I finished the last motor mount, which doubles as a mount for the primary chain tensioner. Like my Simplex no room to adjust the motor so tensioners are needed on both the motor drive chains. A guide roller was also added to the top of the drive off stand to keep the chain slack from rubbing the top of the pedal stay when applying the coaster brake. I was forced to go to super small pedal sprocket to clear the engine case and this allowed the chain to hit the stay during braking. Not something that most bike guys will ever encounter, but this was an easy fix. Both the Simplex and the Harley ended up with four tensioners used on three chains...three fixed and one spring loaded. The combination works well on the Simplex and runs very quiet. Rick C.
Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike
- Thread starter indian22
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Harold these tension rollers are the same ones used in China doll kits. I've machined some down and the stuff cuts like nylon and melts like it too. I think the exact synthetic material itself isn't too important in quieting the chains but keeping them all moving in one plane is. Of course when the chain isn't under power is when it's at it's loosest: vertically, side to side and front to rear and needs the most support to keep it running true, but a good roller on a decent bearing helps some under power as well. At least that's the way I view it, but I've been wrong before. Of course keeping good chain tension is still my primary goal, quiet or not and it really works well on the Simplex. Note that only one chain tension roller is attached to the chain stay. Two are attached to the drive off stand and one to the Keystone cradle motor mount. Rick C.
I've tried many different types of rollers for the engine chains, & the stock china doll plastic rollers actually work extremely well! (they work so well that i even use them on 212cc bikes).
Reading about your rollers reminded me of something having nothing to do with motorbikes, but might prove to be useful. A couple of months ago I was fabricating a rudder for an aluminum canoe I'm turning into a sail canoe. The rudder blade needed to be capable of being raised from and lowered into the water. A rope was employed using a steel roller. After much thought and searching for a suitable roller reasonably priced I discovered that a patio door roller was just the thing. The one I settled on is about an inch and a half in diameter and has bearings to turn on. There is a groove at the outer edge which allows my control rope to sit in, but could just as easily accommodate a roller chain. I think the next time I need a chain tensioner I'll try employing one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steel-Patio...908242?hash=item1a204a9452:g:UBoAAOSwImRYlJSx
Here's one on ebay with a good picture, but a little smaller than what I bought.
Anyway, just a thought...
SB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steel-Patio...908242?hash=item1a204a9452:g:UBoAAOSwImRYlJSx
Here's one on ebay with a good picture, but a little smaller than what I bought.
Anyway, just a thought...
SB
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Pretty much my experience with the China tension rollers Norm, robust and reasonably priced. I'd like to find an equal quality bearing roller in a smaller diameter. Silverbear's patio door rollers has merit if the bearings will take the heat of constant use and may be smaller as well.
I'm not a fan of mounting much of anything on the seat or chain stays but when I do, be it tensioner or coaster brake connection, I prefer inconspicuous and or at least interesting. Hiding things in plain sight is something to consider as well. Using the bikes frame or stays to block a components profile is sometimes an option. This wasn't a good option on the Peashooter's pedal chain side, so I placed the two rollers in an area that already had components in frame...drive off stand and bottom bracket and the only objection that I have is the light color of cream contrasting with the dark shade of backgroung components. I plan to address that as well. My least favorite solution is to hide the stuff behind sheet metal, but at least i feel the sheet metal should be integrated into the design and interesting.
One other thing to point out. I've mentioned the bikes drive off stand being useful to securely mount brackets for drive train components. I've used this type drive off stand on a half dozen bikes now and it's proven itself a great component. I always make one small change to each one. I drill one small hole in the pedal side of the main body of the stand to insert a small diameter screw or rod after I bring the bike up on the stand. with that in place the stand cannot collapse to it's folded position. In the past I've had bikes fall when working on them while supported only with the drive off stand on the roadside. I always use the block rod when I park in a public place as kids and sometimes adults mount the bikes for photos etc. Bad form of course in adults...kids will be kids. I also saw a delivery man run a loaded two wheel hand truck stacked with beverages into the back of the Simplex copper gator so hard it moved the bike at least two feet forward, but the bike stayed upright and undamaged. It's a simple, quick alteration that provides me with a little
of mind during daily use.
