New GT2-150 frame 53cc 10G 3-speed shifter

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KCvale

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2010
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Phoenix,AZ
I have been waiting a year for my custom designed quality real Grube Skyhawk parts to be made and shipped to the US to build for this newest style fat tire MB most anyone would really love riding as well as look at, and the final pieces are on their on their way... Specifically, the new real Skyhawk GT2A-150 frame!



[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]A couple of us builders worked with Don Grube last year for upgrades to the GT2 gas tank frame and we got what we wanted.

150mm rear horizontal drop out bicycle engine frame designed for use with 2 stroke and 4 stroke engines.
Good with heavy duty disc brake axle for single or multi speed sprockets.

Compatible with coaster, caliper and disc brakes, and can accommodate up to 3" wide tires with enlarged 100mm wide front drop out area.

The real key changes here are:
The wider frame at the seat post to accommodate 3" wide tires.
The old style would only take 2 1/4"

And the the open rear horizontal drop outs with adjustable left side disc brake caliper mounts as well as a right side derailleur mount.

Like the original it also has V-brake bosses, chain guard mounts, and both upper an lower cable routing gussets, and a nice big bottom bracket hole that can take both 3-piece and 1-piece cranks.

And it is getting a 53cc HS 144F-1G 4-stroke and my 10G direct long shaft shifter transfer case and base.

In short, this Fito Modena 7-speed performance 53cc 4-stroke dual disc shifter....



... with a 2.4L (~2/3 gallon) gas tank in the frame and an internal 3-speed rear hub for motor shifting ;-}

I am bending to the customers will and using a dual spring Monarch disc fork, and sacrificing a new single speed Fito for the wheels and front disc brake.

The back wheel hub is getting a 3 speed disc hub anyway so no loss with that.

Going to use the fenders and seat too but that's about it.

The customer wants a black stealth look, easy, the next one won't be so plain ;-:


The really hard things to understand for most...

A typical 2-stroke MB engine has a built in ~4:1 gear reduction and manual clutch.

This is ideal logically to add a drive system to the rear wheel leaving the pedal system intact by a separate left side drive system.

But it's direct drive, single speed, like a 4 cylinder 3-speed manual Yugo or Gremlin stuck in 2nd gear.
I know that is over most young peoples heads but my best first hand analogy of how crucial gears are on weak engine.

Sure you can eventually get to speed without 1st but not entering traffic, and then you top out in speed because you can't shift to 3rd.

That is the fact in everything related to ground transportation , gears help, but only in proportion to input power and the gear ratios.

A 1:1 gear ratio for bikes is one revolution of the pedals equals one revolution of the rear wheel.
Tire size matters here!

Gear systems have two ratios relative to 1:1, the max reduction it has in low, and the max overdrive it can do it high.

Typically the low gear is ~33%, 3:1, meaning you have to pedal around 3 times to get one full rotation of the back wheel.
High gear can be up in the 1:5 range, meaning for every for every full pedal the back wheel spins 5 times.

A doped up Lance Armstrong on his best day only has 1/10th HP so he needs a lot of little gear steps to gain speed and keep his legs in HIS personal 'sweet spot' at the time.

A 2-3 HP engine doesn't need a whole bunch of gears in between low and high like Lance, I find 3 to be just right.
3:1 low, 1:1, and 1:3 high.

How that relates to speed and torque is all about sprocket sizes, but the references are all related to 'pedal turns:tire rotations' 1:1 baseline.

I hope that helps some of you with the concept of gears ;-}








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KCvale

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2010
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Phoenix,AZ
Making some progress...

I bought a Fito Modena single speed for the parts and installing them on the GT2A-150 frame.

The Fito wheels and new Monark fork are on.



I used an SBP 4-stroke base just to see where the engine is best placed in the cavity...





... and then just used some easy to work with sheet metal to design the base that attaches the frame at 2 point in the back and on top the frames 2-stroke pedestal mount in the perfect spot of an HS 4-stroke with a KC 10G.



