Velocars and other interesting vehicles.

[Ludwig II]

One alternative to Dacron or wood or metal skinning comes from Velorex in Czechoslovakia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velorex

Electric vehicles: is it considered to be petrol powered when an on board generator charges the vehicle when it is stationary?

And does that change if the generator is carried in a detachable trailer?

 

[fasteddy]

Ludwig II,
From what I've read in the laws here in Canada it's ok as long as you are stopped to charge the battery. It's illegal to have the generator hooked up and running if you are moving.
They claim it's for the enviroment.

Steve.

 

[Ludwig II]

I see. So, logically, pollution is ok if you're not going anywhere, even if it's more than just using the fuel to do the journey.

Don't you just love politicians?

 

[fasteddy]

While I was working on making engine mounts for Silverbears 1934 Egine so he can fit the Villiers engine into it, my mind was wandering about looking for parts for the velo. The wandering mind thing was a little scary at first but it always seems to find it's way back to the job at hand and I've grown used to it doing so.

It did find so interesting things. The frame will be 2" angle iron. We have a used iron yard near us so I'll try them first since I agree with our Intrepid Wheelwoman that recycled materials are the sensible way to go and help take a small burden from the earth.

The floor will be a 2'x8', 3/4" sheet of mahogany plywood that my brother has saved for years. Kids a pack rat. There is some mahogany door and window casings left that I used to make the sidecar body and I'm hoping that the house wreckers has some more that they have salvaged. If not I may have to use new wood. No plan is perfect.

I'll cruise around Vancouvers alleyways and see if there are any shipping pallets that have a 3/4" thick top instead of the usual thin wood. This will be used for the ribs for the body that will give it the shape and something to nail the body covering to. If I can find any mahogany or some other interesting wood pallets that are long enough they may become the body covering instead of the door casings.

The nice part is we have a full wood working shop for our use so any rough wood that I can get I'll be able to mill into useable lumber. If I can't, I have a few other ideas that I may fall back on such as a metal body or a canvas covered plywood one that would be painted. I know where my brother keeps his canvas drop clothes that he uses when he paints. It's about time they were recycled.

September will be a very busy month for sure.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Hi BC,
Thought I'd answer your PM here on the thread so others can give you information as well as the bit I can add. You don't need to worry about hi jacking this thread. Our Intrepid Wheelwoman started it as a place to exchange ideas.

I don't have any plans set down on paper unfortunately. I do make a paper/cardboard pattern so I can make sure that it will work out as to the shape I want. The poster board at the dollar store is cheaper than wood.

My build will be a single seater but to include two people side by side as you are going to build I would make it with a separate pedal systems on each side so if one person wishes to stop pedaling for a while they are not having to ghost pedal when both sets of pedals are moving. A matching pair of pedals along with the down and seat tubes cut off the donor bikes would be my start. If you can't find a matching pair of bikes the chain rings should have the same number of teeth. I'd weld them to a piece of steel and then to the frame.

I would run the chains back to a jack shaft going across the frame from side to side. The jack shaft would run in pillow block bushings or better yet ball bearings that can be found on go kart sites or Northern Tools site.
Atomic Zombie Bicycle site and many bicycle suppliers have bolt on fittings for free wheels to be treaded onto that would fit the jack shaft and that way allow one of the people pedaling to stop while the other person continues pedaling.

For the rear end I would go to Northern Tool and purchase a rear end from the go kart page that has a differential in it. That allows you to anchor both wheels to the axle and turn corners without one wheel binding. They are around $120 plus shipping unless you have a Northern Tool store near you.
From the jack shaft back to the differential I'd run one chain to the sprocket on the differential. On the other side of the differential you can add a disc brake. From what I've seen you remove the bolts from the differential slide the sprocket from one side and the disc from the other and replace the bolts to hold them on but you will have to double check this to be sure. I believe they sell disc and sprocket mounts for the axle as well.
Worksman cycles sells wheels for their trikes and front wheels for scaled down antique replica cars so you can put the axle on one side. I'll look up the information and add it shortly.

Mine being a three wheeler will have a moped rear wheel mounted in the rear and be driven that way. One side by pedals (very rarely) and the other either by electric motor or a small gas engine.

If you motorize in the future you should be aware that any 4 wheeled vehicle that has a power source other than human power suddenly becomes a motor vehicle and is now required to have everything a car has.
Three wheels and human power with a 50cc or under, depending where you live, gas motor or a 750W (U.S. or 500W (Canada) electric motor is legal and is considered a bicycle.

