Well..I got pulled over

[fasteddy]

When I bought my eZee hub kit from ebikes.ca in Vancouver they gave me the official stickers in French and English that every ebike has to have to be legal in Canada. Just says your bike was made/converted with government recognized parts not a home made rig.

Daymark is bringing them in from a maker that the Federal Government of Canada has approved as a manufacturer. You woulld think that they would welcome people trying to reduce thier fuel consumption as best they can but once again if the government can't control it, it's all wrong.
If they would allow you built a bike to government specs it would help but they can't even do that. As we have said before there just aren't enough of us to make a difference.
Guess it's easier to control 50 manufacturers than a thousand home builders.

Steve.

 

[biknut]

When I bought my eZee hub kit from ebikes.ca in Vancouver they gave me the official stickers in French and English that every ebike has to have to be legal in Canada. Just says your bike was made/converted with government recognized parts not a home made rig.

Daymark is bringing them in from a maker that the Federal Government of Canada has approved as a manufacturer. You woulld think that they would welcome people trying to reduce thier fuel consumption as best they can but once again if the government can't control it, it's all wrong.
If they would allow you built a bike to government specs it would help but they can't even do that. As we have said before there just aren't enough of us to make a difference.
Guess it's easier to control 50 manufacturers than a thousand home builders.

Steve.

It only takes one person to establish precedent in court, but first that person needs to know what the law really says. In order to do that you have to actually read the statute. Taking for granted what someone tells you is the worst thing you can do.

 

[fasteddy]

Biknut, I'll bring the lawyer and you bring the money.
Not reading what I wrote are you.

Canadian Federal Government Law!!!

The provincial governments can make them tighter to suit thier needs but they can't make them less. Like cars, the Feds make the rules as to what's legal.

Washington D.C. tells Texas. Texas doesn't tell Washington D.C.

Steve.

 

[peter carswell]

speaking of ebikes i have the currie izip package installed on a schwinn but i have modified it and added another 450 watt motor to bring my bike to 900 watts at 24 volts i doubt the cops have the know how and i have never been stopped riding it but my gas bike they have stopped me and ticketed me

 

[Rockenstein]

Doesn't make much sense does it Peter...you get reamed up the wazoo on one but not the other

This whole ebike thing in Ontario is messed up especially with regards to the scooter looking types. To Joe Average car driver you can't really tell an electric powered one from a gas powered one and I've seen people stuck behind an ebike holding up traffic because they were obviously confused as to if they could pass it or not since it looks so much like a typical scooter. Also lately I've seen a few gas powered scooters running around without a licence plate. One guy I caught up with and talked to said hey it looks just like one of those ebikes and the cops don't know the difference since it's so quiet. He even had a "EBIKE" plate where there was supposed to be a licence plate.

 

[peter carswell]

well maybe i should try and pull a fast one myself and put an ebike plate on my gas bike

 

[biknut]

Biknut, I'll bring the lawyer and you bring the money.
Not reading what I wrote are you.

Canadian Federal Government Law!!!

The provincial governments can make them tighter to suit thier needs but they can't make them less. Like cars, the Feds make the rules as to what's legal.

Washington D.C. tells Texas. Texas doesn't tell Washington D.C.

Steve.

Not trying to argue with you, just trying to give you ideas on how to fight for your rights. Possibly you don't care to fight, but others might.

We have laws here in Texas governing Electric bicycles and scooters. Many people confuse these laws, and try to apply them to gas powered bicycles. These laws however make no mention of gas powered bicycles and have no bearing what so ever on them.

In Texas we have a situation where there's no law that directly applies to gas powered bicycles, but different localities try to interpret existing laws with different interpretations. Some have no problem at all, and others claim all are illegal. If you ask what law you're breaking they can't tell you.

So far every time there's a challenge, before it actually gets to trial, the prosecutor drops the charges so no precedent can be set. It you decide to pay a fine without challenge, they take your money. Most people just pay, because they assume the authorities know what they're doing. When it comes to motor assisted bicycles in most cases they don't.

 

[fasteddy]

I know what your saying and believe me when I was younger and thought I could change the world by myself I did my best to try. I found out from my parents being involved in Federal politics that the cure to our problem in both counties is solved in the back rooms of the nations capitals. If you don't have someone in your corner with {a] A ton of money to put in the right pockets or {b] your favorite uncle is head of a commitee with lots of influence, you are really out of luck.
If you can get enough people to make a ruckus and make a politicians life a misery when public opinion swings your way. They and thier party will look at doing something to get rid of your complaints. They will crush you or give in. As for crush I mean they will have the police run everyone off the road and the fines will not be cheap for anyone they catch. Sat in political meetings with my Dad and saw that planned and done. That was in Ontario too.