Quite a lot about a little but important bit of my bike builds. Rick C.
I'm not a fan of mounting much of anything on the seat or chain stays but when I do, be it tensioner or coaster brake connection, I prefer inconspicuous and or at least interesting. Hiding things in plain sight is something to consider as well. Using the bikes frame or stays to block a components profile is sometimes an option. This wasn't a good option on the Peashooter's pedal chain side, so I placed the two rollers in an area that already had components in frame...drive off stand and bottom bracket and the only objection that I have is the light color of cream contrasting with the dark shade of backgroung components. I plan to address that as well. My least favorite solution is to hide the stuff behind sheet metal, but at least i feel the sheet metal should be integrated into the design and interesting.
One other thing to point out. I've mentioned the bikes drive off stand being useful to securely mount brackets for drive train components. I've used this type drive off stand on a half dozen bikes now and it's proven itself a great component. I always make one small change to each one. I drill one small hole in the pedal side of the main body of the stand to insert a small diameter screw or rod after I bring the bike up on the stand. with that in place the stand cannot collapse to it's folded position. In the past I've had bikes fall when working on them while supported only with the drive off stand on the roadside. I always use the block rod when I park in a public place as kids and sometimes adults mount the bikes for photos etc. Bad form of course in adults...kids will be kids. I also saw a delivery man run a loaded two wheel hand truck stacked with beverages into the back of the Simplex copper gator so hard it moved the bike at least two feet forward, but the bike stayed upright and undamaged. It's a simple, quick alteration that provides me with a little
of mind during daily use.Quite a lot about a little but important bit of my bike builds. Rick C.
Silverbear I also ordered a pair of the sliding door steel rollers, thanks for the idea and source. Hope they work on your sail canoe...post up some photos of that project as well, I think it a very interesting project. Rick C.
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Hello Rick,
Yes, the more I've thought about this I realize that the channel isn't wide enough as is. Removing the back lip and using a washer to give space should do the trick as you have suggested.
Regarding the sail canoe...
A very long time ago when I was a little boy my brother and I saw a sail canoe on Ojibwe Lake in northeastern Minnesota where our family had a summer cabin. We had a 17' Grumman canoe my father had purchased just after the war when Grumman retooled from making aircraft and started making watercraft. I believe ours was from 1947. Anyway the canoe we saw sailing on our lake had an optional sail rig and we thought that was the cat's meow. I never forgot it and always wanted one.
Two summer's ago my brother and I took an overnight canoe trip down the Kawishiwi River near Ely, Minnesota as a kind of farewell to youth adventure. I was 70 at the time and Jon was 73. My big sister (then 80) and her boyfriend (76) had a second canoe. She had not been on this beautiful river for over 50 years so it was a meaningful experience for her. A lasting memory is of my sister and her boyfriend capsizing in a rapids and of seeing her floating past me down rapids feet first... her looking over at me with a radiant smile and calling out "how many girls get to do this!" What a woman.
In yet another rapids we had ho business shooting, my brother and I demolished a 15' Grumman and limped to the end of our trip in a crumpled and badly leaking canoe. Last summer I got to looking at that wreck and wondering what I should do with it. It was then that I remembered the sail canoe from over 65 years before. An advertisement in the local weekly paper led me to the purchase of a Grumman sail conversion kit from 1953 which had been stored in the loft of a warehouse for decades. Last summer there was no bike camp with Steve laid up with a bum knee, so it became the summer of the sail canoe. Great fun learning how not to sail and after capsizing and then doing research on how not to I designed and fabricated outriggers which have worked beautifully. A second canoe (not Grumman) came into my life at summer's end and a second mast and sail originally made by Grumman. With experience from the first canoe a 17 foot Grumman double ender which I bought scrapping the idea of using the bent up 15 footer from the rapids when I learned that the sail was too big at 66 square feet for a 15 foot canoe. Anyway this second aluminum canoe is a 15 1/2' square stern and using the hardware from the first canoe as a model I figured I could make the hardware (including lee boards and rudder) for this second one. A project! Yay! Indian summer stretched into a long fall and I got much further along than I had anticipated, making the mast step and thwart, outriggers and thwart for carrying them, rudder and rudder control and the rest of the bits and pieces needed to finish it off. Most of the hull has been polished with oxidized dull aluminum removed and a shiny surface revealed. It looks really good for what it is... a beat up old canoe in a second incarnation. It is nearly done and will be once spring thaw is done arm wrestling old man winter, who in my neck of the woods is a tough old fart. Something like me, actually. The square stern will remain on a canoe trailer I remade from two boat trailers and will be parked outside my apartment in town, ready for an excursion on one of many lakes in the immediate area, one of which borders my town. The double ender will be moored at Eagles Nest Lake 12 miles from town where I have a vintage aircraft trailer on my brother's property and where I spend most of the summer (bike camp). Summer fun. It looks like Steve will be well enough to make the excursion from B.C. to bike camp, so part of my summer will be on the water paddling and sailing and fishing and some of it will be making sparks with the welder with Fasteddie. Life is gooood! I'll post some photos in the tavern section once summer is here. Thanks for letting me bend your ear.
