need advice on drivetrain modification

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bigbutterbean

Active Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Lebanon, PA
So I have an idea for a modification to my drivetrain. It is sorta the same idea as a shift kit, but it wont work exactly the same. I have a mountain bike hub from a rim that I stripped. I know that if I spin the gears backwards, they will freewheel. so if I mounted the hub in the same fashion that a shift kit freewheel is mounted, I would be able to use it as a pulley. I would run a length of chain from the engine to the cassette, and then another from the freewheel to the sprocket on the rear wheel. The idea is that because the cassette has more teeth than my engine's drive sprocket, the freewheel would effectively give me a better gear ratio. Because I have a beach cruiser, I woul5 not be able to shift gears, but I think I might get a little better top speed and gain a little torque for climbing hills better. Let me know what you think.
 
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bigbutterbean

Active Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Lebanon, PA
ok let me try it another way. the hub would be attached to the seat tube, under the engine. the cassette side of the hub would be on the same side of the bike as the engine drive sprocket, and the cassette would spin freely. A length of chain would go from the engine sprocket to the cassette, so the engine would drive the cassette. Then another chain would go from the cassette to the sprocket on the rear wheel, thereby causing the cassette to drive the rear wheel. the idea is that i can change my gear ratio to give myself some increase in speed and torque.
 

bigbutterbean

Active Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Lebanon, PA
i dont think you quite get it. the engine drive sprocket has ten teeth. i dont know how many the biggest gear on the cassette has, but lets say its 25. then lets say the next biggest gear on the cassette has 20 teeth. so, with a chain going from the engine to the 25 tooth gear and another chain going from the 20 tooth gear to the rear wheel, the rear wheel is now being driven by a 20 tooth gear instead of a ten tooth gear. and thats just an example. i dont know how many teeth the gears on the cassette have, but i know even the smallest gear on the cassette has more teeth than the engine drive sprocket. basically think of it like this. the cassette is like a pulley between the engine drive sprocket and the rear wheel sprocket.
 

CaliRebel

New Member
Apr 4, 2011
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Santa Barbara, CA
This could almost be a poor man's jackshaft, but I think it's an uphill battle if you are really determined. The main reason for the Jack shaft is so the cassettes can act as a transmission. If you put one on a cruiser you're just stuck at one gear ratio, which can only give you better torque or better top speed, not both.
 

bairdco

a guy who makes cool bikes
Aug 18, 2009
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so, basically you're using two different gears on the same cassette to "step-up" the gear ratio, right? and you're not gonna be shifting it, so it'll be a single speed system, right?

if i understand you correctly, i think it's just redundancy. meaning, if you just put a different size sprocket on the rear, it'll achieve the same results.

let me type my way through this...

the engine sprocket drives one gear on the cassette, then another gear on the same cassette drives the rear sprocket on the wheel. so the engine works less to drive the first gear, but then that's cancelled out by the smaller gear driving the rear wheel.

you could mathematically work out what the final drive ratio would be depending on which sprockets you're using, but you could also (and easily) find that same final drive using one rear sprocket.

to explain even simpler, say you gear the bike to act like it has a 50t sprocket in the rear. it'd be easier to just buy a 50t sprocket.

the only way you'd get any advantage from your proposed sytem would be incorporate the ability to shift, so it has a variable final drive.

also, if the cassette freewheels, like when you pull the clutch the chain doesn't keep spinning, you won't be able to start the bike by pedaling, and would need a pull-start.

if you're thinking of something else, and i interpreted it totally wrong, sorry 'bout that. :)

also, i may be wrong. i've had a few beers...
 

wdbtchr

Member
Jan 31, 2008
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Juneau, Ak
Thanks Bairdco, that's what I was seeing too. I was thinking it would drive on the pedal side though. Think I'll have a couple beers now.

Give that man a handful of pretzel M & M's.
 

nextpimp

New Member
Mar 28, 2011
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NY
Its all left side ..... could work. I think I'd like to see this. You'd still have engine brake too.... though you'd probably shred the cassette using it.

The question is... would it be better to shift up or down the cassette from where the engine is set.

If you need help visualizing... take your back wheel and put it under your seat... sprocket left, and see what comes natural.

EDIT #3 ... Ok.. The more i think about this the more i like it. IT HAS TO SHIFT THOUGH. As long as it shifts you should be able to settle on a rear sprocket.

Edit #4 . I went to sleep and saw this thing. First, After re-reading, I the ops ORIGINAL idea should work.. giving him the torque/acceleration tradeoff he was looking for through the gear reduction. He can do.. 10t(motor) to 18-19t(cassette/pulley) to 11t(smallest cassette) to final sprocket.

Do you think you rig a standard rear derailleur to allow to to shift..you would be shifting "up" climbing the cassette..correct???
 
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bigbutterbean

Active Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Lebanon, PA
ok this was my idea thank you. you can have your own ideas, but im not changing mine. not to be ignorant. i am not using the cassette to shift gears. to address the freewheel/engine break issue, here is the deal. with the cassette on the engine side, the cassette will coast, therefore spinning forward freely. the hub will not move when the cassette is spinning forward (counter-clockwise). because the hub will be fixed in place, the cassette will not be able to spin clockwise. therefore, i will never be able to move the bike backwards, whether the clutch is engaged or not. as far as the comment that i could achieve the same results by changing the size of the rear sprocket, yes that is correct. however, the cassette and hub was free. another sprocket is not. so basically, my idea is to make a one-speed jackshaft for a motorized beach cruiser. if i get it to work, perhaps others will want to try it. perhaps not. if it works for me, thats all i really care about.
 

nextpimp

New Member
Mar 28, 2011
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NY
Dude... It will work.. but baird is also correct. Simply put... you'll get the torque at the cost of the acceleration you would have had with standard gearing. I'm also assuming you're gonna change the sprocket in the back cause with your system cause your gonna need smaller drive chain correct?? If your not changing the back sprocket... idk dude. You're gonna be emulating a really big sprocket. basically, my edit#4 on a 32t final is = to a 55t direct drive.

