Yeah the minds will be changed all right, as soon as they open up that electric bill and see it is over $500 bucks! They will be like DAMNED and I paid extra for this???
You really dont have a clue about electrics Scottmanesis
cost less than 10 cents to charge electric bike from flat
to full, would take a dollar maybe 2 for an electric car.
You also that far off the mark with your comment
"it still takes the same amount of fossil fuels to produce the electricity to the house they are plugging it into"
It takes far less than it does to get the gas to the pumps you put in your car, thats if the power stations are coal or oil fed. There are more and more wind and hydro power stations, the people in Canada would relate to the low cost of power i'm sure.
I would do some reading about electric powered vehicles before posting again if i were you, very little of what you have said thus far is even remotely correct.
I will agree with one thing you have said, the range is the major issue, but this has been improving in just the last 3 years i have been involved in the electric scene. Nano-tech lipos being the latest big thing, as battery tech advances so will the mileage per charge...
Not sure why the discussion has moved to electric cars anywayz seeing the title of this thread is "Why buy an slectric bicycle" I think electric bikes at this point in time are the only electrics that can get both range and decent speed with current battery tech and am quite open about this on the Endless Sphere forums, i don't use electric because its green, i'm no environmentalist I have owned some nasty V8s and some equally nasty two stroke motorcross bikes, but the FACT of the matter is an electric bicycle has the ability to out accelerate and get higher top speeds than these junk china motors and the quality morini motors easily! My bike is considered moderately powered and has over 10hp, you think electrics are slow go have a look at some electric bike videos on Endless Sphere, particularly recumpence and Doctorbass.
I know its pointless arguing with someone thats got a one track mind and refuses to listen to facts, but i thought i would give it one shot, hoping you may listen and do some actual research on the matter rather than regurgitating personal opinions of other one track minded 'gas only guys' as fm2200 putz it.... I think you will be quite surprised if youdo look at the facts of electric power and the running costs of electric vehicles, not only the cost of electricity but the rest of the vehicle, theres only one moving part in an electric motor, not alot to go wrong and when it does its sure as **** cheaper to rebuild than a ICE...
KiM
Well right off the bat, you said my range was BS.. That didn't sound like a discussion to me... At least not a mature one..
You didn't ask any questions or broughtt up any discussion points.. Nor did you have any discussion after I had explained my range.
You didn't ask any questions or broughtt up any discussion points.. Nor did you have any discussion after I had explained my range.
Wasting your time my friend, he is typical of many on this site and motoredbikes.com when it comes to electrics, they all spout the same garbage unsupported by any actual facts, Heaven forbid there might be something better than their beloved china gurl motors :-S There will surely be a moderator along shortly to shut this thread and/or completely delete it.
scottmanesis above post is also typical, rather than link us all to reputable sources to support the statements he initial made and continue the 'discussion' we are having he lashes out, whats your next move scottmanesis? telling us all how good my mother was in the sack last night?
Want a discussion scottmanesis? the Scientific America educate yourself on the topic first then
maybe we can, as of now, there's nothing you have said that is worthy of discussion its all regurgitated dribble you have read here by other equally less educated individuals on the topic of electric vehicles.
KiM
A side by side comparison of a gas bike and an electric bike isn't very flattering to the Ebike. Using my bike as an example
65 lb total weight
30 mph top speed
60 mile range on 1/2 gallon
1 minute recharge time
$552 total cost.
Right now I don't see any way for a Ebike to compete without some kind of legal mandate.
Wel, let's say your in Florida...
Gas bike = Register as Moped.
Register = $$
30mph = ride on the road, not bicycle lane.
Gas now is $3.50 gal so for my .32c in electric, I get almost the same distance. (Plus, I can recharge for free, wherever there is an outside outlet. (Ex. Starbucks)
Now say you need to do that once a day.. The price is 10x's mine. After a year, that would be $1000 or so compared to my $100.
Now, do you really need to go 120miles AND STILL KEEP on going all day?
I can take maybe 50miles at one time and need a (buttocks) rest.
My recharge time may be at that point 1.5 hours, but no worries even after only a 50 mile ride, if I need too.
(Starbucks is awesome, free wi-fi, coffee, etc.. Did I mention free recharge?
