Picked up old Briggs with the condessor/point ignition. Is there a replacement electronic ignition??? How can I find out h.p. Model 80202-1765-01code#84110803
pointless ignition for old briggs??
- Thread starter scratchbuilder
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MAPA use to sell them, and they also have a lawn and garden tractor parts catalog that tells the specks, breaks down the numbers. Also i think you can go to small engine place, John deer dealer they should have the Briggs electronic conversion.Take your numbers there also.................Curt
Yard Birds has some I know. I went to my local one nearby and though decided not to upgrade. At the time the price was maybe marginally more expensive than replacing all of the old parts. Since I did not have all the old parts worn I decided to leave it be.
I suppose in the long run it could cost less, also that and maybe a hotter spark?
There are many places on line you can buy and some of them are not made by Briggs but may be cheaper. Knowing it will fit and work right I like in person at a local shop. I've already known Ebay to practically always have it even if defective, you pay return shipping, unless you use some way to protest that as I have.
Got a picture of the engine, show it. I have the 80202 0430 Briggs 3hp. I saved from having to buy a magneto an have saved broken off wire to epoxied coil. That was the thin solid wire to windings that goes to the ring terminal and external star tooth washer at the coil lamination ground. I used delicate care and melted some epoxy to solder on replacement wire and instead used high temp stranded wire all high temp RTV potted strain relief. I goop the point cover too.
Yea, now I remember it was a thought to replace the magneto by the lawn mower shop guy to the upgrade which eliminates the points and condenser, but I got by with a little patience and saved the old beast. Don't know why they don't use stranded wire, it works fine for me? Anyone know why?
The wire was the high temperature, high voltage, stranded wire I bought ages ago from Radio Shack which is gone now. That high voltage spec for the wire was not needed in this application, but the insulation was very flexible along with the stranded wire.
If you do use an upgrade kit post some pics!
MT
I suppose in the long run it could cost less, also that and maybe a hotter spark?
There are many places on line you can buy and some of them are not made by Briggs but may be cheaper. Knowing it will fit and work right I like in person at a local shop. I've already known Ebay to practically always have it even if defective, you pay return shipping, unless you use some way to protest that as I have.
Got a picture of the engine, show it. I have the 80202 0430 Briggs 3hp. I saved from having to buy a magneto an have saved broken off wire to epoxied coil. That was the thin solid wire to windings that goes to the ring terminal and external star tooth washer at the coil lamination ground. I used delicate care and melted some epoxy to solder on replacement wire and instead used high temp stranded wire all high temp RTV potted strain relief. I goop the point cover too.
Yea, now I remember it was a thought to replace the magneto by the lawn mower shop guy to the upgrade which eliminates the points and condenser, but I got by with a little patience and saved the old beast. Don't know why they don't use stranded wire, it works fine for me? Anyone know why?
The wire was the high temperature, high voltage, stranded wire I bought ages ago from Radio Shack which is gone now. That high voltage spec for the wire was not needed in this application, but the insulation was very flexible along with the stranded wire.
If you do use an upgrade kit post some pics!
MT
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Hey thx guys, this was sitting in a guys back yard, $3.00...how could I refuse! Also got a nice a schwinn,jaguar,needed a lot of tlc.then the frame in pic have no idea what it is. I cleaned up the ignition and got a spark. So I give it some TLC and a new spark plug connector and see what I get. It's an 1984 model. One site said they don't have h.p, but its rated 4 .6 torque...ummm. The piston measure's just shy of 2 3/8..if its only 2hp, you think its a good go ahead for a replacement of my lil hs142? Should have more torque for hill climb'n. You can see by the rusty clutch,its been sittin awhile...
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I think now that its all cleaned up,ill assemble and....probably start a build with the orange frame. I like the straight out drop outs. That was enough to get the frame. I keep this up ill never save $$ for a motorcycle...lol
Well..at least I know there is a pointless ignition for a Briggs. I got her back together, put my stock 79 predator carb on and,oh yeah! runs strong. Dang now I gotta build another bike!got the frame...
