Oregon Judge: Not pedaling? Not a bicycle.

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motorbiker

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jburr36 said:
You know that companies are going to average a generality when making a specification. That guy could weigh 400 pounds and maybe his e-bike won't go over 20 or whatever but in reality the states make averages of generality when they write laws too. Fact is that perhaps a 150 pound person can go faster than 20 mph on that e-bike. Unfortunately for this guy the courts must accept the manufacturer's specifications and not the individual performance of one person on one e-bike.

It's like those so called 80cc HT 2 cycle engines. The manufacture markets and sells them as 80cc but in reality the displacement is 66cc or so. The EPA started making the manufacturers put labels on their engines to legally sell them in the US. You expect a manufacturer to have 'Creative marketing allows is to call these motors 80cc but the real displacement is 66cc' labels on them? It might be that the engines meet the EPA emissions requirement for an 80cc but may not for a 66cc so the manufacturers found a way to consider them 80cc. And since the manufacturer gives it a spec of 80cc a court is going to refer to that spec and not what the end user claims. If the end user wants to sue the manufacturer for fraud that's a different story.
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How did so many states come up with 20 mph ? Where did that come from ?

Many bicycles with no motor will go well over 20 mph.

Recumbent bicycle tech and electric tech is zooming ahead and our laws can't keep up with the new stuff !

How many other confusing not thought out laws are keeping us down ? ? ?

Yes sir, I won't go over 20 mph on that thing if you will please still let me drive down the road with a motor helping ?

Take the motor off and I can go as fast as the speed limit sign says ?
 
"the prussian" Shop Dogs

"the prussian" Shop Dogs

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So true. I should have mentioned that here in IL. You can get suspended or rev. For some pretty bizare reasons ,like missing child support or fishing from a persnol watercraft,and my favorite asleep in a vec. Drunk but on private property??
Driving is a privlage not a right , it's also the one thing that the court's can take from you and really punish you with . The next step is gen. County right.
Untill riders face up to a judge and a presidence is set in our favor ,things won't change in our favor.
It's not talked about by most ,but we all know that this is the way police agencys get laws changed in there favor. Just write a thousand tickets and drag somebody to court. Once your in front of a judge a couple of times the punishment for you grows steadly, while it's just another day for the cops.
The key is to understand the system and learn to direct it in our favor, a tall order indeed!
 
jburr36

jburr36

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motorbiker said:
How did so many states come up with 20 mph ? Where did that come from ?

You'll have to ask those that wrote the laws the logic of choosing that limit.

Many bicycles with no motor will go well over 20 mph.

Irrelevent. Many cars can go faster than the posted speed limits.

Recumbent bicycle tech and electric tech is zooming ahead and our laws can't keep up with the new stuff !

Become an activist and lobby the legislature to update the laws for the new stuff. Until then we are bound by the laws that already exist.

How many other confusing not thought out laws are keeping us down ? ? ?

None for me. If you find some that are keeping you down then again become an activist and lobby the legislature to change the laws.

Yes sir, I won't go over 20 mph on that thing if you will please still let me drive down the road with a motor helping ?

If the state requires a valid driver's license to ride that thing down the road with a helper motor attached then better to have one.

Take the motor off and I can go as fast as the speed limit sign says ?

Yes. Merriam-Webster dictionary defines a bicycle as: ": a vehicle with two wheels tandem, handlebars for steering, a saddle seat, and pedals by which it is propelled" - pedals by which it is propelled. So logically adding a motor to a bicycle that enables it to become self-propelled no longer fits the literal definition of a bicycle so logically the laws that regulate bicycles need not apply with one with a motor attached.
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If I decide to attach wings, a tail, and a prop to my bike will the government regulate it as a bicycle or will I then suddenly become regulated by the federal government under FAA part 103 laws pertaining to ultralight aircraft?

I find it interesting that people can attach an engine to a bicycle to allow it to operate as self propelled yet still claim it's a bicycle contrary to the definition of a bicycle.

I also find it interesting that some people with to make absolute literal interpretations of the statutes and definitions pertaining to motorized bicycles yet choose somewhat abstract definitions of a bicycle.

They do so to skew the interpretations of the laws to conform to their own agenda. Whether they are right or wron is up to the courts to determine.
 
M

motorbiker

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In Florida a bicycle is still a bicycle if it has a motor that will cut out at 20 mph on level ground.

Most states have bicycle laws like that too.

So if it goes over 20 mph is it still a bicycle ?

Many bicycles will go over 20 mph with no motor.
 
DuctTapedGoat

DuctTapedGoat

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motorbiker said:
How did so many states come up with 20 mph ? Where did that come from ?

Many bicycles with no motor will go well over 20 mph.

Recumbent bicycle tech and electric tech is zooming ahead and our laws can't keep up with the new stuff !

