Flyer Production

[sportscarpat]

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for posting the pics. It was a good show, lots of people. My cruiser even won a trophy. The Vintage Electric guys were right next to us and I rode one of their bikes around. Very quick bike. I would say all classes of bikes were represented from the classics, to BMX, modern cruisers, low riders. Definitely lot's to see.

 

[sportscarpat]

So here is something I have been working on for awile. I do a lot of Shimano coaster brake bikes. It's a decent hub and works with my sprocket adapter, but I have been wanting a bigger better coaster brake. Bought a Sturmey Archer S1C which is much larger than the Shimano hub. Finally have the whole system mocked up. This hub is 125mm spacing and required a new design huge sprocket adapter to fit the fat body of the hub. My new adapter is an enlarged version of my three bolt draw to center design.

Here it is.

Sturmey Archer Sprocket Adapter by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

I plan to test this out on a fairly stock GX200 build. Here is another picture.

Sturmey Archer Sprocket Adapter by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

 

[sportscarpat]

Here is the rest of the drive system minus chains. The clutch shown in this picture is the new 3D Motorsport manual clutch. I made the stainless sheet metal cable/clutch bracket as it also acts as my front engine mount. This was necessary as I run the GX200 vertical so the 3D supplied bracket wouldn't work in my application. Clutch feeds my reduction drive, which in turn feeds power to the coaster brake rear wheel.

Manual Clutch by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

The rest of the bike is a bare bones, nothing fancy test mule Sportsman 200 cruiser. It does have a front disc brake and springer fork. Motor for testing is bone stock. Once I torture the drive train and bike in general and am satisfied it's durable I can build a proper hot rodded engine. This bike represents the first time I have built a 200cc bike that will be pedal start.

Manual Clutch by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

 

[sportscarpat]

Close up picture of the clutch.

Manual Clutch by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

 

[indian22]

Glad to see both the enlarged hub adaptor and manual clutch incorporated in a build Pat. Both concepts fill a real need & using the 200 engine will offer a realistic test of both. I've been excited about the clutch from jump & now am hopeful that this works out well as testing will verify or not. The benefits of pedal start, coupled with compression braking would be reason enough to go this route in my thinking & a no brainer at the price, if it's a durable design. Thanks for posting this innovative build! Rick C.

 

[Robertzep]

I just received my Panther tank today! OMG, this tank is perfect. I can attest to the quality of workmanship that goes into making these. It is a thing of beauty. I will be ordering more parts from Pat!

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Hoping Pat will chime in too. On 3D Motorsports web site they feature a Sportsman Flyer powered by a Honda 50cc, with a Q-matic transmission that 3D modified using their clutch as the out drive.
The owner is Roger who resides in Texas. I asked 3D for a quote and got a very prompt reply that they would do the conversion for $500.00. Add to that $300.00 for the Q-matic ,that I already have.
Pat Dolan's complete drive system starts to look like a bargain. I would like to hook up with this Roger, to get his input. I am trying to complete a quality build to last me. I already have a 49cc 4s Huffy Davidson kit bike, so the Sportsman Flyer 80 is intended to be my masters piece. All help will be greatly appreciated.

 

[sportscarpat]

Keith,
That tank looks great in your original paint Panther frame. I have always wanted to do a patina matched paint on a Panther tank using the available stencile kits to match the Schwinn tank paint jobs. Eventually I will. Also want to use a frame stincle kit to match your paint job on a Flyer frame.
Tom,
I am a horse power guy at heart and can't help but want to add as much power as I can to anything I build. I think the 49cc engines just wouldn't have enough power. Adding a h.p. robbing drive systen like the Q-matic would just make it worse in my opinion. You would be taking top end power to help the bottom end. Not a good trade off. Just my opinion.

 

[indian22]

Couldn't agree more Pat. I'd think a stock 80 cc would be minimal with the Q matic drive for adequate cruising speed. Using a reduction drive is in my opinion a better option coupled with the 50 cc or for that matter 80 cc engines.

Have you heard if 3 D has the 1" drive clutch ready for market? Rick C.

 

[sportscarpat]

I don't know what 3D has going on with product development but they do seem to quickly respond to my emails. Maybe ask them directly. My approach on performance is to pick a motor with enough torque to pull away from the line comfortably. Once through this speed and rpm range I like to set gearing for best cruising speed. If I have a motor with enough power to push the bike beyond my intended top speed, say 45 mph, then I gear limit top speed and use the excess power back at the bottom end. What this means on an 80cc four stroke is max rpm speed is say 45-48 mph and on a 212 it's about 58 mph.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Like I hinted in my last email to you Pat, your reduction drive coupled with a 3d motorsports clutch is on my to do list for 2017. The idea of pedal starting has me stoked.
Your one-way bearing drive is the way to go. I can rig the Q-matic in a trail mini bike I have, a one wheel drive Rokon sorta.