Another way to go pointless ignition is to use one of those replacment modules such as ATOM, NOVA, and others.
Here's a thread on how to build your own:
http://aomci.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1050
Here's a thread on how to build your own:
http://aomci.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1050
Wow, those atom modules are interesting. And cheaper than Briggs replacement. I will bookmark. Thx!!
The reason these are less than half the cost as the Briggs, I think, is because it reuses the magneto that is the original part. If the magneto was bad, then still a non-OEM is just under 20 buck on Ebay and they have free shipping no minimum.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BRIGGS-...302290?hash=item1c44612852:g:q0MAAOSwcnpTqyQI
This one listed above is probably not for the older Briggs you an I have so it would take some looking to find the correct one that fits to be sure it is compatible.
Something about the picture is different for this after market non-OEM part. I say this because the Original Briggs brand part that I saw at the Yard Birds store there was a sort of lump on the coil that was epoxied to it that the Yard Birds technician said was the electronics parts molded in.
If it is just a magneto I suspect they would not call it Electronic as in:
NEW BRIGGS & STRATTON ELECTRONIC IGNITION COIL FITS 695711 802574 & 796964
Anyway if you are finally done and ready for riding, like I did I used high temp red RTV all around the point cover and the wire going into there. It is much more easy to remove than some black goop that was on the cover from whomever put it there, being Briggs or someone I bought the engine from at the SJ Flea Market.
MT
PS The electronic ignition parts that reuse the original coil have the advantage that you could try to mount the electronics further away from engine heat. When it is integral with the magneto near the cylinder with the all in one part it gets warm. Electronics last longer if kept cooler. Don't know how far wires could be extended and still work well?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BRIGGS-...302290?hash=item1c44612852:g:q0MAAOSwcnpTqyQI
This one listed above is probably not for the older Briggs you an I have so it would take some looking to find the correct one that fits to be sure it is compatible.
Something about the picture is different for this after market non-OEM part. I say this because the Original Briggs brand part that I saw at the Yard Birds store there was a sort of lump on the coil that was epoxied to it that the Yard Birds technician said was the electronics parts molded in.
If it is just a magneto I suspect they would not call it Electronic as in:
NEW BRIGGS & STRATTON ELECTRONIC IGNITION COIL FITS 695711 802574 & 796964
Anyway if you are finally done and ready for riding, like I did I used high temp red RTV all around the point cover and the wire going into there. It is much more easy to remove than some black goop that was on the cover from whomever put it there, being Briggs or someone I bought the engine from at the SJ Flea Market.
MT
PS The electronic ignition parts that reuse the original coil have the advantage that you could try to mount the electronics further away from engine heat. When it is integral with the magneto near the cylinder with the all in one part it gets warm. Electronics last longer if kept cooler. Don't know how far wires could be extended and still work well?
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Check this out, but most of those electronic conversion kits require an offset woodruff key to be installed to adjust timing slightly.
Steve
Steve
What someone said to me was that points don't adjust the timing, that I don't think is entirely true.
I have to say on multi-cylinder engines points and the rotor/cap rotation adjustment, does adjust the timing (ie dwell angle).
If you have no points as on many of the chainsaw engines, it is fixed pretty much by the magnet on the flywheel and when it passes the magneto laminations during rotation.
There is this. The distance the magneto is from the flywheel magnet can offset that some. There though is a best amount of clearance gap to be set for the magneto to flywheel for strongest spark, so really chain saw engines deal with just no adjustment in general I believe.
If these small single cylinder engines have no automatic advance for different rpms there at, they just are set at an optimal timing for running at a particular speed.
When you use the standard ignition an still have point gap adjustment, just make sure you can start the engine and it does not buck at speed I'd say.
The adjustable key at the flywheel being sort of a shim then makes sense to all the above as it changes the time for before Top Dead Center for compression stroke that the magnet on the flywheel passes the magneto laminations.
You also have some places that sell spark plugs that accept different shims (color coded) spark plug gaskets. Then the reach into the cylinder you can finely adjust the depth.