)Oh yeah, if you're using a two-stroke you need oil too.
There's about 500 more reasons I could go into where ultimately my price of bike outbeats a gas bike.
There is a difference between a "leisure vehicle" and a vehicle that you use to go places and get things done. An electric bicycle that goes 17 mph might be fine in the city where you have a short commute but in the country a bike that can average 30 mph is essential. I bolted an expansion chamber on to my HT and it can now cruise at 30 mph on the flats. On hills, my speed rarely drops below 25 mph.
Additionally, at 25-30 mph I get roughly 80 mpg since my engine runs well with a very small carburetor main jet (.64mm). Here in rural Georgia, gas is about 2.95 a gallon and the police don't bother us motorbikers even if we use loud exhausts.
I don't ride very far each day, but every day I enjoy the ability to check my gas tank and know that I have enough to get me where I want to go. Gas is more expensive per gallon but the fact remains that gas has a much higher energy density than batteries. 1lb of gas will get you much farther than 1lb of batteries.
Finally, batteries wear out over time. Slowly but surely, batteries are unable to hold the charge that they originally did. Electric bikes have their uses, however I firmly believe that gas powered bikes are far more economical and useful for most riders. The most efficient 2 stroke engines can extract more than 10 hp from a 50cc cylinder...
Additionally, at 25-30 mph I get roughly 80 mpg since my engine runs well with a very small carburetor main jet (.64mm). Here in rural Georgia, gas is about 2.95 a gallon and the police don't bother us motorbikers even if we use loud exhausts.
I don't ride very far each day, but every day I enjoy the ability to check my gas tank and know that I have enough to get me where I want to go. Gas is more expensive per gallon but the fact remains that gas has a much higher energy density than batteries. 1lb of gas will get you much farther than 1lb of batteries.
Finally, batteries wear out over time. Slowly but surely, batteries are unable to hold the charge that they originally did. Electric bikes have their uses, however I firmly believe that gas powered bikes are far more economical and useful for most riders. The most efficient 2 stroke engines can extract more than 10 hp from a 50cc cylinder...
You may want to read through the threads as you are mixing together posts from different people. I never said your range was BS, that was somebody else. Check yourself
Regurgitated dribble?? First off I have not read ANYTHING on this forum about electric bikes until this thread. My comments really had little to do with electric bikes at all other than I believe it is the wrong direction to go IF "being green" is your goal due to the fact the batteries are toxic waste when your done with them. I also mentioned to rising cost of home electricity in most cities making the electric car kind of useless as they cost 2-3 times more than a gas car plus the high electric bill not to mention the pollution typically created by coal plants plus the transport of the coal to the plants by the trains etc does not really make it enviro friendly when you look at the big picture....just like the recycling hoax.
All we all really need is Stan Myers water car that converts tap water into Hydrogen, but big oil will NEVER let that happen.
You both are mixing my comments with other comments and getting all uptight about nothing. Enjoy your e-mobile, I really could care less. I can see talking to you e-bike dudes is kind of like talking to the Spandexers.
I am not ANTI electric bicycle and I feel sorry for you if YOU are so closed minded that you would just lump me into a group of others not knowing ANYTHING about me. Maybe one day they will be worth all you good folks effort to make some progress but until you make A LOT of progress even the chinese "junk" 2 stroke is a better option. It is hard to peddle as slow as 17mph and I am no athlete.
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Like I said, Ebikes need some kind of legal mandate to compete.Wel, let's say your in Florida...
Gas bike = Register as Moped.
Register = $$
30mph = ride on the road, not bicycle lane.
Gas now is $3.50 gal so for my .32c in electric, I get almost the same distance. (Plus, I can recharge for free, wherever there is an outside outlet. (Ex. Starbucks)
Now say you need to do that once a day.. The price is 10x's mine. After a year, that would be $1000 or so compared to my $100.
Now, do you really need to go 120miles AND STILL KEEP on going all day?
I can take maybe 50miles at one time and need a (buttocks) rest.
My recharge time may be at that point 1.5 hours, but no worries even after only a 50 mile ride, if I need too.
(Starbucks is awesome, free wi-fi, coffee, etc.. Did I mention free recharge?