The best way for us is to form clubs to promote gas and ebikes. Politicians only get elected if the public likes them. What is warmer and fuzzier that a person explaining how thier bike lets them get to thier job that doesn't pay enough to let them drive a car and pay for what they need but they have to ride the back street to hide because the bike isn't legal.
Now the police stop you and thier the bad guys in the publics mind. Courts bust you big time and thier not nice people. They both say that thier just enforcing the law and now the politician is answering questions that they don't want to answer.
Throw in the great gas mileage and the fact that the road damage is less so the tax payers are not paying for the roads to be repaired.
Nobody wants to see some one on welfare because they can't ride a bike to thier job where the bus doesn't go.
Have a rally, invite the local politicians and the media to it and see what happens. You may enjoy the results

Steve.

 

[biknut]

Have a rally, invite the local politicians and the media to it and see what happens. You may enjoy the results

Steve.

What you're talking about has merit, and is a legit strategy. If you have a ticket right now though, you'll probably want to try something a little less long range.

I'd still like to see what statute the authorities are using to say all gas powered motor assisted bicycles are illegal.

In Texas there isn't one, but that doesn't stop some of them from trying to say there is.

Texas probably is full of a bunch of trouble makers like me. We have some of the most active bikers rights groups in the country. We've forced repeal of the motorcycle helmet law 3 times.

 

[fasteddy]

Biknut, if you have that active biker groups behind you you are blessed. Yes, what I'm talking about is very long range if ever but it will stop the false tickets in the end. Meanwhile you are very right about rolling over and giving up.
Takes a lot of work to get together a strong argument and then have to go into court and present it. That's why most people roll over and pay the fine. Then again there are people like yourself who don't give up until the last shot is fired and God bless you for that. Opens up the path for others who aren't so brave.

Steve.

 

[Rockenstein]

In Texas we have a situation where there's no law that directly applies to gas powered bicycles, but different localities try to interpret existing laws with different interpretations. Some have no problem at all, and others claim all are illegal. If you ask what law you're breaking they can't tell you.

We have pretty much the same situation up here in Ontario Canada, you get pulled over and the police officer throws some generic "motor vehicle" offence notices at the rider and hopes they stick. They were pulling the same BS with ebike riders a half dozen or so years ago here in Ontario too. Even though you could purchase and legally ride an ebike in other Canadian provinces Ontario at the time had no definition written into the Highway Traffic Act specifically for them so the police were shoe horning them into the "motor vehicle" definition that was defined and lots of people got screwed. Some beat the offence notices in court, some just paid up and shut up and others, like Peter Carswell, just said F.U to the whole process and went on about their business...lol

 

[fasteddy]

Rockenstein, things haven't changed in Ontario since I started driving in Ontario in 1962.
They throw it at the wall and hope it sticks. I was sure of at least one court date a month and a lot of times more. Think at times they hoped the judges would get pi$$ed at seeing me all the time and lower the boom. Always a chicken crap charge like the headlight were out of alignment. The early version of the ebike capper.
Judge used to blast them for wasting the courts time but they kept it up on a bunch of us.

Steve.

 

[Rockenstein]

I'd still like to see what statute the authorities are using to say all gas powered motor assisted bicycles are illegal.

This is the definition from the Ontario Highway Traffic Act that police are using to describe our modified bicycles when issuing provincial offence notices (tickets).

“motor vehicle” includes an automobile, a motorcycle, a motor-assisted bicycle unless otherwise indicated in this Act, and any other vehicle propelled or driven otherwise than by muscular power, but does not include a street car or other motor vehicle running only upon rails, a power-assisted bicycle, a motorized snow vehicle, a traction engine, a farm tractor, a self-propelled implement of husbandry or a road-building machine; (“véhicule automobile”)

With regards to where the above says "a motor-assisted bicycle unless otherwise indicated in this Act" the Ontario Highway Traffic Act defines a motor-assisted bicycle with the following.

