What is the real truth about Inital Install?

[thatsdax]

Hello everyone. I got an e-mail from a guy. He has brought up a very common question about replacing parts and such to make for a better install. I answered it and will copy paste it now in order to help those that also have the same questions about install of the Dax Kit. Thanks...

Here is the comment and question that was sent to me....................................

I have been around the forums for a year before going with a Chinese kit. I've been riding an e-bike. I knew when I did get a Chinese kit it would be a DAX not because you said so, but nearly everyone that's owned one.

The point, it has also been recommended to replace all the studs and hardware. Do you believe its necessary to do this with your kit? I do realize in doing so it will void the warranty, but if YOU feel that it will prolong the life on the engine I'll do it. I have to say the bolts for the rear sprocket started to round off pretty readily. I hope that's not indicator for the quality of the rest of the crucial hardware. But if it is I'll replace it. No problem.

Here is my response........................................................................................

Hi... I have installed over 300 of these kits into bicycles. I have logged in thousands of miles on several of them. I have Customers, some with 10,000 miles and more on their motors. I can tell you this. I have never had to replace any studs or nuts with different ones or better ones because of poor factory steel or parts. Those that do are not properly installing. Also.. I have never ever used loc tight. Never. Do not use it. Also.. I have never had a problem installing or using the bolts for the rear sprocket. I have overtightened some bolts and had to replace them because of that. But that was my fault. Also. I have broken some front studs initially because of my poor install. Once I figured out what I was doing wrong, it was fixed using standard factory studs and none were ever broken again. As a matter of fact, the first time I broke the front studs, I replaced them with Auto motive grade 8, and broke them as well. My point being.. A proper
install will not require any upgrades to any of the steel or parts. Thanks... Enjoy the ride..

 

[Venice Motor Bikes]

I agree!! The only problems I've ever seen with the factory bolts were from "installer error"... But I DO use red loctite on everything!

 

[Bikeguy Joe]

I think the cheesey studs and bolts can hold up if not overtightened, but are very easy to strip, and barely tighten enough before they do strip

I use the proper loctite on nearly everything, not just cheap chinese kits.

So, if you want to call the average person a cobbler, and say they don't do a "proper install" due to a bolt or stud stripping, I think that's your business.

 

[HoughMade]

Dax, never used one of your kits- I hear good things.

However, as to the mounting bolts, studs and nuts I have encountered, they were garbage. Could they work? Sure, but about $10 down at the Ace gives me of mind.

One thing I will note is that with a strong wheel and a proper install the standard sprocket mounting can work well for a long time.

 

[Goat Herder]

The stock studs yes are capable of holding up. I have seen one of builds brake in the rear from engine twist. Better up grade bolts make me feel better. Blue lock tight is my favorite, its still serviceable. How ever I can see a couple of places for red, but can't imaging it ever unscrewing again if you needed to. There is alot to be said about not having to look it over, and not have to tighten hardware. My SBP jackshaft kit come lock tight recommended. The gears to the j shaft have no prayer without lock tight.

 

[Pablo]

dax - yours must come with decent hardware. I think some of the studs are OK….but it's the nutz that are ****. Some of the 6mm nuts tear the threads out by breathing on them. They really are junk - again not yours, but the bottom feeder engine kit suppliers. I also have torn head stud threads at 12 inch pounds using a calibrated torque wrench.

So you really void the entire warranty if someone uses replacement hardware? Even if say something unrelated happens? (like a crank seizure or something). Odd. Is this legal?

 

[Cabinfever1977]

im using stock bolts and nuts,i tightened all of them with a cresent wrench and pliers,i never rounded none of them,plus i never over tighten them,so none have broke,no bolts or nuts have ever come loose(there dubble nutted).my engine does not vibrate much if at all.i dont use locktight because i want to be able to take everything off if needed(to change sparkplug or something,its a tight fit).but if you have the money you can change the bolts and mounts,while youre at it change the engine and covers because there made out of the same material as the bolts.i dont mind that its all cast metal,i have jb-weld if i ever need to fix anything.my good kit is from gasbike.net.

 

[commander]

I have used to engine kits from Bikeberry and have been very ahppy with what came with the kits. I use 10 MM nuts and bolts all the time on various jobs I do for a living and the ones that come with the kit are very comparable to anything you will locate at a local hardware store. The main reason for failure is the person assembling the unit to there bike. You just have to have the right feel for when you tighten these bolts and studs. and understand it only takes about 10 foot pounds to make them right.

I haven't looked into anything DAX sells yet , but i would have to agree , if your just installing an engine on a normal bike without modding it out , then what comes with your motor kits is adequate

 

[fm2200]

I think the best solution for the engine mount studs make them snug and instead of locktite put another nut behind the first and jam the two together this will not break loose. If done properly, this method of securing a vibration proof tightness works for me, it has never come loose.

 

[commander]

Yea fm220, the double nut is a very secure way to keep these baddies in place. The reason I dont much care for lock tite on these small nuts and bolts is due to the mess and inconsistency of the product on small diameter bolts. Plus loctite is extremely expensive, I just purchased a bottle of it and it was 35 bucks. Hope i dont spill any on the floor .

I say use nylon headed nuts instead of locktite, except for the muffler studs , there use the double nut technique.