SB
Yes, the more I've thought about this I realize that the channel isn't wide enough as is. Removing the back lip and using a washer to give space should do the trick as you have suggested.
Regarding the sail canoe...
A very long time ago when I was a little boy my brother and I saw a sail canoe on Ojibwe Lake in northeastern Minnesota where our family had a summer cabin. We had a 17' Grumman canoe my father had purchased just after the war when Grumman retooled from making aircraft and started making watercraft. I believe ours was from 1947. Anyway the canoe we saw sailing on our lake had an optional sail rig and we thought that was the cat's meow. I never forgot it and always wanted one.
Two summer's ago my brother and I took an overnight canoe trip down the Kawishiwi River near Ely, Minnesota as a kind of farewell to youth adventure. I was 70 at the time and Jon was 73. My big sister (then 80) and her boyfriend (76) had a second canoe. She had not been on this beautiful river for over 50 years so it was a meaningful experience for her. A lasting memory is of my sister and her boyfriend capsizing in a rapids and of seeing her floating past me down rapids feet first... her looking over at me with a radiant smile and calling out "how many girls get to do this!" What a woman.
In yet another rapids we had ho business shooting, my brother and I demolished a 15' Grumman and limped to the end of our trip in a crumpled and badly leaking canoe. Last summer I got to looking at that wreck and wondering what I should do with it. It was then that I remembered the sail canoe from over 65 years before. An advertisement in the local weekly paper led me to the purchase of a Grumman sail conversion kit from 1953 which had been stored in the loft of a warehouse for decades. Last summer there was no bike camp with Steve laid up with a bum knee, so it became the summer of the sail canoe. Great fun learning how not to sail and after capsizing and then doing research on how not to I designed and fabricated outriggers which have worked beautifully. A second canoe (not Grumman) came into my life at summer's end and a second mast and sail originally made by Grumman. With experience from the first canoe a 17 foot Grumman double ender which I bought scrapping the idea of using the bent up 15 footer from the rapids when I learned that the sail was too big at 66 square feet for a 15 foot canoe. Anyway this second aluminum canoe is a 15 1/2' square stern and using the hardware from the first canoe as a model I figured I could make the hardware (including lee boards and rudder) for this second one. A project! Yay! Indian summer stretched into a long fall and I got much further along than I had anticipated, making the mast step and thwart, outriggers and thwart for carrying them, rudder and rudder control and the rest of the bits and pieces needed to finish it off. Most of the hull has been polished with oxidized dull aluminum removed and a shiny surface revealed. It looks really good for what it is... a beat up old canoe in a second incarnation. It is nearly done and will be once spring thaw is done arm wrestling old man winter, who in my neck of the woods is a tough old fart. Something like me, actually. The square stern will remain on a canoe trailer I remade from two boat trailers and will be parked outside my apartment in town, ready for an excursion on one of many lakes in the immediate area, one of which borders my town. The double ender will be moored at Eagles Nest Lake 12 miles from town where I have a vintage aircraft trailer on my brother's property and where I spend most of the summer (bike camp). Summer fun. It looks like Steve will be well enough to make the excursion from B.C. to bike camp, so part of my summer will be on the water paddling and sailing and fishing and some of it will be making sparks with the welder with Fasteddie. Life is gooood! I'll post some photos in the tavern section once summer is here. Thanks for letting me bend your ear.
