media could take a lesson from.

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -- Thomas Paine

these guys really knew what they were talking about.

, bozo

 

[Toadmund]

Was going to say, what a bunch of Richard heads American cops are, then I read Kioshk's post, then I thought, at least some of them are like the cops here.
I've never been stopped, but my brother has because it was getting dark, he had no lights or reflective gear, he said he was on his way home because of approaching darkness.
Anyway, they were curious about his machine, asked questions, and told him to wear at least reflective clothing at least, and sent him on his way.

Good luck with the BS you must endure, maybe Bozo can help you get out of Dodge, er Florida.

 

[Kioshk]

Hey guys, incidental story: last night at about 1AM, I was bored, went to the local 7-11, got a six-pack, and headed out to a nearby beach on Long Island. This particular beach is on a 1.5-mile long peninsula that once had a public road which has been converted to a pedestrian walk. The surrounding beach and creek-land is now a nature-conservancy, and the entrance to the area is reached by a main road that's about 3-miles from town. Anyway, its public parking area is obviously a very popular location for hanging out, making out, and going out in general. The cops patrol the area regularly. I rode the 3-miles from town and met no traffic at all. When I rode into the beach's entrance, found two Suffolk Police cars in "mating position" (driver-window to driver-window); the cops were chatting. I coulda easily avoided meeting them and noticed they were parked in front of the parking-lot gates, which were closed. The pedestrian-walk was beyond them. I took the initiative of puttering up to them to say "Hey guys! Is the nature-walk closed too?" One responded "Nah, it's all yours, do what you want!". I puttered off and enjoyed a couple of beers on the beach in the moonlight.

 

[Kioshk]

BTW: here's a video of the location in question. Apologies for the wind-noise. The microphone-baffle fell off. The nature-walk is at about 00:12:45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmMUqou8F6M

 

[Desert Rat]

the only times I've been pulled over here is when they want to see my bike
hey I enjoy the attention, but after about a minute I have to politely say
gentlemen you are an officer of the court and since anything I say can be used
against me, I must be careful so unless you're charging me with something I
must bid you adue
(I laugh, they laugh or smile, and I ride away with a smile
it's all in the attitude mine as well as theirs!

 

[picklefish]

I have court tommorow morning at 9 a.m. I am to plead "not guilty with explanation". Afterthat it will have to go to trial if the judge doesnt dismiss or the county doesnt drop. Im bringing a picture of my bicycle with the Schwinn side out and copies of all the dmv and definitions as has been discussed on other threads.

I can only hope that they charge of possession of suspended liscence with knowledge gets dropped as well. That rule sucks!

 

[RonB]

I have court tommorow morning at 9 a.m. I am to plead "not guilty with explanation". Afterthat it will have to go to trial if the judge doesnt dismiss or the county doesnt drop. Im bringing a picture of my bicycle with the Schwinn side out and copies of all the dmv and definitions as has been discussed on other threads.

I can only hope that they charge of possession of suspended liscence with knowledge gets dropped as well. That rule sucks!

wish you luck tomorrow!

 

[picklefish]

Public pretender was assigned, July 11th court date. $50 public pretender fee, $50 case resolution fee.
Since this was an arraignment hearing thats all they did. You got to love proceedure for proceedures sake!
These tickets are just another form of taxation.
I am charged with violations under 320 and 322 of the code
Count 1 : Driving while liscence suspended w/ knowledge 1st offence 322.34 (2A)
Count 2 : Unlawful use of lic perm use display cancelled 322.32(1)
Count 3 : No motor vehicle registration 320.02(1)

My response 1: operation a bicycle requires no liscence
2: Same as above
3: a bicycle isnt required to be registered.
Their claim that a vehicle plus a motor = motorvehicle is flawed since a moped is specifically mentioned in the exclusions to the motorvehicle definition as are all electric vehicles.
Despite the recent losses of others I still feel that a jury of reasonable adults can see this. I am going to file pretrial motions to dismiss however in hopes of avoiding that alltogether. Unfortunately the prosecutors have nothing better to do since most people plead out and pay their fines to be done with it. They might enjoy the opourtunity to actually do something! lol. The whole system is a joke, at least when you lose your money to a casino you know its a racket and usually you can get some free drinks at least. I wish court was the same way.