 

[sportscarpat]

One way bearing?
Might have the manual clutch bike running next week. Basically done except for an exhaust pipe.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Tell me if I am wrong Pat, but I can't think of another way to pedal drive the right hand chain and allow the pedal shaft to freewheel driven by the engine the well proven Sprag clutch.
If I guessed wrong it will not be the first or last time.
Your set up of the manual clutch is a much awaited development Pat.
Taking Sportsman Flyer to the next technological stage. Please let us know the results of your tests. I for one am expecting great things from your efforts.
Regards,
Tom

 

[sportscarpat]

To me it's as much a test of the clutch as it is the Sturmey Archer hub and sprocket adapter. I hope the hub can handle life behind a 200cc motor and the sprocket adapter can handle the potential shock load of a manual clutch. And of course pedal starting. Geeze, that's a lot that needs to go right!

 

[indian22]

Pat you mentioned in an earlier post that the S.A. hub had a flat center section which tapered towards the spokes. Will your adapter design allow much adjustment movement to locate the perfect sprocket/chain line? The larger diameter SC-1 hub will of course offer significantly more clamping surface if the hub flat is at least as wide or wider than the clamping width of your standard 110 mm hub adapter...which hopefully will prevent the new adapter from slipping under the added and sudden application of torque. Your original design 110 mm adapter hasn't slipped during the last 6 months of riding my 12 hp 5 speed Simplex with a 56 tooth final sprocket so I can't imagine your new adapter not holding under the load of a stock 200.

I did e mail 3 D about the 1" PTO clutch & am awaiting a reply. Best of luck testing the new parts applications on your Sportsman. Rick C.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

I agree Pat, multiple devices mostly engineered to the same strain level(bicycle), to meet engine output. The GoKarter's as far as I have read. make the 3D clutch strong enough to sustain the forces developed by a motored bicycle. Karts are much heavier. The Sturmey Archer coaster hub is probably the singular unknown. We adapt systems with out empirical data.
If it doesn't break it must be good.
I flew Ultralights, everyone is a test pilot.
Regards,
Tom

 

[sportscarpat]

Pat you mentioned in an earlier post that the S.A. hub had a flat center section which tapered towards the spokes. Will your adapter design allow much adjustment movement to locate the perfect sprocket/chain line? The larger diameter SC-1 hub will of course offer significantly more clamping surface if the hub flat is at least as wide or wider than the clamping width of your standard 110 mm hub adapter...which hopefully will prevent the new adapter from slipping under the added and sudden application of torque. Your original design 110 mm adapter hasn't slipped during the last 6 months of riding my 12 hp 5 speed Simplex with a 56 tooth final sprocket so I can't imagine your new adapter not holding under the load of a stock 200.

I did e mail 3 D about the 1" PTO clutch & am awaiting a reply. Best of luck testing the new parts applications on your Sportsman. Rick C.

Hi Rick,
It's reasuring to know the abuse you are putting your sprocket adapter through. I haven't heard of one of mine breaking. This new hub is larger diameter and does have a flat center section. This required a slightly narrower adapter and the hub set at 125mm spacing. I haven't calculated the clamping area but should. There is not much side to side adjustment so its designed at specifically 125mm spacing with my motor side standard spacing. Sprocket is a 48t on the adapter.

 

[sportscarpat]

I agree Pat, multiple devices mostly engineered to the same strain level(bicycle), to meet engine output. The GoKarter's as far as I have read. make the 3D clutch strong enough to sustain the forces developed by a motored bicycle. Karts are much heavier. The Sturmey Archer coaster hub is probably the singular unknown. We adapt systems with out empirical data.
If it doesn't break it must be good.
I flew Ultralights, everyone is a test pilot.
Regards,
Tom

Hi Tom,
An ultralight pilot? Very cool. I flew gliders, you know, sailplanes.
I agree to build to the application at hand. Breaking gets expensive. The hubs are heavily built. You don't want to change the axle as it isnt a standard threaded axle. The axle has a groove and internal snap ring. Anyway I set to 125mm instead of 135mm.

 

[sportscarpat]

Lets see if this video link works. Demo of clutch operation while on build stand.

Manual Clutch Demo by Pat Dolan, on Flickr

 

[indian22]

Hi Rick,
It's reassuring to know the abuse you are putting your sprocket adapter through. I haven't heard of one of mine breaking. This new hub is larger diameter and does have a flat center section. This required a slightly narrower adapter and the hub set at 125 mm spacing. I haven't calculated the clamping area but should. There is not much side to side adjustment so its designed at specifically 125 mm spacing with my motor side standard spacing. Sprocket is a 48 t on the adapter.

At seventy years of age I still pull the wheel at times, but won't be breaking your hub adapter...of that I'm certain! I pulled up the Sturmey info and it really looks an excellent candidate for testing & I'm hoping for a coaster brake hub that offers more strength & improved stopping power especially when coupled with your new hub adapter to the higher torque motors. Are you planning to offer a laced wheel with the S1C Sturmey hub & adapter at some future date?

I totally understand staying with a standard spacing for all your drives.

Looking forward to your success on this and the electra project as well.

Rick C.