How many other confusing not thought out laws are keeping us down ? ? ?

Yes sir, I won't go over 20 mph on that thing if you will please still let me drive down the road with a motor helping ?

Take the motor off and I can go as fast as the speed limit sign says ?
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I said this in another thread about why I think the 20MPH exists.

Electric bicycles are 20MPH according to federal law, states that adopt federal law to prevent laws that differ from federal law bundle things. Gas bikes got bundled with electrics.

As well, now don't quote me, but there's a way that city law makes money on something more than state law if it's more or less strict. I forget how it works, but money is a factor - if anyone knows the rest of what I'm trying to say, please do.
 
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SANGESF

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A city law (municpal ordinance) can not conflict, when there is a state law that exists..
If there is no state law for a particular "thing" THEN a town can adopt a local ordinance...

Example...

A state law says, "a bicycle can use any street with a 55mph or less speed limit."
A local law can not say, "in our town bicycles are only allowed on streets with a 45mph or less speed limit"

That would be a conflict...


An example of a non-conflicting law would be....

State law says bicycles ridden on any street, must use a bike lane, if one is available.

A local law can say bicycles must use sidewalks when there is no bicycle lane...

No conflict there... Even though they both speak of bike lanes, neither has anything to do with the other.
(As a for instance, if you're riding on the sidewalk, neither says, you must use a bike lane).


Same thing holds true between state and federal law..
 
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DuctTapedGoat

DuctTapedGoat

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My rough understanding of that is that city law trumps state law, state law trumps federal law - unless it is an unconstitutional law, of course. A big example would be medical marijuana in California (please don't let that derail, it's just a good example), but isn't that conflicting?

For example, in my city size is not limited on motor bikes, but state law says it's limited to 48cc - wouldn't that be a conflict?

I'm not trying to be controversial, just posing situations so that I can learn.


The big thing I was asking though was about money the city and state make on laws - if a city law is in effect first, then a state law comes in that is more strict, the state law takes precedence and the state gets the money for violators. If the city is more strict, then the city gets the money. And when I say money, I should rather say a higher percentage of money from fines given to violators etc.

It's been explained to me before, but I forget. It has to do with the strictness of the law, and which came in to effect first and then there's some taxation laws that take effect. I know how to look up MxB laws and some others, but taxation is kinda over my head.
 
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SANGESF

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FDA (aka federal government) prolly approved medical marijauanna.. So I don't think there is a conflict there...

The city/state tax thing I heard before too... But it more has to do with local town versus county or something like that...

Like town cops sometimes can't charge someone with let's say spousal abuse, they have to call the county sherriff to handle the call eventually..
Where as a town cop can give a ticket for speed limit violation or a count sherrif can, depending on who writes the ticket, depends where the fine is paid.
 
H

happyvalley

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DuctTapedGoat said:
My rough understanding of that is that city law trumps state law, state law trumps federal law - unless it is an unconstitutional law, of course. A big example would be medical marijuana in California (please don't let that derail, it's just a good example), but isn't that conflicting?
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I think one will find it's just the opposite all down the line. If the feds choose to prosecute, they'll do so regardless of state or local laws. The medical MJ issue in CA is a case in point, the feds still move on growers and dispensaries if they deem it necessary. How that is determined exactly is up for argument but ask any grower in Humboldt, regardless of the scrips they hold, and they'll tell you about the DEA presence there.

Another example might be local currency. The JD and IRS allow in certain cases community barter scrip, deemed benign apparently, but once in a while they also come down heavy like they did fairly recently with the liberty coins.
 
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happyvalley

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jburr36 said:
If I decide to attach wings, a tail, and a prop to my bike will the government regulate it as a bicycle or will I then suddenly become regulated by the federal government under FAA part 103 laws pertaining to ultralight aircraft?

I find it interesting that people can attach an engine to a bicycle to allow it to operate as self propelled yet still claim it's a bicycle contrary to the definition of a bicycle.

I also find it interesting that some people with to make absolute literal interpretations of the statutes and definitions pertaining to motorized bicycles yet choose somewhat abstract definitions of a bicycle.
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Yes, of course, but the difference is looking at something with an unbiased eye or wanting to nod self-servingly in complicit agreement. We are reminded 'don't open that can of worms' or 'don't shoot ourselves in the foot' while any serious thoughts of the MB community adopting some method of self regulation is a non-starter and motored bicycles spiral ever more in the direction of low cost motorcycles. We cannot regulate ourselves so we will be regulated on.

What I've found interesting is reading the history of the motor assisted bicycle in Europe and the almost century long run the Velosolexes and Cyclemasters had with small displacement engines and bolt on apps.
 
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SANGESF

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You hit the nail on the head...
The problem being, a lot of people want their motored bikes to act and be like high end mopeds instead of just another type of transportation..
You see it all the time... In a state where there is a 50cc limit, you see people adding 66,80cc or larger.. Wanting to go faster and faster, etc.. Without any regard for personal (and other's) safety and/or respect for the law.
 