 

[RonB]

Public pretender was assigned, July 11th court date. $50 public pretender fee, $50 case resolution fee.
Since this was an arraignment hearing thats all they did. You got to love proceedure for proceedures sake!
These tickets are just another form of taxation.
I am charged with violations under 320 and 322 of the code
Count 1 : Driving while liscence suspended w/ knowledge 1st offence 322.34 (2A)
Count 2 : Unlawful use of lic perm use display cancelled 322.32(1)
Count 3 : No motor vehicle registration 320.02(1)

My response 1: operation a bicycle requires no liscence
2: Same as above
3: a bicycle isnt required to be registered.
Their claim that a vehicle plus a motor = motorvehicle is flawed since a moped is specifically mentioned in the exclusions to the motorvehicle definition as are all electric vehicles.
Despite the recent losses of others I still feel that a jury of reasonable adults can see this. I am going to file pretrial motions to dismiss however in hopes of avoiding that alltogether. Unfortunately the prosecutors have nothing better to do since most people plead out and pay their fines to be done with it. They might enjoy the opourtunity to actually do something! lol. The whole system is a joke, at least when you lose your money to a casino you know its a racket and usually you can get some free drinks at least. I wish court was the same way.

Was hoping to hear that all charges were dropped? So i guess you will have to fight for your rights now" Based on what happened during my court case I would suggest you get someone from the DMV to appear as a witness , the notarized copy from the DMV will not be allowed in court unless you have a representative from the DMV to authenticate it, otherwise it will not be admissible as evidence. As far as reasonable adults seeing the differences between Bicycle and mopeds? I can tell you first hand that they will not see the difference much like the judge told me . if it has a motor on it it must be a motor vehicle and that was from a judge" so when you go before someone that has basically no experience with the law such as most jurors they are told make a decision based on the law as written" I really wish some lawyer here either from this forum or a friend/relative from this site would step up to help you!

 

[picklefish]

I will definately subpoena a dmv representative, thanks for that.
As far as the law as written, the definition of motorvehicle specifically excludes mopeds from that class of vehicle.
"but the term does not include traction engines, road rollers, special mobile equipment as defined in s. 316.003(48), vehicles that run only upon a track, bicycles, swamp buggies, or mopeds."
Therefore by their own definition bicycles, mopeds and the like are not "Motorvehicles".

what was done to you was a travesty of justice in my opinion.

 

[SpecialX]

Pickle,
Trust me on this..
Do NOT try to use that statute as a defense.. It will NOT work..
There is a Florida Attorney General "opinion/opin" concerning something very similar which the State's Attorney WILL use against you in court.
I stated this in the other thread, but will again.
Basically, they WILL use the Driver License statute which states that a moped is a motor vehicle and that's what you're being accused of, DL suspension while operating a motor vehicle.

You should look up or ask around here, I know there are a few people that know the names and counties where others have has their cases dropped.
THAT more than anything should help you.. And they can't say it's "heresay" as its public record in the court system. Maybe you can even get someone that HAS "beaten" their case come and appear before the court, in your defense.

Get that info and get it over to your PDef for him to use.
Anyone else have any ideas for pickle?
THIS time, We need this to get taken care of the best way possible.
I would maybe even talk to a lawyer well versed in bicycle law.
Anyone know of one that would do pro bono work for Pickle?
Also, in terms of that DMV document.. Forget the notorized version of it..
Maybe the DMV website that has that procedural document can be used..
How can it be "hearsay", when its on the actual DMV procedural list?

Edit: I just re-read the TL-10 procedural document again and it DOES state that a bicycle with a GAS ENGINE, can NOT BE LEGALLY REGISTERED AS A MOPED, AND NOR it is required.

Ok, I found this for you...
[email protected]
That is the email of the person IN CHARGE of the Procedural documents on the flhmvs government website.