“motor assisted bicycle” means a bicycle,

(a) that is fitted with pedals that are operable at all times to propel the bicycle,

(b) that weighs not more than fifty-five kilograms,

(c-) that has no hand or foot operated clutch or gearbox driven by the motor and transferring power to the driven wheel,

(d) that has an attached motor driven by electricity or having a piston displacement of not more than fifty cubic centimetres, and

(e) that does not have sufficient power to enable the bicycle to attain a speed greater than 50 kilometres per hour on level ground within a distance of 2 kilometres from a standing start; (“cyclomoteur”)

Now the stupid thing is you can't register a modified bicycle as a motor-assisted bicycle in Ontario because the government says it does not meet the specifications for one and if you go to the government offices and try they will tell you this and shoo you out the door rather quickly. One time when I spoke to them in person about it, with my bike parked by the window so the official I was talking to could see it, they went so far as to tell me that as far as they are concerned my modified bicycle was still just a bicycle and I need not be concerned about registering it

The Ontario Highway Traffic Act defines a bicycle with the following.

“bicycle” includes a tricycle, a unicycle and a power-assisted bicycle but does not include a motor-assisted bicycle; (“bicyclette”)

Does a dog wag it's tail or does a tail wag it's dog

 

[biknut]

This is the definition from the Ontario Highway Traffic Act that police are using to describe our modified bicycles when issuing provincial offence notices (tickets).



With regards to where the above says "a motor-assisted bicycle unless otherwise indicated in this Act" the Ontario Highway Traffic Act defines a motor-assisted bicycle with the following.



Now the stupid thing is you can't register a modified bicycle as a motor-assisted bicycle in Ontario because the government says it does not meet the specifications for one and if you go to the government offices and try they will tell you this and shoo you out the door rather quickly. One time when I spoke to them in person about it, with my bike parked by the window so the official I was talking to could see it, they went so far as to tell me that as far as they are concerned my modified bicycle was still just a bicycle and I need not be concerned about registering it

The Ontario Highway Traffic Act defines a bicycle with the following.



Does a dog wag it's tail or does a tail wag it's dog

That looks pretty comprehensive. Are there any brand of piston, motor assisted bicycles that are approved of by the government?

If not it looks like they've written the law specifically to ban them.

 

[fasteddy]

When I was searching for a way out so I could find a way to build a gas powered bike I hired a family friend who is a lawyer. He has a Masters degree in law so he is no slouch and his findings were that no gas motors can be put on a bicycle frame by a private individual.
Yes the laws were written to ban them after the Feds tested them out in a federal lab.

Closest we can get is a moped that has been built by an approved manufacturer listed with the Canadian government. If it is built starting in 1988 it has to have a 17 digit serial number assigned by the maker at the factory and placed on a tag attached to the frame of the moped.
I spent weeks on the computer and a lot of money and this is what I found. This is at the federal level and my home province of British Columbia. Ontario did a 3 year study of motored bikes and then allowed ebikes to be driven on the road. They must be built by an aproved builder or with approved kits from sellers who can supply the approval stickers in French and English. Federal law forbids gas bikes anywhere in Canada.The province of Alberta said they could be driven on their roads and then reversed that very quickly since they violated the Federal laws that says the provinces can tailor the laws to suit thier needs so long they work within the Federal guide lines.

I have chanted this like a mantra over and over again but no one believes me until they get caught. Then they are shocked that it happened.
People have been busted here in B.C. and the fine were huge according to what I was told. Around $5,000. Probably points on your drivers license as well.

Steve.

 

[biknut]

What's the governments reason for banning gas motors? Environmental?

Well look at the bright side. Pot's just a slap on the wrist lol.

 

[Rockenstein]

That looks pretty comprehensive. Are there any brand of piston, motor assisted bicycles that are approved of by the government?

If not it looks like they've written the law specifically to ban them.

Well if your talking typical factory built step thru "mopeds" like Tomos, Puch, Mobylette, Solex etc yea sure you can get them registered, plated and insured here in Ontario without a hitch. The thing to keep in mind tho is that the brands I mentioned were manufactured and imported into Canada meeting the federal standards and specifications for a moped that were in place at that time. In Ontario a motor-assisted bicycle, as defined by the highway traffic act, is a moped as per the federal standards for a moped that were in place at the time of it's manufacture. Ontario does not consider our modified bicycles to be "mopeds" tho and as such you can't register a modified bicycle as one or anything else for that matter.

So...