The template is up at the metal/welders place to make some with some nice welded steel.

Next up is the carrier bearing mount, then off for powder coating while I get the single speed coaster brake hub replaced with an SA 3-speed disc brake internal shifter.http://motorbicycling.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 

MEASURE TWICE

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Jul 13, 2010
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KCvale, I saw on another thread of the 212 Build, where you posted your thread here's bike.

The photo on the other thread shows what I guess looks like a synchronous toothed pulley and belt going to a jack shaft with a larger diameter synchronous toothed pulley.

I was also thinking that there is a possibly a clutch as part of the larger diameter synchronous toothed pulley.

Am I correct with any of this?

I was intrigued of this as I use a 4L type v-belt and with 3hp 4stroke 20:2 ratio on 26 wheel drive I have it sometimes slip on steep off-roading trail rides.

MT

https://vimeo.com/130158715 Trail ride with not much of steep grade
 

KCvale

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Feb 28, 2010
3,966
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Phoenix,AZ
KCvale, I saw on another thread of the 212 Build, where you posted your thread here's bike.

The photo on the other thread shows what I guess looks like a synchronous toothed pulley and belt going to a jack shaft with a larger diameter synchronous toothed pulley.

I was also thinking that there is a possibly a clutch as part of the larger diameter synchronous toothed pulley.

Am I correct with any of this?
That would the be Skyhawk 4G transfer case.



5:1 reduction T-belt.
Isolated centrifugal clutch, and freewheel output shaft.
See much more info and pics here.
http://kcsparts.com/p/32-2014-4G-100T-Freewheel-Trasfer-Case.aspx

The other one I am using is my 10G long shaft.
It is a 4G with an output shaft that goes all the way to the right hand side for direct jackshafting for bicycle gear engine shifting.







Both are for the tapered shaft clutch attached HS 142/144 F-1G engines.
The 4G works for direct left side drive or the SBP shift kit.

The 10G is a specialty item that requires a special base with a right side carrier bearing support.
In short it does what a sick bike parts kit does without the addition shaft, bearing, and left side chain for shifters.http://motorbicycling.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 

MEASURE TWICE

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Jul 13, 2010
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This set up I guess has the shifting done manually with the derailleur as normal. There are no gears shifting within the clutch unit itself.

This type of clutch is meant to be better for bikes where your using a derailleur? Does it protect some secret way or you know how it helps? I suspect problems with, chain and sprocket etc from undue wear an tear or catastrophic failure from power shifting or slack and then power up changes in speed?
 

KCvale

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Feb 28, 2010
3,966
57
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Phoenix,AZ
This set up I guess has the shifting done manually with the derailleur as normal. There are no gears shifting within the clutch unit itself.
Correct.
All the transfer does is provide the cent clutch and gear reduction, your back wheel does the shifting.

This type of clutch is meant to be better for bikes where your using a derailleur?
Does it protect some secret way or you know how it helps?
I suspect problems with, chain and sprocket etc from undue wear an tear or catastrophic failure from power shifting or slack and then power up changes in speed?
I prefer not to use a derailleur, they use thin chain and only straight in 3-4th gears so there is an art to riding them.
For starters I just use the even numbered gears, in short skip a gear every shift.

A bad shift, especially on a souped up 66cc and you can tweak the derailleur or snap the chain, but neither is catastrophic, just inconvenient.

On the other hand a 3-speed is awesome.
Fatter chain, it's always in-line, and you can shift it sitting still.

I have a dozen 3-speed shifters out there and none have failed.

This build got a Sturmey Archer SK-SX3 disc hub.



Man this thing is one beefy hub.

It is starting with the stock included 18T rear sprocket, I can change that in a heartbeat from ~13-24T for like $8 to adjust final drive ratio and just move the wheel in the open back horizontal dropouts to tighten the chain with an axle tug.