SB
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Silverbear it's great that you had the opportunity to share the river with family...many miss out on wonderful opportunities, but you definitely nailed the moment.
Canoe sailer sounds like an opportunity to get wet while learning the skill of uprighting a sail craft. Think I'll just watch.
Ran out of acorns and need to shake the brass oak tree in order harvest a few more to finish up on the fasteners. It's getting there. Rick C.
Canoe sailer sounds like an opportunity to get wet while learning the skill of uprighting a sail craft. Think I'll just watch.
Ran out of acorns and need to shake the brass oak tree in order harvest a few more to finish up on the fasteners. It's getting there. Rick C.
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I've mentioned before how important forum member input is to me and how it influences my builds. It seems I never quite finish what I'm working on and one of the reasons is the aforementioned influence of cycle fanatics, not only about my builds but ongoing or planned builds of their own. To name the person or persons responsible for all my future projects would entail quite a list so I won't acknowledge them at this time but will during each build, and thanks for the concepts tendered by your posts.
I'm most excited now at renewing work on the Simplex Copper Gator as soon as the Harley Peashooter is somewhat completed. Both the Simplex and the Harley are closely associated and that's why they are in the same thread. The Simplex forks on the Harley build was in my mind before I even began the Copper Gator Simplex build, then using the same engine and power train on both while keeping an early racing heritage look was similar enough in nature to bind both builds and the difficulties encountered into the original thread.
I'll. be picking back up with the Simplex and continuing with it's progress to completion...as a sidecar rig, detachable and in scale to the current frame. Silverbears canoe rig as well as Steve's sidecar has been my inspiration on this upcoming chapter of the Old Guy's Simplex pedal bike build.
While I'm planning the sidecar and completing the Peashooter I've got to finish a couple of bikes for my Son and his wife...basically built already but with a few personal changes for them and subsequent testing, so I hope to deliver those as a surprise last of March. I think I'll just bump my old thread to show progress and changes to the two China doll bikes.
Something I failed to mention is I'm using yellow oxide grade 8 all thread and hardened black oxide jam nuts inside of the decorative brass acorns for strength. Rick C.
I'm most excited now at renewing work on the Simplex Copper Gator as soon as the Harley Peashooter is somewhat completed. Both the Simplex and the Harley are closely associated and that's why they are in the same thread. The Simplex forks on the Harley build was in my mind before I even began the Copper Gator Simplex build, then using the same engine and power train on both while keeping an early racing heritage look was similar enough in nature to bind both builds and the difficulties encountered into the original thread.
I'll. be picking back up with the Simplex and continuing with it's progress to completion...as a sidecar rig, detachable and in scale to the current frame. Silverbears canoe rig as well as Steve's sidecar has been my inspiration on this upcoming chapter of the Old Guy's Simplex pedal bike build.
While I'm planning the sidecar and completing the Peashooter I've got to finish a couple of bikes for my Son and his wife...basically built already but with a few personal changes for them and subsequent testing, so I hope to deliver those as a surprise last of March. I think I'll just bump my old thread to show progress and changes to the two China doll bikes.
Something I failed to mention is I'm using yellow oxide grade 8 all thread and hardened black oxide jam nuts inside of the decorative brass acorns for strength. Rick C.
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Oh boy, a sidecar is in the preview of coming attractions... woohoo! When the time comes I'll be up in the peanut gallery with a box of popcorn... can't wait!
SB
SB
Curtis you Steve and Silverbear are facilitators, that is a good thing cause I love my addiction. I have only a hodge podge of ideas at the moment Steve, but keeping it on the small side of the scale in weight and leaning to the diminutive...rather than grand, yet not a hack. I want a chair with full body and small screen, just mulling over the shape to complement the lines of the Simplex.
If you recall I've posted several times about 'cars in the past on more than one thread over the last couple of years, while the Simplex build was underway. It's duplex tube frame, tied together as it is and made of thick wall DOM tube, just seems to make it a no brainer option for the little bike and I've got loads of power to haul it around. I really don't know why this idea got kicked to the top of the list at this time after all I have been collecting parts for a leaf spring Indian, Sportsman, Predator with 3D manual clutch build for a few weeks...since I can't seem to locate a suitable small displacement V twin engine for the Indian build. I guess the sidecar has always intrigued me and I've never driven one, owned or built one, so maybe it's a bucket list type thing for the Old Guy. Anyway it sounds a fun project and should entertain you guys while eating pop corn. I appreciate your interest and comments 'cause I got nothin' here in the way of fabrication experience building a side chair let alone riding one. Rick C.
