Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

[indian22]

Thanks Tony the new motor & controller are scheduled for delivery tomorrow. Pat's got the large loop frame ready to ship and I fabricated a magneto gear drive case today, welded with wire flux, all inside welds so concealed from sight when installed. Spatter is my biggest problem with flux core on frames it's time consuming to clean up. I use thick aluminum foil to protect exposed metal but there's those areas close to the weld that always pick up spatter. Building my own frames I mostly used TIG, Pat's TIG and braze/lug (mostly) construction is the way to join classic frames. I love the way they turn out, this photo of the frame was taken before the spreaders and saddle tabs were installed & everything cleaned up and it's still beautiful! Extra deep loop and wider as well to house the full scale 998cc F style case.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Working late and early to get a grip on the exhaust stubs & this my first attempt shows me that the magneto drive & rear exhaust will clear each other with minor alterations to the stub. The front stub has no clearance issues so can be shortened an inch or two at the header & turned in a little as well. I need the motor, side covers & mag drive housing mounted to get the rear stub setup properly. The blue painters tape marks the portion of tube that needs to be cut off. The total length of each stub won't be longer than 9". & I see the magneto gear case partially crossing over the rear pipe at the radius.

Rick C.

 

[Tony01]

I can’t help but smile a big one Rick! Those welds are f’in MONEY. I don’t do long ones on bikes just 3/4 inch as needed. All your info on flux core is good. I use anti spatter spray on the important stuff but it gets pricey, probably like gas so most the time I avoid using it and just try to get the perfect weld every time. I just block the weld with the gun a bit to save my eyes, have the helmet but still prefer a barrier, and weld by listening to the bacon frying whilst going thru the motions. You said it, drag with slag.

 

[indian22]

Tony you made my morning. Just three years back I had a great shop full of metal working equipment including all welding process types and full machine shop. My health took a turn and I sold my shop equipment. Doctors strong advice & good advice I should add. I posted some time later that I was back to tinkering with bikes in the driveway, but I still knew how to build things with simple hand tools and tried to encourage others to do the same. I find that I'm enjoying keeping things simple and minimalistic equipment wise. The wire flux welder has been the one exception to hand tools only, but it's just an economy model that isn't nearly as nice as many budget minded home welders have in their garage. I bought it to tack with. but run a few inches from time to time...against Drs. orders. The weld photo is a 16" continuous run using .030 flux wire on 14 gauge steel sheet.

Damage to the eyes even with a great helmet builds with time and decades of welding has taken a terrible toll on mine. UV is no joke but spatter in the eye can permanently blind and in an instant. So using the nozzle as an additional barrier, while dragging, is good advice Flux welding and spatter welding are the same thing and pose the added risk of lung damage due to the excess of toxic smoke and fumes formed during the process, so ventilation is important as is good light and both are free outdoors.

I like to encourage others to build what they like, with what they have, where their at and starting now. You said it Tony perfect weld, for that operator, every time, and with that attitude weld quality will improve dramatically with actual welding and practice of fundamentally welding sound technique.

So many can't afford to just buy nice stuff to transport them etc. but they can afford to build one off custom stuff that even wealthy guys envy and can't buy unless they buy yours. There's a lot of pride to be taken in that Tony and you are doing some fine work.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

!00 amp 72v. controller is physically so much larger than the 48v. 40 amp motor controller 10"x5"x3". so the controller housing disguised as an oil tank will be larger than I'd imagined. Thankfully there's room behind the seat post on the Sportsman frame to mount it.

Rick C.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

All that research paid off ....looks great playing the part! You ever looked around at https://enginebarn.myshopify.com/search?q=Kill+switch&x=0&y=0 they got a lot of cool little items...

Great link Moto !

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Rick, everything about welding you have posted so far, was earned the hard way. But it is what I needed to know from someone who has been there and done it.
I only started MIG welding at work three years ago when I figured out MIG does not reek havoc on my PaceMaker.
Stick does. I have a small (cheap) TIG and a tank of gas that I have yet to get use of. Any thoughts about TIG Rick? Parts to be joined are low carbon steel.
Tom

 

[indian22]

I absolutely prefer the tig process over all others Tom. I walked a fellow though the process of selecting a tig just last week, and he selected one and it's on order. I declined to be involved in the make or model selection. He opted for a Chinese inverter of 200 amps, square wave and AC-DC capable with air cooled torch. I rather liked the specs of the machine selected. He's a hobby welder and has a nice Miller 250 class MIG in his work shop.