Sure you can get an internal with more gears but I have found that 3 is all ya need, even with only ~50cc of power.

An engine has a far bigger power band than your legs do, which is what all the gears on a pedal bike are for, the thing is, Low and High are the same, the others are just in-between gears.

1st to get you off the line and to 20mph in a like 2 seconds, 2nd for about what you get with direct drive, and 3rd to give you that overdrive gearing for more speed.

While the frame is up for coating I also got the Monarch fork done, it has an unconventional right side caliper and there was talk a 'normal' caliper would not mount for some reason.
The stock one went right on with no issues at all so I don't know what that was all about, it just doesn't care which side it goes on.



Note the inside fork, the one that attaches to the frame, is not pictured.
All it does is provide the bike interface and steering tube, the wheel and brake attach to the front fork.

This is all that is left of the brand new Fito Modena GT that provided most of the parts for this new build.



I have it up for sale here for $95.
Not bad for a frame that will take 3" wide 26" tall tires, and has a triple tree disc brake fork and stock BB pedal assembly attached.

That will help offset some of the cost of the new frame, powder coating, new forks, and freewheel BB.

Not a cheap build to say the least, but still under $2K.

Not everyone cares so much about price, they just want something flat out awesome in their custom style.
I hope I meet his expectations ;-}http://motorbicycling.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 

langolier

Member
Jul 6, 2015
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Wisconsin
Quote "I prefer not to use a derailleur, they use thin chain and only straight in 3-4th Ggears so there is an art to riding them.
For starters I just use the even numbered gears, in short skip a gear every shift.
A bad shift, especially on a souped up 66cc and you can tweak the derailleur or snap the chain, but neither is catastrophic, just inconvenient.
On the other hand a 3-speed is awesome.
Fatter chain, it's always in-line, and you can shift it sitting still.
I have a dozen 3-speed shifters out there and none have failed." Quote


I find this very interesting, I am looking to do another build and will most likely go with the GT2-150 frame (have a GT2-A now and love it). I was thinking a derailer was more robust than a hub shifter. Heard somewhere here that a hub was used and got destroyed due to the motor drive but didn't hear any details of it. Since I'm just north of 200 lbs it could be an issue. Still also undecided if I will go with another 2 stroke (have mine running flawlessly now) or try a 4 stroke. I'm tempted with another 2 stroke since I have a half baked idea of a different drive system that would eliminate the jack shaft but requires using the 2 stroke because of the 4:1 internal reduction. I think a hub shifter looks cleaner and would prefer that but I was leery on how robust it would be.
 

KCvale

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2010
3,966
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Phoenix,AZ
I find this very interesting, I am looking to do another build and will most likely go with the GT2-150 frame (have a GT2-A now and love it).

I was thinking a derailleur was more robust than a hub shifter.

I think a hub shifter looks cleaner and would prefer that but I was leery on how robust it would be.[/QUOTE]
Well, I will take an internal shifter over any external shifter every time.

One fixed sprocket on the hub perfectly aligned and using HD 410 speed chain beats the **** out of a skinny 7-speed chain that is only aligned in 3-4th gears.

And you can shift gears on an internal sitting still, you have to spin the chain to change sprockets on an external shifter.

And one last thing is the ratio jumps.

People power needs a lot of jumps between gear ratios, an engine doesn't.
The difference between Low and High gear are about the same between a 3-speed and a 7-speed, the 7-speed just has baby step gears in between.

BUILD STATUS UPDATE:

The Fito parts don't play as friendly as I'd have liked, but they work well.
I managed to keep the Fito's stitched leather grips, front fender and chain guard.



The rear finder will have to be a custom mount because of the frame size.
Speaking of which it's a 150mm wide rear frame, but the 3-speed hub is 170mm wide.

It bent wider easy enough, but that messed up the rear disc caliper mount alignment.
No biggie to bend it back and align.
Both brakes are attached, working and adjusted.