If you recall I've posted several times about 'cars in the past on more than one thread over the last couple of years, while the Simplex build was underway. It's duplex tube frame, tied together as it is and made of thick wall DOM tube, just seems to make it a no brainer option for the little bike and I've got loads of power to haul it around. I really don't know why this idea got kicked to the top of the list at this time after all I have been collecting parts for a leaf spring Indian, Sportsman, Predator with 3D manual clutch build for a few weeks...since I can't seem to locate a suitable small displacement V twin engine for the Indian build. I guess the sidecar has always intrigued me and I've never driven one, owned or built one, so maybe it's a bucket list type thing for the Old Guy. Anyway it sounds a fun project and should entertain you guys while eating pop corn. I appreciate your interest and comments 'cause I got nothin' here in the way of fabrication experience building a side chair let alone riding one. Rick C.
Now there's a coincidence. I just bought two large boxes of microwave popcorn on Saturday.
Steve.
Steve.
Great to know you're stocked with corn Steve I need you guys guidance on this one. Curtis I have been on the sidecar thread...just soaking it in for now. What I'm sure of is what I've got to mount a car to and that the Simplex is a very robust platform with all kinds of room and positions to easily mount removable brackets to.
Next thing I'm looking at is shell size and broad stroke style that goes with the bike itself...vintage look. Steve and Silverbear went with the nautical style and if you look at the factory cars of yesteryear many of them had the boat style elements...which I like, but the stylized rocket shape is pretty common as well.
Sizewise I'm thinking about 5 foot by 2' with about 15" side walls (gunnels) which can carry an adult. The Simplex is about 80" in overall length and low so I want the car low as well with the length in proportion to the bike length. The out rigger wheel 20" and 250 lb. load capacity with frame to match. This is what I'm thinking up front on the car, but that doesn't touch on the mechanicals or how the shell will come together. Springing, brackets, deciding if it will be an articulated car and outrigger wheel or stay with a fixed position bike and car frame design.
Input is welcome along the way. I saw a small sit in kayak that might make a good candidate for a shell base that looks sturdy enough to build around, but this last is just a thought. I think the kayak is under 40 lbs. and would need to be cut down by about 3'.
Pretty much my thoughts to this point. Rick C.
Next thing I'm looking at is shell size and broad stroke style that goes with the bike itself...vintage look. Steve and Silverbear went with the nautical style and if you look at the factory cars of yesteryear many of them had the boat style elements...which I like, but the stylized rocket shape is pretty common as well.
Sizewise I'm thinking about 5 foot by 2' with about 15" side walls (gunnels) which can carry an adult. The Simplex is about 80" in overall length and low so I want the car low as well with the length in proportion to the bike length. The out rigger wheel 20" and 250 lb. load capacity with frame to match. This is what I'm thinking up front on the car, but that doesn't touch on the mechanicals or how the shell will come together. Springing, brackets, deciding if it will be an articulated car and outrigger wheel or stay with a fixed position bike and car frame design.
Input is welcome along the way. I saw a small sit in kayak that might make a good candidate for a shell base that looks sturdy enough to build around, but this last is just a thought. I think the kayak is under 40 lbs. and would need to be cut down by about 3'.
Pretty much my thoughts to this point. Rick C.
The sidecar on the Monark is 4'. For the sidecar on the Indian sportsman I am going with the same sizes you are. There is a formula for toe in and angle for the bike to lean. They are on the net in different places but I've forgotten what they are off hand and the sidecar wheel center has to be in a certain % of the bikes wheel base if I remember correctly.
What style of sidecar is probably the hardest decision. The Monark was going to have a child's Watsonian sidecar in aluminum until my brother said he had mahogany door and window casings stashed away. Mahogany = Chris Craft to me and that's how that happened.