Oh yeah, if you're using a two-stroke you need oil too.
There's about 500 more reasons I could go into where ultimately my price of bike outbeats a gas bike.
Performance is a huge issue for most people. For me even 25 mph is just barely acceptable. 30 mph is a lot better. Right now Ebikes just can't compete. It's also true, battery's wear out fast and are expensive. No recharge is ever free, someone always has to pay.
After considering the initial cost, and periodic battery replacement, even with a lower operating cost per mile it's doubtful an Ebike will really be lower, or much lower cost to operate, but even if it ends up being half the cost that's not going to be good enough to overcome the low performance, short range, and long recharge time. There's going to need to be a substantial improvement in battery technology to convince most of us to give up our gas bikes.
On top of all that, if that's not enough, I like to peddle my bike in certain instances. I'm pretty sure a 65 lb bike will be a lot more pleasant to peddle than a heavy battery powered bike.
Its threads like this that really turn me off from internet forums...
the OP was fishing for a flame war....
comparing gasoline fueled bicycles to electric power bicycles are apples & oranges.
I don't even post anymore at the "other" motored bike site...just a red neck flame fest of ignorance on EVERYTHING...bad info on ICE as well As electric's.
At least here there is an air of civility & reasonably sound information.
I could care less who thinks one is superior to the other....the facts are we are at peak oil & gasoline will never be cheaper than it is right now....I can generate electricity to charge batteries by photovoltaic, catching the wind, or by pedaling a generator if I had too.(not that I do any of that now.... )
Nothing I love more than rowing through the gears on my CR500's (the real open classers) but I am not going to be behind the curve when the next generation of transportation arives. its the only reasonable option unless we bring back the Doble steam car.
regarding the 100mile BS comment. There are a few guys making 100mile round trips on their electric bikes & bloging their routes through the mountains.
Endless-sphere.com • View topic - The 101 Club
100 miles on a stock china girl would leave you steril.
the OP was fishing for a flame war....
comparing gasoline fueled bicycles to electric power bicycles are apples & oranges.
I don't even post anymore at the "other" motored bike site...just a red neck flame fest of ignorance on EVERYTHING...bad info on ICE as well As electric's.
At least here there is an air of civility & reasonably sound information.
I could care less who thinks one is superior to the other....the facts are we are at peak oil & gasoline will never be cheaper than it is right now....I can generate electricity to charge batteries by photovoltaic, catching the wind, or by pedaling a generator if I had too.(not that I do any of that now....
)Nothing I love more than rowing through the gears on my CR500's (the real open classers) but I am not going to be behind the curve when the next generation of transportation arives. its the only reasonable option unless we bring back the Doble steam car.
regarding the 100mile BS comment. There are a few guys making 100mile round trips on their electric bikes & bloging their routes through the mountains.
Endless-sphere.com • View topic - The 101 Club
100 miles on a stock china girl would leave you steril.
Since we all sound kind of biased, including me, lets look at a real Ebike tested by professional testers and see what their opinion was.
April 2010 Cycle World
Brammo Enertia E Motorcycle
$7990
It has 6, 14 lb lithium iron phosphate batteries, same kind as GM Volt.
Recharging takes 3 to 4 hours
61 mph top speed
Claimed range is 40 miles depending on geography. Actual average range ended up 29 miles
Weight 329 lb
The claim is 2000 to 3000 charge cycles. One of the battery's failed and had to be replaced during the test.
Performance seems about the same as a Honda 125 except for the range. The testers all were kind, but had reservations about the range first, and performance second. They thought this is a good first effort, but none of them would be willing to give up gas bikes for one.
April 2010 Cycle World
Brammo Enertia E Motorcycle
$7990
It has 6, 14 lb lithium iron phosphate batteries, same kind as GM Volt.
Recharging takes 3 to 4 hours
61 mph top speed
Claimed range is 40 miles depending on geography. Actual average range ended up 29 miles
Weight 329 lb
The claim is 2000 to 3000 charge cycles. One of the battery's failed and had to be replaced during the test.
Performance seems about the same as a Honda 125 except for the range. The testers all were kind, but had reservations about the range first, and performance second. They thought this is a good first effort, but none of them would be willing to give up gas bikes for one.