I won't expect for my builds I would think I need that. I only came across that as I wanted to swap a totally flattened spark plug gasket that was leaking. Newer spark plugs you cannot unscrew the gasket to replace it. With on line free shipping the plugs I use are around $3 so I always keep an extra while riding.
Some engines do not start when everything is right except a mashed keyway at the flywheel side.
This is clearly noted when you chew up the keyway, especially if you have substituted a steel key instead of the required soft aluminum key and you abruptly stop the crankshaft. I've sheared the soft key nicely in the past into relatively two equal halves. Steel key for the power take off only (crankshaft).
If you eliminate the points by electronics, I would also believe that you could in theory also electronically adjust the timing, but I do not think that any of the single cylinder engines modification kits have this. I expect the engines just would not benefit all that much from the adjustment.
If you add a magnetic pick-up device and integrate that into an electronic ignition as on today's new automobile engines then you could have a small single cylinder engine with automatic timing advance.
MT
I have to say on multi-cylinder engines points and the rotor/cap rotation adjustment, does adjust the timing (ie dwell angle).
If you have no points as on many of the chainsaw engines, it is fixed pretty much by the magnet on the flywheel and when it passes the magneto laminations during rotation.
There is this. The distance the magneto is from the flywheel magnet can offset that some. There though is a best amount of clearance gap to be set for the magneto to flywheel for strongest spark, so really chain saw engines deal with just no adjustment in general I believe.
If these small single cylinder engines have no automatic advance for different rpms there at, they just are set at an optimal timing for running at a particular speed.
When you use the standard ignition an still have point gap adjustment, just make sure you can start the engine and it does not buck at speed I'd say.
The adjustable key at the flywheel being sort of a shim then makes sense to all the above as it changes the time for before Top Dead Center for compression stroke that the magnet on the flywheel passes the magneto laminations.
You also have some places that sell spark plugs that accept different shims (color coded) spark plug gaskets. Then the reach into the cylinder you can finely adjust the depth.
I won't expect for my builds I would think I need that. I only came across that as I wanted to swap a totally flattened spark plug gasket that was leaking. Newer spark plugs you cannot unscrew the gasket to replace it. With on line free shipping the plugs I use are around $3 so I always keep an extra while riding.
Some engines do not start when everything is right except a mashed keyway at the flywheel side.
This is clearly noted when you chew up the keyway, especially if you have substituted a steel key instead of the required soft aluminum key and you abruptly stop the crankshaft. I've sheared the soft key nicely in the past into relatively two equal halves. Steel key for the power take off only (crankshaft).
If you eliminate the points by electronics, I would also believe that you could in theory also electronically adjust the timing, but I do not think that any of the single cylinder engines modification kits have this. I expect the engines just would not benefit all that much from the adjustment.
If you add a magnetic pick-up device and integrate that into an electronic ignition as on today's new automobile engines then you could have a small single cylinder engine with automatic timing advance.
MT
What someone said to me was that points don't adjust the timing, that I don't think is entirely true.
He was right, to adjust the timing, you either have to rotate the the backing plate that mounts the coil same as turning the distributor on a older car. Either that or offset keyway, that would do the same by moving the flywheel which changes the coil pickup time.
If you eliminate the points by electronics, I would also believe that you could in theory also electronically adjust the timing, but I do not think that any of the single cylinder engines modification kits have this. I expect the engines just would not benefit all that much from the adjustment.
This would be really expensive, and you do benefit from advancing they start easier. All the newer Briggs have the electronic pickup built right into the coils now, haven't had points for a few years........................Curt
He was right, to adjust the timing, you either have to rotate the the backing plate that mounts the coil same as turning the distributor on a older car. Either that or offset keyway, that would do the same by moving the flywheel which changes the coil pickup time.
If you eliminate the points by electronics, I would also believe that you could in theory also electronically adjust the timing, but I do not think that any of the single cylinder engines modification kits have this. I expect the engines just would not benefit all that much from the adjustment.
This would be really expensive, and you do benefit from advancing they start easier. All the newer Briggs have the electronic pickup built right into the coils now, haven't had points for a few years........................Curt
2 strokes typically need less timing advance as rpm climbs, the opposite of 4 strokes.
