I need clarfication on the following statement made by Quieton

[Ranger-Ron]

“As the NE motors became standard equipment on the 2005/2006/2007/2008/2009 motorbikes the loose valve seat problem disappeared. Sadly the vendor in Taiwan found it necessary to reduce production costs [un-approved by the American Whizzer company] and the later cylinders & heads became problematic. Issues like uneven cylinder platforms [deep tool marks], poorly designed heads, improperly cured aluminum [brittle head bolt threads], and worst of all some crazy idea of installing a one-piece valve seat block. I usually live by the rule "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and took a while to understand the engineering behind the use of the "valve seat block". I now know why, but saying, "follow the money trail" won't cure the problem.”

I’m sorry, but in my old age I seem to get confused easily. Does my 2008 Ambassador w/ the CVT drive, that I bought a few weeks ago, have engine problems that are being referred to in the above paragraph with the valve seats and/or does it have the Mickey Mouse valve seat block? How about problems with brittle aluminum, uneven cylinder platforms, poorly designed heads and/or soft lifters?

Thanks for your feed back.

 

[Quenton Guenther]

Hi Ranger-Ron,

Most likely you will have several of the issues mentioned in your post. I have worked on several NE-r and Ambassador models and some had the valve block and some didin't. All Ambassadors have the "brittle" tread issues, however it is fixable if modified soon rather than later. The lifters are too heavy, may not have flat base, and are soft [soft isn't a problem].

If you have the valve block, the cylinder will need to be "decked"[can't be done with a mill], but most importantly the 2 screws holding the block in place are too high and must be leveled, because they damgae the head [between the combustion chamber and the center rear headbolt].

If you have the stock NE cylinder, the cylinder will still need to be "decked" as they all have deep tool marks and will seal better if level.

The heads used on the Ambassador have issues with the compression release, as the spring in the release loses the tension after being exposed to some high temperatures. The normal fix it to replace the release with a custom bolt, as the bike normally starts easier without the release.

The heads used on the Ambassador have a decent combustion chamber, but run very hot as they have very small fins.

Replacing the headbolts and washers with quality replacements is a great idea, as the original bolts stretch, and the washers could stand being a little thicker.


Once the upgrades [modifications] are done the bike should work well.

I have a first edition Ambassador with the automatic clutch, NE cylinder, and the last edition head with the standard fins [runs cooler than the later heads].

If you need any help, just ask.


Have fun,

 

[Ranger-Ron]

Quenton,

Thanks for the information, and I'm sorry about misspelling your name.

What is the best way to level the 2 screws holding the valve bock? Counter sink them deeper?
What size are the head bolts and what grade do you recommend for replacements?

Thanks again,
Ranger-Ron

 

[Quenton Guenther]

Hi Ranger-Ron,

I wouldn't try to countersink the screws, as it is difficult to match the angle of the screws used. You can't use a mill, because there are 3 different metals involved and the mill simply cuts deep grooves in the aluminum as it travels from the valve block to the softer metal. Although primitive, the best way is on a belt sander, and then work on a completely flat surface [granite block, etc] with #220 sand paper until smooth & flat. It is also wise to re-cut the valve seats deeper so that the valves have a better chance of sealing.

Use grade 5 or 8, and try to avoid stainless steel if possible. You can find the two 10 MM allen bolts that use the same size allen wrench as the seven 8 MM bolts, however the heads may need to be trimmed down to fit the cut-away areas in the head. You can also install a washer under the 10 MM bolts by simply enlarging the hole in a 5/16" thick washer to fit the larger head bolts.

I think it important to explain the "lest than stellar engineering" used in the head bolt choice. Have you ever seen a head attached with different size bolts? Why did the vendor elect to use different size head bolts? When he was asked, he said, "we need the larger holes to allow the use of a long allen wrench to tighten the rear cylinder bolts” When asked how he used smaller holes to attach the WC-1 cylinder. he refused to answer.........DUH! Using different size head bolts is a really dumb idea, and requires a different amount of torque on the larger bolts. If we do a little more research, we also find some really stupid ideas concerning the washers used. The purpose of using thick washers is simple; as it maintains a completely flat surface to keep the head bolts tight. If you use thin or soft washer they simply bend and then distort the area on the aluminum head around the boltholes, and you guessed it!!!!!!! they work loose. Another of my favorite concepts from Taiwan is the use of multiple washers on the head bolts, including lock washers that lose the tension after getting hot.


Best solution is to use a SINGLE THICK flat washer under each bolt, torque correctly and not worry about loose bolts or blown head gasket. The bolts should be just short of bottoming out in the cylinder boltholes, however as usual they aren't all the same depth. I normally purchase slightly longer bolts and grind to the correct size to allow the use of every thread possible to maintain the best seal of the head.

Torque the 8 MM bolts to 180 inch pounds and the 100 MM to 210 inch pounds. Then re-torque on a cold motor after the first 100 miles.

Hope this information is helpful.

Have fun,

 

[mason_man]

Hi Quenton,aren't the headbolts on the NE's stainless steel ? are the headbolts different on the NE-r's. Is there something wrong with the headbolts the NE used. Thanks Ray

 

[The_Aleman]

Stainless steel bolts are of inferior strength. They are usually ungraded, and so it's better to use Grade 5 or 8 (SAE) or Property Class 9.8, 10.9 (Metric).

 

[bairdco]

also, stainless is harder than aluminum, and the threads "cut" into the softer aluminum, causing seizures at worst, and stripping at best.

 

[Quenton Guenther]

Hi mason man,

The bolts used in the NE series motors are normally a poor grade with chrome allen heads, except for the 10 MM bolts. The 10 MM bolt doesn't have the head chromed.

It is somewhat difficult to find the 10 MM allen bolts, and often they are only available in stainless steel. Finding the 8 MM bolt is easy as most hardware stores stock them. I was able to find a 10 MM "button head" allen bolt that uses the same size wrench as the 8 MM but had to machine the top to fit the head.

I suspect it isn't so much the type of bolt selected, as it is the quality of the bolt.

I do know my record setting Whizzer motor has had the same head, copper head gasket, grade 5 head bolts, spark plug, and vintage washers for the last 6 years. I have never had to re-torque the head bolts, in fact I haven't had the head off the motor since 2005.

Hummmm, I just might take a look inside, and clean out the carbon buildup in the head this weekend. Wonder what it looks like after 6000 miles of hard use? Just what I need, another project, LOL.

Have fun,

 

[mason_man]

Thanks for all the info. I'm getting ready to tap 8mm headbolts in a WC1 cylinder. Quenton can you tell me what my tork should be. Thanks Ray

 

[Quenton Guenther]

8 MM in aluminum should be 180 inch pounds. Might consider using 5/16 instaed of 8 MM as it is slightly smaller [.00246"], common, and much less costly.

BTW torque is the same on both 8 Mm & 5/16" bolts.

Have fun,

 

[mason_man]

Thanks Quenton.