Seriously though ... You may have stumbled across the perfect budget shift system. Follows K.I.S.S guidelines. I just did a good portion of the general math if you need some #'s ... GL
 
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bigbutterbean

Active Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Lebanon, PA
in all honesty, i probably wont ever attempt to build this myself. i talked to my dad about it, and he said it would take a lot of work and the right tools. he also said it would be better to weld it on than to clamp it. what i would probably do is take it to a machine shop and find out how much it would cost to have it done professionally. if i spent the mpney to have it done, i would probably make it shiftable. that would be badass. i could have different gears for my engine on a beach cruiser. that would be sick! it would probably compare to a dirtbike if i did that. i would probably keep it on low gear most of the time unless going up hills though. dont need attention from police though. unless someone wants to volunteer that thinks they could do it. probably need a tig welder and some grinding tools and whatnot. if someone on here could pull it off, the knowledge on how to build it would be theirs and they could keep all the notes and whatever.
 
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bairdco

a guy who makes cool bikes
Aug 18, 2009
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ok, so we were on the same page. and the cost of a sprocket would be a lot cheaper than the cost to fabricate it all, unless you have access to all of the equipment and the time.

now, in order to make it shift, you would need to make a front derailler with the capability of movement the same as a rear one. then you would have to attach that to the bike somehow, too.

you'd need to have the gear selection on the wheel drive, and leave the engine drive static (one speed.)

the chain size would be a bit of a problem, as you would have to use a chain that's wide enough for the rear sprocket, yet still small enough for the cassette gears and the derailler. might be able to use a heavy duty bmx chain, i forget the size, it'll fit on the sprockets, but you still might have to modify the derailler. most derailler chains are thinner.

still, all of this could be done.

next, you're saying the cassette's freewheel would act in the same way as a bearing. it'd be like a "one way ratcheting bearing" (i just made that term up, i think:)) you'd have to have a hub with a strong enough cassette so it wouldn't get ripped apart while shifting. i don't think a regular hub's freewheel would hold up.

also, if i understand correctly, the freewheel is basically acting as a bearing, the cassette as an axle, and the hub as the housing.

i don't think the cassette could withstand the constant hi speed spinning and torque loads the engine would put out. they're designed for coasting at relatively slow speeds, and all those tiny little bearings would probably fuse together or explode if ran at a constant high rpm, like a 40+mph motor bike would put out. even a 20+mph would probably melt it.

also, i'm not putting your idea down, just going through the basic mechanics of it to see if it would work.

unless i'm missing something, the middle gears would cancel themselves out, and be nothing more than a very complicated chain tensioner, unless you could make it shift.
 
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DuctTapedGoat

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Dec 20, 2010
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Nampa Idaho
I can't think of a way to take advantage of a fully loaded cassette without making a super complicated setup.

Though, if there's a way, I'm willing to give it a shot - cheaper than a 400 dollar shift kit.
 

bigbutterbean

Active Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Lebanon, PA
yes, a different size sprocket would be WAY cheaper than taking it to a machine shop. however, making this gear train shiftable would be worth the extra cost. it would turn a direct drive into something like a 4 speed or a 5 speed. the more i think about it, the more i like the idea of a variable speed drivetrain. i am gonna go to a machine shop as soon as i can and check the cost of it. even if it were not shiftable, it would still change my gear ratio. my current gear ratio is 4.40:1. using the cassette as a jackshaft and using the two biggest gears on the cassette would change the gear ratio to 4.78:1. now i dont know exactly what that would accomplish. tomorrow i am gonna count all the teeth on the cassette and run the numbers to find each gear ratio.
 

bairdco

a guy who makes cool bikes
Aug 18, 2009
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living the dream in southern california
yeah, but like i said earlier, just buying another rear sprocket will change your gear ratio without going through all the trouble.

unless you could make it shift, the cost, time, and effort isn't worth it, unless you just wanna have something weird on your bike for people to trip out on.

and before you go to the machine shop, you need to really think it through. like, is the chain available, will a derailler work, how can i mount it, what levers, cables, etc can i use, is there clearance for the hub, chain, etc on the bike...

and a bunch of other little things i can't think of right now.

i know this from experience. i've gone off on some weird inventor's tangents, only to wind up with a bunch of parts sitting around, because i forgot one little thing that rendered it all useless. seriously, you should see the awesome junk i have sitting around...
 
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bigbutterbean

Active Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Lebanon, PA
yeah, the more i think about it, the more i like the idea of having more than one speed. i am definitely gonna have it made shiftable. i am gonna ride to a machine shop and get an estimate. i really dont think the freewheel is gonna get shredded. if you had a mountain bike and put an engine on it without a shift kit, it would be basically the same as what i am doing. chaging the rear sprocket would give me a different gear ratio, but it wont give me a 4 or 5 speed transmission. i am surprised no one has thought of this before.