Tom what I feature you purchased is an import steel only setup, but that's no matter if it's non-ferrous capable so much better the utility. These inverter machines work really well for light duty welding. TIg welding steel is rather akin to gas welding with a torch setup, back in the day, get the metal hot and dip the filler rod & repeat, chasing the puddle and laying dimes till the welds completed. Not necessarily fast, but oh so clean and perfect when the works completed with the torch and rod not much to do but admire your work. No spatter or toxic fumes (more or less) you can run a TIG in a white suit without worry of getting dirty or burn a hole in the material!

Steel is easier to weld with TIG than aluminum as the puddle is easier seen working with steel than it is with aluminum. The aluminum puddle is fairly transparent. Also thin steel is best joined with TIG or ox- ace. gas welding because you have infinite control over the heat you put into the metal with the pedal control and gas shielding flow covers as you back off the heat each time and this improves the quality of the weld. Also on thin steel or aluminum one can at times forego using filler rod to weld, autogenous welding, it's called and when used appropriately on well fitted and suited connections (typically butt welds) though other setups on thin material can also be joined in this fashion.
If you have a welder that is auto start and most are these days that's a plus as well . Let me stop there because there are so many good things I can say about TIG.

On the negative side just a couple of things, though there are others. TIG is useless in even a slight breeze, so outside work isn't very practical. Even indoors air conditioning or shop fans need to be turned off while welding with TIG. Yes you can turn the shield gas flow up, but only so far and gas isn't cheap and for home use you usually won't get delivery so it's time consuming and expensive to waste gas. It's also slow compared to running MIG wire, but on critical jobs do overs more than offset the speed factor advantage. On bike frames TIG is great, quality welds, on thin material, and high deposition rates on non commercial work isn't even a thing. Small welds located in tight places with beads measured in inches rather than yards. TIG rocks" very little cleanup and done well it's pretty and doesn't require grinding and body putty to cover it up. Torch brazing lugged joints compares, but doesn't completely eliminate the need for welding of specific parts for strength that can't be lugged efficiently. Perhaps TIG is a tougher skill to master but that's really open to debate if you watch an inspector critique all position welding of multiple gauge materials and using several differing joint types. Tied to engineering specs for the job. It's easy to see the difference in the mastery of a great stick welder working along side of a good certified (for that specific job).

Tom I'd invite you to ask specific questions as you get into this on open forum or p.m. I'm glad to assist in any way I can.
Like welding with flux core there are techniques, one that is thrown about a lot is walking the cup & laying dimes, real things but kinda' buzz words that are popular with the masses. Maybe you fill what you have machine wise, electrodes etc. or just questions and we can go from there. I'm interested in helping along the way.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Out of town for a few days, but I've my laptop along and phone for accessing my photos so almost business as usual.

Motor's going to fit quite nicely in the motor case with only minor changes so that's somewhat a relief. The battery tank however is looking more and more to be physically very large. I'm searching for options. I may have to settle for 72v. 30 amp hr. or 60v. 40amp, yet those still quite large physically. I'd prefer 72v. 40 amp hr. May have to get creative and or lower my requirements but I'd rather not. The good news is I don't need the battery any time soon and the 48 V. 20 amps I have already can be used for testing etc. the motor and controller really don't care about volts or amps at the low end of the scale kinda' like a tank of gas they just run till the fuel gives out!

This motors range can easily handle over volts up to 90 v. plus and amps up to 90 plus peak....momentary bursts & handle 60 amps continuous. That's why the need for such a large controller and battery capacity. In real world terms I can push into the 70 to 80 amp range for several minutes at a time before heat becomes a problem.

