All names have been removed. Lt ****** is the first officer I spoke with. Officer is the second one. All text copied word for word with no spelling corrections. Pretty sure I made a few myself.
My replies are based on the research that I have and some may be incorrect. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on anything here. I have also contacted the Boise D.A. as suggested, but have yet to hear back yet.
to Me
Lt. ****** asked me to e-mail you. I looked through some of your previous e-mails with the Lt. and I don't know if you have your question answered. I can tell you that I have been stopping gas powered mopeds which I would use the Idaho State Code Definition of a moped and looking at them for equipment. The code I have been using and it has been successful in court in Ada County is Idaho State Code 49-402(10). It states simply if a vehicle does not meet the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety standards it can't be operated on a highway in Idaho. Electric powered mopeds or scooters depending on what you call it would still be considered a vehicle by Idaho Definition and would also have to comply with the FMVSS for that vehicle. Bicycles are defined in Idaho as a solely human powered vehicle. I believe if you add any type of motor to it, it can not be defined as a bicycle any more and would have to be defined as something else like moped, motor driven cycle, etc. I am sure most of these types of vehicles can be made to comply with the FMVSS and the NHTSA rules that apply to them. I hope the State Code 49-402(10) helps you out and you can find the appropriate FMVSS codes for the type of vehicle you are dealing with.
Thanks
to Officer
That is a new point of view that I have yet to come across. What exactly are you charging gas bikes with under this statute?
The code states;
(10) Any vehicle that does not meet federal motor vehicle safety standards shall not be registered and shall not be permitted to operate on public highways of the state, as defined in section 40-117, Idaho Code, unless otherwise specifically authorized.
I'm kind of confused how you can apply this to gas bicycles. The fmvss applies to "manufacturers of motor vehicle and equipment". Putting a motor on a bicycle does not make me a "manufacturer", and as I have pointed out in my previous emails you said you read, a moped does not even fall under the motor vehicle definition.
You are effectively labeling a gas powered bicycle as a motor vehicle (regardless of contradicting evidence), and then trying to enforce the federal motor vehicle safety standards.
I would like to see the cases you have had successfully tried under this statute. I have tried finding any cases that involve gas powered bicycles being prosecuted, and have only found 2 Both of which are currently in the process of filing a motion to dismiss, and neither mentions a fmvss violation.
Feel free to send me some case data, I would really like to see them.
to Me
As you can see in the statue it specifies vehicle not motor vehicle. The FMVSS and NHTSA classify mopeds as motor driven cycles. In State code you have also found that a motor driven cycle is a vehicle by definition. Therefore Any Vehicle that does not meet the FMVSS is an illegal vehicle. A recent decision in Ada County on a Garden City case after a limine brief was filed the Judge agreed 49-402(10) is a violation of State law and is a non moving violation with a fine of $62.00 dollars. There is no such thing I can find as a gas powered bicycle. I am not labeling anything I am simply issuing citations for violations of Idaho law in an attempt to keep the highways safe and in this case a Judge has agreed. I believe that all vehicles on the road should have the safety equipment nessessary for the safe operation including those who are operating vehicles around them. I would suggest we will have to agree to disagree. I was just making you aware of the code section some people were not aware of. As for the case data I would not be able to send those due to it possibly violating public information requests laws and BPD policies. I agree that under ISC definition Moped does not meet motor vehicle. The other case which is going further up the courts they are trying to prove that moped meets the definition of a motor vehicle under federal definitions. If they are successful with the arguement then the definition of motor vehicle in State Code would be changed to include mopeds and motor drivin cycles. I appreciate the amount of work you have put into defending your point of view. I too have put in a lot of research on the issue and believe the code applies. Since the term gas powered bicycle does not exist in Idaho Code or the FMVSS, I would suggest you find a definition in Idaho State code for the type of vehicle you are looking at. It has to fall into a catagory. If you can define it as something other then a moped I would be interested to know what you define it as and the code section which defines it. I would be happy to look at the definition you come up with which excludes it from being defined as a "Vehicle".
to Officer
Really need to cut your replies into paragraphs. A wall of text like that is just way too hard to read. I really don't mean to be insulting or argumentative, but you have so many facts wrong in your reply. I'll list off my issues in the order you replied.
" The FMVSS and NHTSA classify mopeds as motor driven cycles." Not only wrong, but not even applicable, as Idaho code 49-114(13) states;
"Motor-driven cycle" means a cycle with a motor that produces five (5) brake horsepower or less as originally manufactured that meets federal motor vehicle safety standards as originally designed, and does not include mopeds. Such vehicle shall be titled and a motorcycle endorsement is required for its operation.
mopeds are not defined by either agency, and surely isn't part of the motor-driven cycle definition.
"Therefore Any Vehicle that does not meet the FMVSS is an illegal vehicle." Not true either. Bicycles , skateboards, rollerblades etc all fall under the vehicle definition(49-123(2)). None of those meet nor are required to meet the fmvss. Pretty sure none of them are illegal vehicles either.
"The other case which is going further up the courts they are trying to prove that moped meets the definition of a motor vehicle under federal definitions." Not going to happen either. You can read why here. Or feel free to look it up on wikipedia here. I even link you directly to the federal law section so it's easier for you to find.
"As for the case data I would not be able to send those due to it possibly violating public information requests laws and BPD policies." Trial cases are public records and can be seen online at
https://www.idcourts.us/repository/start.do. Giving out information of trial court cases doesn't violate "public information requests".
"Since the term gas powered bicycle does not exist in Idaho Code or the FMVSS, I would suggest you find a definition in Idaho State code for the type of vehicle you are looking at. " Point of fact, a gas powered bicycle does not have a definition in Idaho. Therefore if there is no law restricting it, then there are no laws about it period. Laws are made to make things illegal, not to make them legal.
If you are going to make such broad and in most cases untrue claims, maybe you need to do more research. Back up your claims with state codes, not just your interpretations. A bicycle does not require a fmvss certification. Putting a motor on it does not make it a motor vehicle. Since there is nothing restricting a gas powered bicycle, there is no law against riding it legally. I only call it a moped because that is the closest category in Idaho law that they fit under.
to Me
I see no reason to continue this discussion as it is becoming a discussion we are too far apart to agree on.
Please direct any further questions and comments to the Boise City PA office.
to Officer
You mean you can provide no evidence to back your claims up with. You make up your own interpretations of the law and when I call you on it, you bail.
There is nothing wrong with having a disagreement. You believe you are right yet provide no facts. I say you are wrong and provide plenty of facts. If you have nothing to offer to contradict what I pointed out, that's fine. At least admit it and not just pout. I expect more from a public figure.
I contacted the Boise police to find their interpretation of the laws. When I asked officer ****** to provide state statutes, he gladly gave me everything he had. I don't like the fact that electric bikes are apparently "motor vehicles", but I would gladly comply with his interpretation. Officer ****** must have been interested in this subject enough that he brought it up with you weeks after I last spoke to him. I have copied him on all of our emails, including this one. I'm sure you two might have something to talk about next time you meet up.
to Me
You are not aplling Idaho coder correctly so I can not help you. You need to convince the PA office you are correct. If you can do that then they will tell Officers not to cite the code. Our discussion is over and I would tell you again to contact them and set up a meeting to show them your research.