Maureen McGinley
DMV Procedures Manager

SHE would be the one to subpoena, in case the states attorney tries to claim "heresay" on that document.
She's in charge of it.
(BTW... SHE, PERSONALLY, was the one that made the edit/change on that section of the TL-10 document that made the language SPECIFICALLY state "GAS ENGINES", instead of the old verbiage that had the question on gas engines and the answer was about electric motors. NOW the answer IS about gas engines. Oh, and "Your Welcome").


If they STILL try to say its "heresay", you can take the witness stand and say, "I looked up on the DMV's procedural website and saw that it states, that a gas engine/bicycle combination, can not be legally registered/titled, nor it is required, so that's what I went by, your honor. If any reasonable / logical person read that, they would believe that they are not "mopeds" and since they are not considered as such, they are not held to the same requirements/standards that a moped/motor vehicle would be."
If the state's job is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, they will FAIL, because any "reasonable person" who read that document, would come to the same conclusion. (That's your lawyer's job to bring that "reasonable doubt" issue)
I'm not sure if the reasonable doubt is used in a non-jury trial or not, you'll have to ask your lawyer about that.
Also, if you DO WIN, and PROVE the SA is wrong, you need to get the OFFICIAL transcript of your entire case. So that others can use your case in their defense.
(This does NOT work, if they TRY to "drop" the case with a pro sequi verdict.
(Pro sequi means, that they still find you guilty, but don't want to prosecute you THIS time, BUT they CAN still charge you AGAIN, if you get pulled over after the case is finished - this is what you do NOT want, you want the case heard and dismissed with a complete NON-GUILTY verdict.)

 

[picklefish]

There are three definitions sectiions. 322 is under drivers liscences. 316 is state uniform traffic control and 320 is motor vehicle liscences. 316 and 320 exclude bicycles and mopeds while 322 doesnt mention mopeds but does include any human powered vehicle. Do you have a link to the TL-10 document or can you email me a copy?

 

[SpecialX]

They will use 322.01 definition that will state a motor vehicle does not include a motorized bicycle, etc.. Makes no exception for mopeds... And if its not an exception, it's included. (If a statute includes exceptions, legally speaking, anything not excluded IS included.)
You will not be able to use "a moped" isn't a motor vehicle. It's well established that a moped IS a motor vehicle.. That is NOT your conjecture. Has literally NOTHING to do with your case anyways.

The proceural document can be found here...
http://www3.flhsmv.gov/DMV/Proc/TL/TL-10.PDF

Please re-read my post as I have just edited it.

Remember - A Moped and a bicycle/gas engine combination are NOT the same thing and are mutually exclusive of each other. That's the main part of the "gray area" that everyone's talking about.
Your contention is that gas bicycles are NOT mopeds and that you being a reasonable person saw that the DMV document states that.
Mopeds require licenses, gas bicycles (NOT being mopeds, as described by the DMV) are not required.
They will TRY to use the moped statutory definition against you, but don't waver from the fact that the DMV does NOT recognize them as such.

EDIT: I would ask your Pub Def, to have a pre-trial hearing (or whatever its called) with the judge and the SA about whether the DMV document CAN be used in your case. That will kind of hedge your bets before your actual trial and give you a better indication if you will win or not. If the judge disallows it completely, I think that's when you really need to take the stand and state that you thought that what you read on the DMV's website was correct and any other reasonable person would as well.

 

[picklefish]

So the def of motorvehicle is "Any self propelled vehicle...." My engine assisted bicycle isnt self propelled, it takes human power to get it to work. That sort of argument?
I had already seen that tl-10 document just didnt remember thats what it was.

 

[Mike B]

I like that.

"If it has a motor on it, it must be a motor vechicle"

Works for me.

 

[SpecialX]

Forget the "self propelled" argument.. It don't think or know if it will hold up for you...

I think, the "Generally recognized as a bicycle" argument would work MUCH better..
**************************
Florida statute, Title XXIII, Chapter 316.003(2) states, in part,
(2) BICYCLE.—Every vehicle propelled solely by human power... AND including any device generally recognized as a bicycle.

The FLHMVS TL-10 Document states that adding a gas engine to a bicycle, does NOT classify it as a moped AND it remains a BICYCLE..
In other words, if the FLHMVS (The Department responsible for handling DL's, registrations/titling of motor vehicles, etc) generally recognizes it as a bicycle, then it DOES meet the statutory definition of a bicycle in F.S. 316.003(2) and therefore does NOT require a DL to ride one.