What this means power wise is 5.75hp continuous with up to 7.68hp available in bursts, and that with no over volt just 72 v. @ 80 amps for 7.68hp, well under the maximum numbers. Fitting this into real world, old guy riding style 5 hp is quite enough, but really 3hp or less is what I typically use. A stock Predator's 5.5hp are pretty impressive in daily riding actually.

The controller is blue tooth programable ready, with a plug in module/software. Motor is about three pounds heavier than the 3kw. but the motors housing dimensions are almost identical.

With new motor in hand I can get on with it. When the frame arrives I'll make a basic roller of it with parts on hand, adding good bits as I go. Most of you know I'm not about covering metal with much paint on classic style builds, especially racers. and I doubt this one will get much of the stuff smeared about either and all shiny gets aged the rests acquires patina, not painted on, though chemically expedited.

Rick C.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

I absolutely prefer the tig process over all others Tom. I walked a fellow though the process of selecting a tig just last week, and he selected one and it's on order. I declined to be involved in the make or model selection. He opted for a Chinese inverter of 200 amps, square wave and AC-DC capable with air cooled torch. I rather liked the specs of the machine selected. He's a hobby welder and has a nice Miller 250 class MIG in his work shop.

Tom what I feature you purchased is an import steel only setup, but that's no matter if it's non-ferrous capable so much better the utility. These inverter machines work really well for light duty welding. TIg welding steel is rather akin to gas welding with a torch setup, back in the day, get the metal hot and dip the filler rod & repeat, chasing the puddle and laying dimes till the welds completed. Not necessarily fast, but oh so clean and perfect when the works completed with the torch and rod not much to do but admire your work. No spatter or toxic fumes (more or less) you can run a TIG in a white suit without worry of getting dirty or burn a hole in the material!

Steel is easier to weld with TIG than aluminum as the puddle is easier seen working with steel than it is with aluminum. The aluminum puddle is fairly transparent. Also thin steel is best joined with TIG or ox- ace. gas welding because you have infinite control over the heat you put into the metal with the pedal control and gas shielding flow covers as you back off the heat each time and this improves the quality of the weld. Also on thin steel or aluminum one can at times forego using filler rod to weld, autogenous welding, it's called and when used appropriately on well fitted and suited connections (typically butt welds) though other setups on thin material can also be joined in this fashion.
If you have a welder that is auto start and most are these days that's a plus as well . Let me stop there because there are so many good things I can say about TIG.

On the negative side just a couple of things, though there are others. TIG is useless in even a slight breeze, so outside work isn't very practical. Even indoors air conditioning or shop fans need to be turned off while welding with TIG. Yes you can turn the shield gas flow up, but only so far and gas isn't cheap and for home use you usually won't get delivery so it's time consuming and expensive to waste gas. It's also slow compared to running MIG wire, but on critical jobs do overs more than offset the speed factor advantage. On bike frames TIG is great, quality welds, on thin material, and high deposition rates on non commercial work isn't even a thing. Small welds located in tight places with beads measured in inches rather than yards. TIG rocks" very little cleanup and done well it's pretty and doesn't require grinding and body putty to cover it up. Torch brazing lugged joints compares, but doesn't completely eliminate the need for welding of specific parts for strength that can't be lugged efficiently. Perhaps TIG is a tougher skill to master but that's really open to debate if you watch an inspector critique all position welding of multiple gauge materials and using several differing joint types. Tied to engineering specs for the job. It's easy to see the difference in the mastery of a great stick welder working along side of a good certified (for that specific job).

Tom I'd invite you to ask specific questions as you get into this on open forum or p.m. I'm glad to assist in any way I can.
Like welding with flux core there are techniques, one that is thrown about a lot is walking the cup & laying dimes, real things but kinda' buzz words that are popular with the masses. Maybe you fill what you have machine wise, electrodes etc. or just questions and we can go from there. I'm interested in helping along the way.

Rick C.[/QUOTE
Rick,
My TIG work is a gunsmithing thing. Parts originally spot welded. No resistance welder in my shop.
Tom

 

[indian22]

Tom I can certainly see some utility using TIG on firearms parts, but as an addition & not a replacement for spot welding in all cases. Specialty welding processes have their peculiar niche in the fabricating process, yet precise work with a small torch, transparent glass cup & tiny filler wire should be a nice tool in your kit.