 

[2door]

This is the perfect place to repeat what most of you have seen me say quite often. That being, improper installation, overtightening and constant retightening of fasteners is one of the biggest problems I see with the Chinese kits. One only has to read some of the questions and even the confessions of some of our members to see that they display an obvious lack of mechanical skill. (not a bad thing, just an observation) Give a wrench and screwdriver to some of these guys and they will become dangerous. When I see a man admit that he isn' competent at changing the oil in his lawnmower, I wonder how he even manages to get an engine installed on his bike, let alone install it properly and get/keep it running.
Yes, there is differences in quality of fasteners when you compare the Chinese kit supplied items with a good grade of American or European products but it has been my experience in this hobby and others that a little mechanical knowledge will go a long way in making up for those differences. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people here suggest to a newbie that he torque, then retorque, then retorque his bolts and nuts. Even going so far as to say they should be tightened before every ride. And you wonder why they twist bolts off? I'm sure there are some engines out there that have a more serious vibration issues than my two do but if the engine is that far out of balance no amount of tightening, Loc-tite or grade 8 hardware is going to stop the fastener failures or things shaking loose. This seems like such a simple hobby and certainly looks attractive to the layman but like others where mechanical knowledge is required, it's not for everyone. Motorizing a bicycle and achieving a suitable outcome is largly dependant on knowing which end of a wrench to pick up, and how to use it after you do.
Tom

 

[Shadeslay]

I almost think the bolts vary as much as the engines. Most of mine where fine, but one stripped the philips head with no effort at all, it was like butter. I've never encountered a bolt so soft, after I stripped that one out I did switch most of my nuts/bolts.

I do use lock tight where I can, in places where it won't hold up "cranks, nuts to thin to hold" I use a silicon backing. Simply dab in back of the nut "on the threads" it peels right off and keeps the nut from moving. I may just start using mostly silicon, it's a far cheaper method that seems to work just as well, not as pretty though.

 

[Goat Herder]

Yea fm220, the double nut is a very secure way to keep these baddies in place. The reason I dont much care for lock tite on these small nuts and bolts is due to the mess and inconsistency of the product on small diameter bolts. Plus loctite is extremely expensive, I just purchased a bottle of it and it was 35 bucks. Hope i dont spill any on the floor .

I say use nylon headed nuts instead of locktite, except for the muffler studs , there use the double nut technique.

Double nutting is fine , but 35 dollars for lock tight is steep! I never spent more than six bucks. Blue lock tight is serviceable as a practicing mechanic there are lots of places where the blue grade is used ,and repeated. In take plenum use it as a anaerobic sealer where threads would become a vacuum leak. Clutch jobs fly wheels pressure plates , and that special bolt on differentials when you service the axle seals . The list goes on .I purchased the last blue thread locker at a hobby shop .11 oz [3grams] for three dollars. Enough lock tight to do over a 50 of these kits! Lock tight doesn't go bad in the bottle either, it anaerobic. I store my super glue, lock tight, permatex gasket maker in the fridge door they never go bad.

 

[commander]

well Goat, I just went to my local hardware store and got like 10 oz. bottle of the stuff and it was 35 dollars and it is the blue stuff. I have never bought it before mainly because Im not a mechanic Im more of a fabricator , but from all the small engines I have worked with I never used locktite much . I figure it the nut works loose more than 2 times I will weld it into place . haha

 

[oylavabeer]

I have done over 550km on my bike without the need for loctite. I was going to use it once I took it for a test but the bike runs fine without it, standard bolts, I have all the hardware to replace but have not needed it yet. Some punters must be using left hand screwdrivers, I have heard they have to much torque. LOL

 

[Goat Herder]

well Goat, I just went to my local hardware store and got like 10 oz. bottle of the stuff and it was 35 dollars and it is the blue stuff. I have never bought it before mainly because Im not a mechanic Im more of a fabricator , but from all the small engines I have worked with I never used locktite much . I figure it the nut works loose more than 2 times I will weld it into place . haha

I feel ya just wish everyone good knowledge the sport of good knowledge is the stuff that makes this forum!!!!!!! Did not mean at any way to single you out. How ever I remember going long after 500 hundred miles for my rear broken rear motor mount bolt. I still ask the same for my creations. I do not like to work on things unnecessarily. Here we are God bless us all just for discovering!
I saw a great game of surprise!! your the next contestant won? What did I win?. Lock Tight she has her place........ I am sorry you bought a big bottle .... lol. It will serve you well!50 kits maybe I was exaggerating 30 at least Got nothing but love LETS SHARPEN SOME IRON!!

 

[commander]

Most defiantly I agree with ya Goat and I apologize if I sounded like I was minimizing your tip on the use of lock tite, and Knowledge is why Im here . Im not like most 15 year olds that know everything. Wait that didnt come out right, Im 45 , but im not like most 15 year olds . lol or something like that

 

[Goat Herder]

I was currently trying to edit my message and things locked up for changing I was trying to make it sound better. 15 year olds I am 40 something I don't like to look at age unnecessarily. sorry I could not catch my post for sooner , and better. If you check my post for beginning I just wanna start over ! I just wanna fight the good fight..........

 

[commander]

haha Goat , I get what ya meant even if ya didnt type it down in the proper format !!