Thinking of changing from petrol

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Greybeard

New Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Sequim WA
A few of my questions/concerns may have been addressed somewhere and I haven't searched well enough, but I'm overwhelmed by the hype of each seller who fluff their advertisements.

I have 2 ways to get to town. The short way is with 55mph traffic, but a good shoulder. The long way is with 35-40 traffic, and no shoulder. It's scary to have cars bunch up behind when you are going 25mph. The long way is also the short way to my 90+ year old mom's house. I've had people who won't give me more than a few feet of space as they anxiously look for a place to pass or assume they can give me 6"s of room as they pass while staying in my lane.

I assume, because this is true in about any "conversion" of energy, that e-motors have a sweet spot (%of max power) where their consumption/output ratios are best.

Ideally, I would want the capability to cruise @ 25mph with good range, but it would be nice to find a bike/motor combo that could go 25-30 miles with 10 miles of that at maybe 35 or so.

If it wasn't for that higher speed desire I'd go with 1000watt, and maybe that's what I should do anyway.
 

zabac70

New Member
Mar 17, 2010
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Belgrade , Serbia
@Greybeard
It is always a struggle between speed & range with E bikes (with all EV's for that matter). Motor itself is easy solution , but main problem are batteries. More powerful motor gives you better acceleration and more speed , but "eats" more electricity , so less range; you can compensate that with more batteries , but you get more weight (unless you are using lithium battery pack - much better , but more expensive). I don't think that is easy to find best of both worlds (range and speed) within one company offer. Better to look different components separately(that is: motor , controller and battery pack) and put it together yourself (most people do it that way , because you can get a better system for less money , especially if you are patient and wait for a good deal on e bay , or sales/periodical discounts in a some company site...).
However , I think that you would need a bit more powerful motor for your requirements , maybe 1500 - 2000 W , depending on desired voltage of your battery pack...
 

Greybeard

New Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Sequim WA
I drove to town yesterday and drove 35mph on the route with the 40mph limit. I didn't lose touch with the cars in front, nor have a backup. I think that's my goal. Capable of the 35mph on level ground. There are a few places where I can get over to let someone in a hurry get by. Why is it always young women who don't give me room?
!500 watts enough for 35mph on level ground? Looking at Barelyawake's bike, his battery pac's don't look that big, "IF" I could get just do this without having to go to more than @20amps on the batteries.

Again, the goal is to have enough power available to go 35mph on level ground for 10 miles, and still be able to get another 15miles @ 25mph.

Am I dreaming?
 

zabac70

New Member
Mar 17, 2010
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Belgrade , Serbia
Your goal is very achievable , but with considerable amount of money (that is : you can not buy any old cheap(relatively) system and throw it on a bike and aspect it to do whatever you need, ie to go for 40 miles with average speed of around 28 mph and significant time of top speed of 35 mph). Level ground is quite good thing but (and this is from top of my head) you're looking at at least 500$ worth of batteries(or more) and around 250 $ + for motor and some more for controller (can't really tell the price - it has been a while since I've looked at prices). Also , the good thing is that you don't need to buy a new motor and controller , because those things are working or not (the only thing that wears out on a BLDC motor are bearings). We've been around this subject quite a few times on this forum and I'll try to recapitulate in short: 1500 W is enough for your designated top speed , provided that you are not heavier than 200-220 pounds and that you have proper gearing on your bike. You are looking at brushless DC motor , because those things are more efficient than brushed motors (which are much cheaper , but with less efficiency - therefore more batteries). Led batteries are , probably , not an option for you because of few reasons: their weight and bulkiness (in amount that you'll need for your desired range and definitely NOT at those speeds) are at the limit of what you can mount physically on a bike and bear in mind that you'll also need about 30% more capacity than if you use Lithium based batts. The reason for this is that led batteries can be discharged only 80% of their capacity (safely) and more probably 70% within limited number of times (very limited - around 200-250 times). They are more temperature sensitive , so aspect some reduction in performance during cold days. The price for that kind of battery pack is 2 to 3 times less than for similar Lithium based pack , but useful duration of those is 4-5 times less(at least). To conclude about the energy source (batteries) - you are probably stuck with Lithium technology and that costs (again , those are practically incomparable in terms of reliability , usefulness , low weight and working time , if handled properly). If something (God forbid) happens (brake down) on the road , it is much easier to pedal or push the bike with Lithium than with 50 pounds of led. You would need at least 20 AH pack , if not some more , depending on chosen Voltage for your system and some calculations of juice consumption.
As for motor , I'm strong advocate of BLDC motors for use on the bikes and when you research some more about it , you'll find that prices aren't so different between 1000-1500-2000 W (in same category of motors) so you can go for stronger one and set the energy consumption on your controller and throttle (accelerator). Advice , look on E-bay and Chinese manufacturers (if you have some doubts about Chinese stuff , let me tell you - most of the motors ARE made in China , never mind the label of the American/German/French or what have you company). Brushed motors are OK , but not in your case (significant range at significant speeds). You'll also need to pay attention on torque of the motor (manufacturer's technical sheets) , because low torque motors aren't god also , in your case (they can be ok ,but with complicated/expensive gearing and we try to go as simple as possible).
Controller is also important for reliability , in sense that it has to be one that you can adjust in number of parameters (Amps , duty cycle , monitoring state of battery pack , desirable monitoring of temperature of the motor...) , but you can make do with the cheap one , providing that it has some sort of protection against electrical surges and overheating (if it is cheap enough , you can buy two - one for spare), but I'm not advising that.
At the end , you will probably want to research some more about the subject and solutions and a good place would be a Endless Sphere forum. You can find there all sorts of information and practical advise (where and what to buy also) and lots of tips & tricks about maintenance , use , repairing and assembling your bike. At some point (when you have all the needed information) you'll need to wage carefully pro's and con's of having electric bike , opposed to having petrol powered one in terms of money , because you don't need el. bike for joy ride around the neighborhood or as a toy (as far as I gathered from your posts) and which of those two solutions is more paying off for you.
hope this helps
regards
P.S. sorry for the bad English - it isn't my language
 