No issue with the front brake, the pedal arms clearing everything, or getting the 3-speed in and adjusted.




I still need a couple hours on bike stuff tomorrow but then it's on to the engine which should go in pretty easy.http://motorbicycling.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 

sissytrikerider

New Member
Jun 25, 2011
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buffalo
Are you sure on the axle size. I am running the same srk3 hub on the older gt2as frame i am building now and its 135mm. You can add and subtract nuts on the axle to adjust its width. There is an older version of the hub which i was actuAlly sent and returned and got the correct one sent. But the hub is even shaped different and yours as far as i can tell from your pics looks like mine.
 

sissytrikerider

New Member
Jun 25, 2011
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buffalo
Correction i miss read earlier, we have diffrent hubs. But as i said you should be able to adjust ur axle length by removing or adding nuts. I do believe the side where the shifter cable goes has to be at a certain anount of threads outside the frame but that can be adjusted the same way.it might help with you caliper alignment also. I cant run a disc on mine because i elected to mount my sprocket there and dont have the clarence as you do in that nice new frame lol
 

KCvale

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2010
3,966
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Phoenix,AZ
Correction i miss read earlier, we have diffrent hubs. But as i said you should be able to adjust ur axle length by removing or adding nuts.
I elected to mount my sprocket there and dont have the clarence as you do in that nice new frame lol
Ya, different hub, that sucker was huge.
There was nothing that could be removed on the shaft before it's outside and inside of the dropouts, they are there for a reason.

ANyway it turned out well I think.





And it got some special additions on the handlebars...



Leather wrapped foam grips, 1200 Lumen Crey T6 LED headlight, cool little fener mount LED taillight (not shown), Hour/Tachometer (shows total operation hours when the engine is off, RPM's when on), Speedometer/Odometer, 3-speed shifter and throttle, and all easy on the hands and easy to operate.

Ohh, I also put a SBP 4-stroke air cleaner on it just for giggles and grins as it fit easy and looks better ;-}

All it takes is time and money.

http://motorbicycling.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 
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langolier

Member
Jul 6, 2015
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0
6
Wisconsin
Nice clean build, I'm liking the flat black finish. FYI on my GT2-A I had to drill out the gas cap breather hole a bit larger because it was creating too much of a vacuum and killing the motor, Don't know if you ever came across that or not. Glad to see the new GT frames except just about any variation of drives\brakes you would want, It's a great platform to build from.
 

KCvale

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2010
3,966
57
48
Phoenix,AZ
Nice clean build, I'm liking the flat black finish. FYI on my GT2-A I had to drill out the gas cap breather hole a bit larger because it was creating too much of a vacuum and killing the motor, Don't know if you ever came across that or not. Glad to see the new GT frames except just about any variation of drives\brakes you would want, It's a great platform to build from.
No issues with fuel on this first one but I will keep an eye on it for this next one.

Pretty much the same 4-stroke build but more 'my touch' artistic freedom.
It won't be black, I'm sick of black.
But I do think maybe a 5-speed might be more versatile, gonna have to explore that today, any ideas for 5-speed disc brake hubs 150mm wide?
 

KCvale

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2010
3,966
57
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Phoenix,AZ
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/rx-rk5

Actually I was looking at the Sturmey Rx-rk5 mainly because the 1:1 ratio is in the 3rd gear. Top two gears I would probably not use much but with the two lower gears it will work well with what I want to build next. I believe it has a 135mm mounting width which can be shimed out to 150mm.
What's nice is can you pick what your overall speed is by changing the sprocket on the wheel to take advantage of the full range of 5 gears.
 

2Stroken

Member
Jun 3, 2013
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Chattanooga TN
I have had this new frame for several months now. My only problem with it is the rear disc brake mount. What size disc and mount are you using KCvale? I am trying to use a Avid Elixir 5 hydraulic brake on the back but the mount angle is wrong and the 160mm disc is too small.