This is due to increasing volumetric efficiency, especially true with a tuned pipe.
Fixed timing works well with low efficiency, narrow rpm range motors, 2 and 4 stroke.
Most curved ignition systems have ignition retard for ease of starting, to avoid kickback.
The offset key needed when you change from points to electronic pointless systems is due to delay in the sensing circuit on the magnetic ramp up curve.
Steve
This is due to increasing volumetric efficiency, especially true with a tuned pipe.
Fixed timing works well with low efficiency, narrow rpm range motors, 2 and 4 stroke.
Most curved ignition systems have ignition retard for ease of starting, to avoid kickback.
The offset key needed when you change from points to electronic pointless systems is due to delay in the sensing circuit on the magnetic ramp up curve.
Steve
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Briggs-Stra...098783?hash=item3ab0f7471f:g:VHcAAOSwMmBV5gfy
Saw this Briggs electronic ignition part on Ebay. It does not include the magneto and looks as though you reuse the regular one, but add the module to eliminate the points. Note key shown along with other parts.
Many others I've seen do not show a key.
Without changing the keyway slot, a different key has to be a smaller key width.
With the key being somewhat smaller to offset the flywheel some in relation to Top Dead Center on Compression Stroke as maybe required for change from regular to electronic ignition, I have a question maybe you can answer.
The offset I would guess would only be kept from having play, by the flywheel being tightened down. And also this. If there is a slight space with the thinner key in the keyway, does the flywheel go back on essentially a little bit the opposite of rotation of the crankshaft? If so, then I could see as the engine turns it keeps the flywheel from changing position with relation the the crankshaft.
Only if there is a strong engine braking and the tightness of the nut holding the flywheel gives way and loosens the offset would be the opposite way, messing with the electronic ignition more than a regular key would.
That is as the engine turns, there is a small space between the key forward edge and the forward edge of the keyway slot on the crankshaft for the flywheel. That space has to be kept that way? This to ensure that the magnet on the flywheel is slightly advanced in relation the the magneto laminations to make up for the difference in the delay of the electronics in the solid-state module conversion kit.
MT
Saw this Briggs electronic ignition part on Ebay. It does not include the magneto and looks as though you reuse the regular one, but add the module to eliminate the points. Note key shown along with other parts.
Many others I've seen do not show a key.
Without changing the keyway slot, a different key has to be a smaller key width.
With the key being somewhat smaller to offset the flywheel some in relation to Top Dead Center on Compression Stroke as maybe required for change from regular to electronic ignition, I have a question maybe you can answer.
The offset I would guess would only be kept from having play, by the flywheel being tightened down. And also this. If there is a slight space with the thinner key in the keyway, does the flywheel go back on essentially a little bit the opposite of rotation of the crankshaft? If so, then I could see as the engine turns it keeps the flywheel from changing position with relation the the crankshaft.
Only if there is a strong engine braking and the tightness of the nut holding the flywheel gives way and loosens the offset would be the opposite way, messing with the electronic ignition more than a regular key would.
That is as the engine turns, there is a small space between the key forward edge and the forward edge of the keyway slot on the crankshaft for the flywheel. That space has to be kept that way? This to ensure that the magnet on the flywheel is slightly advanced in relation the the magneto laminations to make up for the difference in the delay of the electronics in the solid-state module conversion kit.
MT
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http://www.foxvalleykart.com/timing1.html
http://www.foxvalleykart.com/timing2.html
These are handy links and now I see where various competitions with different track aspects they use these ignition shim keys as shown in the second link Timing 2.
MT
And lastly found this:
http://www.briggsandstratton.com/eu/en/support/faqs/ignition-system-theory-and-testing
http://www.foxvalleykart.com/timing2.html
These are handy links and now I see where various competitions with different track aspects they use these ignition shim keys as shown in the second link Timing 2.
MT
And lastly found this:
http://www.briggsandstratton.com/eu/en/support/faqs/ignition-system-theory-and-testing
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