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Greybeard

New Member
Feb 8, 2011
336
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Sequim WA
zabac70,

Thank you very much for the reply.

I am 69 years old, with the resources to do this with the better parts and batteries commercially available. I say "commercially" available because if I need parts, I don't want to have to wait for some custom shop to produce them.
I've been involved in motorsports for over 50 years so I have all the tools to work on, and retain some mechanical knowledge as well, for this project. My background in motorsports has convinced me to look for the best parts, not the most exotic parts when building. I've noted that there are "built" bikes for sale that can do what I want and they are pretty pricey. It is my desire to build my own so that I can look for a longer wheelbase bike than can be easier on my often broken bones.

BTW. You need not apologize for your language skills. They are better than many who were born here, and educated here in this country.

Thanks again for your reply.
 

paul

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2007
5,547
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Kalamazoo, MI
zabac70 your post was not only very easy to read and understand it was also educational for all of us. thank you! don't worry about your English it is fine and i look forward to reading more of your posts. i also believe everyone should put together their own bikes. we ride them a lot and to be honest every bit of work i have had the bike shop do on the bicycle i have redone myself because it is not to my standards. if we are going to ride these at the speeds we ride them we need to know our equipment and no way better to know it then to be the one that puts it togather
 

zabac70

New Member
Mar 17, 2010
204
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Belgrade , Serbia
Thanks guys ! I have posted before about this stuff on this forum (about two years before , look for Deacon threads (btw , what have happened with that man , does anybody know?)) , but since than , I've , kind of , retired from posting here , since few guys with much more expertise and know how and formal electrical education came up and start posting in details (electrical science wise) and I didn't had anything to add at the time. The other thing is that I don't know much about American market (regarding e-bikes , motors and stuff) , so I can't be helpful in concrete cases and I never got used to references about motor power (people use HP instead of W or KW !?).
I'm supporting self building , wherever it's possible and I'm trying to help as much as I can - typing from across the ocean (since I can't be at the scene , welding , bolting and connecting wires). However , few times my advices came just counterproductive , since I've advised guys to make some adapters and such in a machine shop and that was so costly , so I was shocked (of course , where I live, those services are dirt cheap and bike mechanics often do adjustments and minor assembly with used spare parts for free or for a bottle of beer...). So , I restricted myself on posting in general on the things I know (which are result of countless hours of reading and somewhat less time in practice).
 

paul

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2007
5,547
44
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66
Kalamazoo, MI
i am not sure what has happened to deacon. in know his heart is in to photography and he spent his time from between here and a photography forum. i am not sure which one. as far as electric bicycles they just now are becoming big in the us market and gas bicycles have grown a lot. hp with the electric is pretty much unheard of anymore and people are getting used to talking in w and kw. most references of speed on electric bicycles is kwh and not mph. it is a big learning curve for lots of us but we are learning. i live out in the Atlantic ocean where things are hard to get and not like the continental usa. machine shops are unheard of hear. and a lot of the bicycle's (not motorized) they use what they can find to keep them going which fascinates me. guess what i am saying is we can all learn from each other. nobody is that far away anymore we all just have different things available to us however we all like to share and learn and thats why we are here