Hope this helps. Please feel free to ask if you need something clarified as to what I'm talking about.

Steve.

 

[bchowk]

Thanks Steve....That is very helpful. That differential axle is quite a find. adding a disk brake in the center makes everything a lot cleaner too.

I suppose I'm going to have to take a close look at some tricycle wheel set ups. If I have a go cart slip differential in there, then both tricycle wheels will need to be driven wheels on the axle. Something I'd rather have anyway, awesome.

Right after I PM'd you I figured out the free wheel adapter. Place those on the jackshaft.....It's all starting to make sense now...

gee whiz. If I chose to motorize it later, doesn't seem like it'd be that hard, just run the motor on to a sprocket on the jackshaft and viola!...cool...that would be an interesting discussion with the DMV.

I wonder what the rules are about golf carts? That would be the closest analog, right?...interesting

 

[fasteddy]

B.C.
Some states like Arizona are cool with golf carts and maybe Florida but most of them aren't as far as I know.
I have a whole lot of information from a replica car site about wheels from Worksman Cycle like I said and as soon as I can get some one to show me how to get it over here from the site it's on I will. Just looked it up and it has information on thier front and rear wheels for trikes and the cars. They make a wheel with really heavy bearings that take a 20mm axle though they call it 3/4". They talk about how it's a little loose on the 3/4" axle so that sounds to me like 20mm which it the standard bike hub size.
They come in 20" or 26" rims and I'm sure that they will sell them in 24 " as well if you were to ask.

I would have used them but there is no way to put brakes on the front wheels so I bought hubs with single or dual discs from England. A chap over there makes them and I think they were something like $140 a pair landed here with the disc brake mount on one side. Add rims and spokes and you are probably up to what Worksman Cycles wants. You can see them on the Indian tadpole thread in the trikes section.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Ya, the lights just came on. We're in the trike thread. Gotta get a better brand of tea I guess. Darn it.

Here is the Horseless Carriage Replica news letter with all the information in it. If you scroll down some more they have a good article on the Ackermann Theory for steering.

Steve.

http://horselesscarriagereplicas.com/files/Volume2issue2.pdf

 

[RicksRides]

they are relaxed here about out of the norm vehichles for the most part. 90% of the time im stopped is to see "whats he built now" Followed by a "Is it legal, Rick?" Anything can be legal here with a slow moving vehichle triangle. It doesnt matter how you power it.

 

[JonnyR]

i like this amateur electric car build it has a mustache http://youtu.be/PCSNCs7bwCw

 

[fasteddy]

B.C.
Here is a good site for trike and 4 wheel pedal car parts if your going to build one

Steve.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...l4HoDg&usg=AFQjCNFrKa6Drqzb0ZfON_dWq400VrF1EA

 

[bchowk]

Thanks for the links and info Steve.....That article about steering geometry was interesting. Not entirely sure I have wrapped my head around WHY Ackerman angle works, but it totally makes sense how the wheels need to move in different arcs and I found the method for setting it when putting together the front end. So, cool and thanks. Would have never occured to me.

Right now I'm surfing the web for go kart and pedicab parts, collecting ideas and having a lot of fun imagining what I COULD do with parts that I can pretty readily get or make.

Currently I am leaning toward not having a single rear axle at all. Instead I'm thinking the velocar would be two recumbant bicycles with independant rear wheels and gears. They would just share a common steering mechanism. Seems like this way my wife and my pedaling can be completely independant, we can both contribute to the load (at the pavement) at whatever speed and gear that is comfortable....like this guy did

http://www.elkinsdiy.com/mochet-velocycle-pedal-car/

This would all be great. Relatively easy with some free spinning wagon wheels up front and would certainly keep me out of trouble with Johnny Law....However, this is motorbicycling.com, right? What if I put that Northern tool differential axle UP FRONT? With some u joints and steering knuckes, a little harbor freight motor and a CVT driving it....heck, I could even build TWO interchangable front ends, one for pure pedal power and one with the engine on it.

Wouldn't really look anything like it, but let's say "inspired by" this pic

Dreaming is FUN....hoping I can get my stuff together and actually BUILD IT! I know Santa is bringing me a welder. Gotta build SOMETHING with it, right?

 

[fasteddy]

Hi B.C.
You could indeed make a front wheel drive velo like the Morgan. McMaster-Carr has universal joints and with a little planning it would be a one of a kind ride.