Rick C.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Yet precise work with a small torch, transparent glass cup & tiny filler wire should be a nice tool in your kit.

Rick, yer kinda talking over my head on the transparent cup thing. As a certified Tool and Die Maker, welding was sent to a specialist welder for building up a cutting / forming area. Or in Mold repair, building a parting line surface.
Tom

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

I will look for a reply tomorrow Rick, Mona needs me to help her shower. Sure not like the courting days.
Tom

 

[indian22]

I will look for a reply tomorrow Rick, Mona needs me to help her shower. Sure not like the courting days.
Tom

I admire dedication Tom.

The standard torch cup (gas shield cup) is made of a ceramic material. This can obstruct vision in tight quarters and that's a hindrance to precise welding. The glass cup is beautifully transparent, so no excuses, you can see the weld puddle. I used glass cups of varying diameters for a lot of my work. The small diameter cups , ceramic or glass, greatly reduce the amount of area adequately shielded by gas coverage, so larger cup diameters are used more often in general welding and ceramic is fine for most jobs.

Tiny work means small cup, small diameter filler and electrode. Sharpening electrodes properly is something you really want to get good at 'cause those new to TIG get lots of practice, lol. Tungsten don't like contamination!

Tool & die is why I think you can use a TIG eventually for firearms work, precision is the key.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Stubs are on & cut to length Exact positioning of the magneto gear drive not quite decided. Just a quick mock up.

Rick C.

 

[curtisfox]

KOOOOOOOOOOOL! Like it a lot, looking more real all the time. Going to be a nice build............Curt

 

[PeteMcP]

Your twin is fast approaching the finish line Rick. When you get there, a little bit of blueing on the exhaust stubs will add a convincing detail.

 

[indian22]

Washed but not polished Pete while allowing the metal speak for itself. Yes "torch bluing" and chemicals on the pipes will be a good thing. Though the crankcase itself will be sealed on the inside with protective coating I'm hesitant to spray the exterior with much if any. Though expert application of touches with the air brush are often amazing even up close. I'm really not skillful with them. Caustic chemicals and heat I can deal with when needed, but still prefer time coupled with some help from mildly acidic lemon, lime and vinegar, stop & repeat till it looks right. Common metal working agents like Casey's gun blue, aluminum black and brass black are some of my safe (when used as directed) standbys as well. If one has training with acids they work quick, but are full of bad possibilities in the hands of the untrained & dangerous for certain, while can also cause everything metal in a shop to corrode just from the fumes of gassing off from a project completed outside the shop, but later stored inside, just a sample of unintended consequences with the use of harsh acid or caustics. I don't recommend using these to develop patina, just not worth the risk. I've used cyanide process color case, surface hardening on steel, like is used on the Colt Frontier Scout frame etc. and it's very attractive finish; so I know dangerous operations with chems on metal, but this wasn't done in a home shop!

I post photos as I go in hope that others spot areas that should be addressed or just sharing their personal preferences. Everything is valued, considered and appreciated, though not all incorporated.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Shoot boy howdy am I getting schooled on lithium batteries, BMS and controllers! Im'a 'gon slow down on building or buying a 72 v. pack until I learn some things. That decided I've 48v. packs I can use in the meantime both my new controller and motor can run 48, 60 or 72 v. without issues.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I decided to cut my trip short and returning home late last night I really dislike travel that doesn't involve 2 wheels. I've had a little time to search the internet for enlightenment & found some gems.

I thought I posted a photo of the 3kw motor bolted in the case on one side and at the bottom bracket, but guess I didn't. The 4kw & 2kw motor also fit really well & I see no reason for concern finishing up the case, with the exception being the actual magneto housing. I'll revisit that when the Sportsman frame arrives.

These motors have a base plate mount and are also bolted flush at each end. I'd think the motor is squeezed in there pretty tight. Once I get back to it I'll attach the plates to the mag drive side too. Eight of the next 10 days are forecast to be at or over 60 degrees. So I'll hope for progress

The motors and controller are functional as far as I can tell and all three spin with no load, so I'm thinking they're good to go.

Rick C.