We'd really rather not, despite the emotion there's quite a bit of good info & valid concern stated in this thread.
I think Thud said it best when he stated it was an "apples & oranges" debate, it is after two completely different technologies in two completely different classes - both with strong & weak points, as it is w/anything.
"Better" is personal preference in specific applications, not least of which what you're interested in tinkering with, as such there's no "right or wrong" only what is found amusing. Where the problem may be is a not uncommon one regardless of engine type and that's unsubstantiated claims...
I would suggest that when advocating the advantages of anything, to provide clear examples & links, proven facts to help educate rather than attempt to compete*shrug*
Just looked up the federal laws for the U.S. regarding motored bicycles. Speed limit is
20 mph. From 21 to 30 mph it's a moped and has to have all the saftey equipment a moped needs such as signal and head/tail lights, horn, mirrors. States can add laws and licences but they can not remove or alter the federal laws.
Steve.
20 mph. From 21 to 30 mph it's a moped and has to have all the saftey equipment a moped needs such as signal and head/tail lights, horn, mirrors. States can add laws and licences but they can not remove or alter the federal laws.
Steve.
Have a friend at work that took an interest in my gas builds and has decided to buy electric. His reasoning is he likes clean and quiet. Just like his women. He was going to do a kit but didn't like how bulky they looked. Now he is talking to a company in California that has built a bike the way he would have built one. Gonna cost him 1500. I told him I could build 3 gas bikes for that or 2 really fast gas bikes or 1 that would be so fast and illegal that he might not see me anymore.
I really try to refain from adding usless posts to threads. (I hope this isn't one) But I need to find out is this is just a fishing expedition by some members here.
Bikenut: The cycle World test of electric motorcycles?.....Realy? Those are obviously motocyces...all come with Title's (& with proper running gear that is available from all the manufactures, can be made street legal)
Is this just poking the coals trying to get an argument out of a "greenie"?
If you are seriously looking at electrics as an option for transportation then you need to really educate yourself on all the available technoligy & resouces availabe. & keep in mind this is emerging technoligy. The E-bike scean is really the testing grounds for much of the pioneering work going on in the EV field ATM. The top engineering minds in the country & abroad are working the next wave of advances.....Higher efficancy brushless motors/controllers to operate them & battery advancements just in the last year are amazing. (to a tourest like myself)
I know it all sounds like cheerleader rederic, but from looking back, I have to beleive electric is the future....look at all the advancments that we have in the world....(yes everything)..now consider it has all happend in the last 100ish years.
Just in my Fathers lifetime (born in 1939) They went from a horse drawn buggy to church (they had a Model A ford but couldn't get all the Kids in it)
to super sonic-trans atlantic flight. They were the 1st farm to get electricity in the area when the rural electrification act came round....(it powerd the milkers in the dary barn....didn't get power to the house till after the war) now we have world-wide instant comunication & commerce....
When Edison pitched the electric Incandesant Light..the bankers laughed at him...."You would have to run a wire to every single house in the country!" they said. It sounded foolish at the time....i bet every one of them had invested in the concept before it was over (or wish they had)
On-Topic:
The OP talked about how much money the initial costs were...It's a legit observation from a consumer level.
But the things an e-bike does, It does so much better than a $119 chineese kit. (what I paid for my 48cc grubee) Add that all the E-bike kits come from mother china also...
The Main advantage the standard gas kit has is: Range from fuel.
The other is: internal combustion engines are "Mature technoligy" & there is an infrastructure around to utilize (gasoline stations, Small engine repair shops for the ineveatable re-build)
Since I don't have a standard "Hub motor" electric bike (yet)So I can't speak of their reliability....but my Small, brushless powerd experiments are unreasonably fast (I get past 50mph effortlesly) & weigh less than the china girl with a full tank of fuel...& all my drives free-wheel...I can pedal my electric bikes with no resistance......the chain drag of a china girl with the clutch disengaged is noteworthy.
(I conceed that no one can "buy" my home built bikes, but any one with the skillz can build thier own...)