Not inexpensive due to be being so complex in design but doable. Add a forward and reverse box in between the motor and the differential and really astound the watchers as you fearlessly pull into a parking place and back out afterward. Go for the gold and add a 50cc motor with a transmission. Of course the gold will be coming out of your pocket when the police figure it out but no one found glory sitting on a sofa at home.

I'm not much of a one for drawing up plans and more of a back of an envelope doodler and then off to the metal warehouse and after you spent a couple of hundred dollars on metal, it's really amazing just how creative you can be. Then when your wife finds out you spent that much, you naturally get even more creative.

If you look at Barelyawake's tadpole trike with both electric and gas power drives you will see the ultimate in creativity. I'm sure he drew up a set of plans but as always you wind up changing things and plans end up being just a guide line. When you look at all the other great bikes being built on the forum by guys that don't have anything but a desire to have something different it will inspire you as it has me. If they have done it so can you and I. The key is doing it.

Here is a 1912 Bedelia or as I refer to it, the flying bathtub, from France that could work into what you were talking about. Add a boat tail to hide the single wheel and your off.

Take note of the two spools on either side of the radiator. That's part of the wire and spool steering like we put on the soapbox cars that we built as kids.

Steve.


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1784276&d=1352357515

 

[silverbear]

I like that flying bathtub and the body does look like an old time copper bathtub. I wonder if it was? Now that's what I call a ratrod, one step above a soap box derby contraption. I don't know how fast I'd want to go in it. It brings to mind Ralph Nador's book "Unsafe At Any Speed". What a hoot!
SB

 

[fasteddy]

Silverbear,
That is a cycle car and was powered by a motorcycle engine. They were made by a company in France as a light road car to beat the road taxes that were charged by weight and engine horse power.
A small step above tricars in my book and not nearly as much fun. Here's a photo and a video of that Bedilia at a hill climb.

Steve.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...84CIAg&usg=AFQjCNEHFqhprbIGOjsa_fT069iou_447A

 

[fasteddy]

Here's one with more upscale body work.

Steve.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...qoCIBw&usg=AFQjCNFvQ2WJt4Cs1y3D1-LBZxgNDUr43w

 

[fasteddy]

Here is how they came to be built. Kind of sounds like a Silverbear and Fasteddy go to the Ely town dump and look what we found, build.

Steve

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...4IDQAQ&usg=AFQjCNHfZ1x2vTOrc2Gl6GAHI9B83aoBnw

 

[bchowk]

I love it!!! As it is, that thing is all go cart (no pedaling) couple interesting things to think about (for me). It would be narrow enough we could still stay in bike lanes. I suppose I'd start by thinking of it as a recumbant tandem bicycle, with 4 wheels and a water trough body. For some reason I want to change it and put the engine in the rear, but up front without the shroud would give that poormans' morgan look....LOL....WOW! You guys are a bad influence...

I do love the steering set up though...look closely; the axle doesn't turn (like those wood go-karts); it still has a drag link and pitman arms. The cable must pull the drag link from side to side...interesting....I've messed with cable and pulley steering on boats to suprisingly good effect....I think using something like that on a velocar could be slick! I could salvage a boat steering shaft; helm and all. SWEET! Could mount the steering wheel wherever I wanted and at whatever angle....

Check out the spring loaded front end. I had already found some spindle brackets with springs on a karting site, similar idea. Would give just a little cushon on the front wheels.

Hmmmm, I'm sort of attached to a third "jump seat" for the kiddo. I'm thinking LOW gearing; nothing fast but will haul the family and a picinic basket just fast enough that Daddy doesn't fall asleep. I suppose what is shaping up in my mind is turning out to be not so much this or that but a sort of frankenmash of ideas pulled off of a few of these "velocars and other interesting vehicles"....

Thanks for sharing folks!

 

[fasteddy]

B.C.,
Your getting closer to the brink. Turn back while there's still time

Here's the front end you were talking about. There is no reason to make a copy of any one car. It's your to build the way you think it should be built.

Steve.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=950241&d=1271112901

 

[Allen_Wrench]

I like that flying bathtub and the body does look like an old time copper bathtub. I wonder if it was? Now that's what I call a ratrod, one step above a soap box derby contraption. I don't know how fast I'd want to go in it. It brings to mind Ralph Nador's book "Unsafe At Any Speed". What a hoot!
SB

Hey SB, did I ever tell you about a Corvair I saw at a dealership here years ago, near Prospect & Emerson. It had a Ralph Nader-for-President bumper sticker on it. The irony had me laughing until the tears started rolling.