The argument, or question, is if a modified bicycle is not a motor assisted bicycle as defined in the highway traffic act and can't ever be registered as one then what is it? Is it right to lick and stick "motor vehicle" related charges on the riders of modified bicycles when the government says modified bicycles can't be registered as a motor vehicle? With government employees, and or officials, saying our modified bicycles can't be registered as a motor vehicle they are in not so many words saying they are not motor vehicles. Very valid legal argument when it comes to dealing with motor vehicle related offence notices issued to you by a police officer.

Suggestion...

Everyone here in Ontario that is riding a modified bicycle should take a witness, or a spy cam, to an MTO office and attempt to get your modified bicycle registered as a motor vehicle of some kind and then keep the results of that attempt in a safe place so as to defend yourself against any "motor vehicle" offence notices that are issued to you.

.

 

[fasteddy]

From what I read yes and the safety aspect of a home built vehicle. Google CH80 bicycle engines by Chris Hill and see what happened to him.

The Insurance Corporation of British Columbia and Ford Motors were in on the decision to ban them as advisors.

Ford was building the Think Ebike at the time and wanted to see the world on thier bikes I'm sure.

British Columbia is a self insuring province. We buy our insurance and licence plates from an insurance company or from the province directly.The insurance companies act as agents for the province. Works out pretty well unless you have an injury. How can you you complain about the province not paying you, to the province not paying you. You have to call Dewey, Screwum and Howe.

I.C.B.C. saw a chance to pinch off a problem with injury claims by pushing the Feds to ban the gas bikes. There are also very strong California like enviromental laws here. Ebike laws are pretty generous as are the moped laws. We have the best weather in Canada year around in the part of B.C. that I live in so you see a lot of ebikes and mopeds. Gas is also about $4.80 a US gal so that is a good reason also.

It seems from what I read that the Canadian government put bike kits together and tested then at a government lab and didn't like the test results so they decided to ban them out right. I'm sure the moped and ebike makers were sprinkling money through the halls of power to make sure that they went away also.

Steve.

 

[biknut]

From what I read yes and the safety aspect of a home built vehicle. Google CH80 bicycle engines by Chris Hill and see what happened to him.

The Insurance Corporation of British Columbia and Ford Motors were in on the decision to ban them as advisors.

Ford was building the Think Ebike at the time and wanted to see the world on thier bikes I'm sure.

British Columbia is a self insuring province. We buy our insurance and licence plates from an insurance company or from the province directly.The insurance companies act as agents for the province. Works out pretty well unless you have an injury. How can you you complain about the province not paying you, to the province not paying you. You have to call Dewey, Screwum and Howe.

I.C.B.C. saw a chance to pinch off a problem with injury claims by pushing the Feds to ban the gas bikes. There are also very strong California like enviromental laws here. Ebike laws are pretty generous as are the moped laws. We have the best weather in Canada year around in the part of B.C. that I live in so you see a lot of ebikes and mopeds. Gas is also about $4.80 a US gal so that is a good reason also.

It seems from what I read that the Canadian government put bike kits together and tested then at a government lab and didn't like the test results so they decided to ban them out right. I'm sure the moped and ebike makers were sprinkling money through the halls of power to make sure that they went away also.

Steve.

This I can believe. A good reason Obama care has to go too. When the government has to pay it's good reason not to allow anything.

 

[Rockenstein]

Federal law forbids gas bikes anywhere in Canada.

Do we need to go down that road again? That statement is complete BS Steve and there is nothing in any of our federal laws, standards, Acts, specifications or whatever that says anything about what we build and ride. I challenge you to provide us all with any information from the Canadian federal government that specifically says putting an internal combustion engine on a bicycle is forbidden.


Also...

Mopeds (aka motor assisted bicycles) are not even on the feds books anymore and I've posted that very real information, and links to it, on here more than once. The federal safety standards and specifications for mopeds and motor driven cycles were repealed in 1988 and the same or similar motor vehicles that were imported into Canada after 1988 were imported as "Limited Speed Motorcycles" and as per the federal specifications for limited speed motorcycles were and are not even required to have pedals!


--------------
Edit:

I.C.B.C. saw a chance to pinch off a problem with injury claims by pushing the Feds to ban the gas bikes.

This is sounding like one heck of a conspiracy story Steve but like most conspiracy stories there is little truth to it considering there really is no Canada wide blanket ban on gas powered bikes or the engine kits we all use.

.