For myself, the justification of buying an ellectric bike would be the education it provides. learning about the current technology & anticipating things to come will be a benifit later. I will know the correct questions to ask when evey auto has some form of Hybred tech under the hood..& will be able to make better decisions when purchasing the new stuff...I know I paid too much for my 1st computer.....it won't happen when I buy my 1st electric vehicle....(till I can buy one (mostly afford) I will keep playing & building my own)
I wont address the "piling on" posts in this thread.
(note: the emoticons are really over used around here)
T
Bikenut: The cycle World test of electric motorcycles?.....Realy? Those are obviously motocyces...all come with Title's (& with proper running gear that is available from all the manufactures, can be made street legal)
Is this just poking the coals trying to get an argument out of a "greenie"?
If you are seriously looking at electrics as an option for transportation then you need to really educate yourself on all the available technoligy & resouces availabe. & keep in mind this is emerging technoligy. The E-bike scean is really the testing grounds for much of the pioneering work going on in the EV field ATM. The top engineering minds in the country & abroad are working the next wave of advances.....Higher efficancy brushless motors/controllers to operate them & battery advancements just in the last year are amazing. (to a tourest like myself)
I know it all sounds like cheerleader rederic, but from looking back, I have to beleive electric is the future....look at all the advancments that we have in the world....(yes everything)..now consider it has all happend in the last 100ish years.
Just in my Fathers lifetime (born in 1939) They went from a horse drawn buggy to church (they had a Model A ford but couldn't get all the Kids in it)
to super sonic-trans atlantic flight. They were the 1st farm to get electricity in the area when the rural electrification act came round....(it powerd the milkers in the dary barn....didn't get power to the house till after the war) now we have world-wide instant comunication & commerce....
When Edison pitched the electric Incandesant Light..the bankers laughed at him...."You would have to run a wire to every single house in the country!" they said. It sounded foolish at the time....i bet every one of them had invested in the concept before it was over (or wish they had)
On-Topic:
The OP talked about how much money the initial costs were...It's a legit observation from a consumer level.
But the things an e-bike does, It does so much better than a $119 chineese kit. (what I paid for my 48cc grubee) Add that all the E-bike kits come from mother china also...
The Main advantage the standard gas kit has is: Range from fuel.
The other is: internal combustion engines are "Mature technoligy" & there is an infrastructure around to utilize (gasoline stations, Small engine repair shops for the ineveatable re-build)
Since I don't have a standard "Hub motor" electric bike (yet)So I can't speak of their reliability....but my Small, brushless powerd experiments are unreasonably fast (I get past 50mph effortlesly) & weigh less than the china girl with a full tank of fuel...& all my drives free-wheel...I can pedal my electric bikes with no resistance......the chain drag of a china girl with the clutch disengaged is noteworthy.
(I conceed that no one can "buy" my home built bikes, but any one with the skillz can build thier own...)
For myself, the justification of buying an ellectric bike would be the education it provides. learning about the current technology & anticipating things to come will be a benifit later. I will know the correct questions to ask when evey auto has some form of Hybred tech under the hood..& will be able to make better decisions when purchasing the new stuff...I know I paid too much for my 1st computer.....it won't happen when I buy my 1st electric vehicle....(till I can buy one (mostly afford) I will keep playing & building my own)
I wont address the "piling on" posts in this thread.
(note: the emoticons are really over used around here)
T
Thud,
Well said.
'nuff said.
I'm just waiting for them to develop the Dilithium Crystals matrix, so I can use it to have my e-bike travel faster than the speed of light... Then I can REALLY show them "gas guys" a thing or two!
Well said.
'nuff said.
I'm just waiting for them to develop the Dilithium Crystals matrix, so I can use it to have my e-bike travel faster than the speed of light... Then I can REALLY show them "gas guys" a thing or two!
Apples and Oranges are both fruit.
I for one would like to see more of that RC build Thud and whatever else you and others care to share.
Not picking on you specifically sangesf, but this is the type of rhetoric that makes these threads into flamefests. The name of this site is motorbicycling.com and whether it has an ICE or E motor and it is on a bicycle doesn't that make it a motorbicycle? If one seems better for you and your needs, bank account or whatever than the other then so be it. There is plenty of room on the internet and the highways for both versions.
I for one would like to see more of that RC build Thud and whatever else you and others care to share.