M

motorbiker

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SANGESF said:
You hit the nail on the head...
The problem being, a lot of people want their motored bikes to act and be like high end mopeds instead of just another type of transportation..
You see it all the time... In a state where there is a 50cc limit, you see people adding 66,80cc or larger.. Wanting to go faster and faster, etc.. Without any regard for personal (and other's) safety and/or respect for the law.
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How about fast like a high end bicycle ?

I have a nice Gary Fisher with no motor that will smoke a moped ! :)

I want an electric bicycle that is at least as fast as the Gary Fisher.

It has real good gears and wheels and tires and brakes and such ! :)

Those are the things that make it safer at speed ! :)

Wanta go fast ? Ditch the motor ? Right ? :)
 
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M

motorbiker

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happyvalley said:
Yes, of course, but the difference is looking at something with an unbiased eye or wanting to nod self-servingly in complicit agreement. We are reminded 'don't open that can of worms' or 'don't shoot ourselves in the foot' while any serious thoughts of the MB community adopting some method of self regulation is a non-starter and motored bicycles spiral ever more in the direction of low cost motorcycles. We cannot regulate ourselves so we will be regulated on.

What I've found interesting is reading the history of the motor assisted bicycle in Europe and the almost century long run the Velosolexes and Cyclemasters had with small displacement engines and bolt on apps.
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Fuel costs more over there. The cars are smaller too.

In the USA the govt helps people pay for their gas and it is cheaper so we burn more.

( no smiley faces in this post )
 
"the prussian" Shop Dogs

"the prussian" Shop Dogs

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Why is it a nonstarter? We trying to forum a selfreg group right now...
It took other groups like nhra years to be taken seriously ,perhaps we need to take a play from them.
A group like the NMBA (national motorized bicycle assoc.) need's people who are this concerned about the laws and ethics surrounding mb's.
Anyone intrested in joining please pm me for a look at what were trying to do ,just remember it's only bin a few weeks and nothing is set in stone yet.
 
M

motorbiker

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"the prussian" Shop Dogs said:
Why is it a nonstarter? We trying to forum a selfreg group right now...
It took other groups like nhra years to be taken seriously ,perhaps we need to take a play from them.
A group like the NMBA (national motorized bicycle assoc.) need's people who are this concerned about the laws and ethics surrounding mb's.
Anyone intrested in joining please pm me for a look at what were trying to do ,just remember it's only bin a few weeks and nothing is set in stone yet.
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How about this rule.

If you can pedal it 20 mph on level ground using only human power and it has 2 wheels it is a BICYCLE.

No matter what you put on it ! ! !
 
jburr36

jburr36

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SANGESF said:
A city law (municpal ordinance) can not conflict, when there is a state law that exists..
If there is no state law for a particular "thing" THEN a town can adopt a local ordinance...
Click to expand...
As stated before if the state law has something like, "except where other provisions in law..."within the relevent state law that gives the local municipalities a way to create ordinances that are more strict than state statutes without a conflict issue.
 
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S

SANGESF

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jburr36 said:
As stated before if the state law has something like, "except where other provisions in law..."within the relevent state law that gives the local municipalities a way to create ordinances that are more strict than state statutes without a conflict issue.
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Correct.. Then, in that scenario, there would be no conflict...

As a general rule, Federal law are laws created for legality of things across the country, state laws are for uniformity in laws across an entire state and local ordinances are for local issues.
 
Jumpa

Jumpa

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happyvalley said:
The broken pedal was forensic, he was stopped because:
“My thinking is that if he’s not pedaling it, it becomes a motor vehicle under the statute,” Springfield police officer Brian Gay said Thursday.
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I an constantly pedaling and If I see an officer of the law I hit that handy ;little yellow kill switch and coast on by a pedaling away So far 3 years and no issues & one day I almost slammed into the drivers side door of a cop car however I managed to kill it before I went by HER.
It was right on a blind hair pin corner and she came up so quick I panicked all at once I had to slow down keep pedaling and hit the kill switch I was going at a pretty good clip also I'd guess 20-23 mph . She slammed on her brakes and yanked her wheel to the right she was kinda dragging her ass end in my lane so she might have thought she was in the wrong hence no chase ensued Thank the good one above for that one !! My brother saw me one day and said Dood your gonna need to pedal that thing a lil faster if you want anyone to believe that's how your powering the bike.
Your "speed to pedal ratio" is WAY OFF off unless you have the tallest gear on the planet that is LOPL. One more thing they never seem to bother the people wearing helmets. It's the guys that do not wear helmets that seem to get pulled over. & lights are key esp. at night . Around here anyways. My bike is " Lit up like the 4th"
 
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