Now remember, I am NOT a lawyer.. This is just how I, PERSONALLY, would go about fighting it in the courtroom.
YMMV

 

[picklefish]

Mike B sounds legit!
Special X- will do, and thanks for your insight.

 

[RonB]

Pickle,
Trust me on this..
Do NOT try to use that statute as a defense.. It will NOT work..
There is a Florida Attorney General "opinion/opin" concerning something very similar which the State's Attorney WILL use against you in court.
I stated this in the other thread, but will again.
Basically, they WILL use the Driver License statute which states that a moped is a motor vehicle and that's what you're being accused of, DL suspension while operating a motor vehicle.

You should look up or ask around here, I know there are a few people that know the names and counties where others have has their cases dropped.
THAT more than anything should help you.. And they can't say it's "heresay" as its public record in the court system. Maybe you can even get someone that HAS "beaten" their case come and appear before the court, in your defense.

Get that info and get it over to your PDef for him to use.
Anyone else have any ideas for pickle?
THIS time, We need this to get taken care of the best way possible.
I would maybe even talk to a lawyer well versed in bicycle law.
Anyone know of one that would do pro bono work for Pickle?
Also, in terms of that DMV document.. Forget the notorized version of it..
Maybe the DMV website that has that procedural document can be used..
How can it be "hearsay", when its on the actual DMV procedural list?

Edit: I just re-read the TL-10 procedural document again and it DOES state that a bicycle with a GAS ENGINE, can NOT BE LEGALLY REGISTERED AS A MOPED, AND NOR it is required.

Ok, I found this for you...
[email protected]
That is the email of the person IN CHARGE of the Procedural documents on the flhmvs government website.

Maureen McGinley
DMV Procedures Manager

SHE would be the one to subpoena, in case the states attorney tries to claim "heresay" on that document.
She's in charge of it.
(BTW... SHE, PERSONALLY, was the one that made the edit/change on that section of the TL-10 document that made the language SPECIFICALLY state "GAS ENGINES", instead of the old verbiage that had the question on gas engines and the answer was about electric motors. NOW the answer IS about gas engines. Oh, and "Your Welcome").


If they STILL try to say its "heresay", you can take the witness stand and say, "I looked up on the DMV's procedural website and saw that it states, that a gas engine/bicycle combination, can not be legally registered/titled, nor it is required, so that's what I went by, your honor. If any reasonable / logical person read that, they would believe that they are not "mopeds" and since they are not considered as such, they are not held to the same requirements/standards that a moped/motor vehicle would be."
If the state's job is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, they will FAIL, because any "reasonable person" who read that document, would come to the same conclusion. (That's your lawyer's job to bring that "reasonable doubt" issue)
I'm not sure if the reasonable doubt is used in a non-jury trial or not, you'll have to ask your lawyer about that.
Also, if you DO WIN, and PROVE the SA is wrong, you need to get the OFFICIAL transcript of your entire case. So that others can use your case in their defense.
(This does NOT work, if they TRY to "drop" the case with a pro sequi verdict.
(Pro sequi means, that they still find you guilty, but don't want to prosecute you THIS time, BUT they CAN still charge you AGAIN, if you get pulled over after the case is finished - this is what you do NOT want, you want the case heard and dismissed with a complete NON-GUILTY verdict.)

GOOD Post" some good info here! I would like nothing better than to see pickelfish pull it of? hope he can afford a better attorney than i?

 

[SpecialX]

I wonder, if you went to the DMV and tried to register your bicycle with a gas engine, as a moped (You can register a moped and have NO DL, BTW) and then when they deny it, you can use THAT experience as one of your defense arguments, hopefully, its not HERESAY, as it is what happened to you.
(This advice/opinion is exactly the opposite as to how someone would go about registering a homemade moped, as they wouldn't use the term, "Bicycle with a gas motor added".
Maybe that's how that one guy was allowed to use the DMV document, in his case? I don't know.. Maybe you can find out)

 

[d_gizzle]

I'm guessing picklefish went to the big house?