The Monark was originally going to be tilting but the weight of the sidecar and my lack of balance dictated that it had to be solid. The tilting bike and sidecar wheel would probable be easier to handle. With the solid mount left turns are easy because the chair swings around with you.
With right hand turns you have to take a wider turn because your turning around the chair. The chair and wheel acts as a pivot for the bike. Not hard but definitely interesting until you get used to it. Silverbear and I both received a up close and personal view of the woods until we master the bike/sidecar handling.
My plan is to build a wooden body using mostly 1x2 for the frame butt jointed to the top and bottom stringers on edge (flat) and held in place with biscuit joints. You'll need a biscuit cutter but inexpensive ones are available. Clamped in place until the glue dries. Then I'll glue 1/4" luan plywood to both sides with a high end construction adhesive. Hold the plywood in place with staples until the glue dries. Then add the top and bottom the same way.
Then the plan is to skin the plywood with either 24G sheet metal cut to size and glued down with construction adhesive and held in place with gluing band clamps which look like tie down straps without hooks or glued on canvas like a canoe which can be filled and painted or aircraft covering that is applied with a iron.
I'm thinking that it might be an idea to build a small test body to show what I mean. All I have to do is decide on a body style.
Steve.
What style of sidecar is probably the hardest decision. The Monark was going to have a child's Watsonian sidecar in aluminum until my brother said he had mahogany door and window casings stashed away. Mahogany = Chris Craft to me and that's how that happened.
The Monark was originally going to be tilting but the weight of the sidecar and my lack of balance dictated that it had to be solid. The tilting bike and sidecar wheel would probable be easier to handle. With the solid mount left turns are easy because the chair swings around with you.
With right hand turns you have to take a wider turn because your turning around the chair. The chair and wheel acts as a pivot for the bike. Not hard but definitely interesting until you get used to it. Silverbear and I both received a up close and personal view of the woods until we master the bike/sidecar handling.
My plan is to build a wooden body using mostly 1x2 for the frame butt jointed to the top and bottom stringers on edge (flat) and held in place with biscuit joints. You'll need a biscuit cutter but inexpensive ones are available. Clamped in place until the glue dries. Then I'll glue 1/4" luan plywood to both sides with a high end construction adhesive. Hold the plywood in place with staples until the glue dries. Then add the top and bottom the same way.
Then the plan is to skin the plywood with either 24G sheet metal cut to size and glued down with construction adhesive and held in place with gluing band clamps which look like tie down straps without hooks or glued on canvas like a canoe which can be filled and painted or aircraft covering that is applied with a iron.
I'm thinking that it might be an idea to build a small test body to show what I mean. All I have to do is decide on a body style.
Steve.
Maybe think about ceder strip style, extremely light and strong. Kits available, hole or part. Depends on the style you chose, for me it would be hard decision. Seem to like them all even the round Vespa style .
I think all the speck are in the sidecar post here in the forum, been awhile sense i red it. LOL might have to go get more popcorn ..........Curt
I think all the speck are in the sidecar post here in the forum, been awhile sense i red it. LOL might have to go get more popcorn ..........Curt
Great input guys and I'll reply when not so pressed for time and perhaps my additional thoughts might engender some additional guidance.
Has anyone tried or know of a sidecar with limited and or damped, as in steering?
Also I've added photos of a kayak that I'm seriously considering modifying for a shell. It's 8' x 24" wide and 16" deep: weights under 30 lbs. Made of polypropylene and costs $200. Shipped. It's sized for an adult, Ic cut the stern just aft of the compartment drain contour/seat and that should bring the total length close to my stated parameter of under 6'.
In my humbel opinion it has a shape that while racy can be modified to look roaring twenties Tiffany Rocco style with attitude. Rick C.
Has anyone tried or know of a sidecar with limited and or damped, as in steering?
Also I've added photos of a kayak that I'm seriously considering modifying for a shell. It's 8' x 24" wide and 16" deep: weights under 30 lbs. Made of polypropylene and costs $200. Shipped. It's sized for an adult, Ic cut the stern just aft of the compartment drain contour/seat and that should bring the total length close to my stated parameter of under 6'.
In my humbel opinion it has a shape that while racy can be modified to look roaring twenties Tiffany Rocco style with attitude. Rick C.
