Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas Motorized Bicycle.

worksmanFL · May 26, 2011

Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

THE CAVEAT IS 20 MPH MAX!

I wish I did this sooner.

Some posters said:
- im going to go get the court docs...(3 weeks ago)
- im going to talk to my police commander and then get the FL. Atty. General in the conversation...(2 days ago)

I got tired of the BS banter, so I decided to CUT TO THE CHASE.

For all you non believers out there, here you go:
(from email correspondence)

RE: Confirming Drivers License is NOT Required for Driving Gas Motorized Bicycles
Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:19 AM
From: "Fox, Shaleiah" <[email protected]>
To: (omitted)

Good morning,

If the motorized bicycle does not operated faster than 20 miles per hour, you do not have to have a regular driver license.

Best Regards,

Shaleiah Fox, MSW, MPA
Operations and Management Consultant II
P) 850/617.2547
F) 850/617.5172

From: (omitted)
Sent: May 26, 2011 8:42 AM
To: HSMV-Info
Subject: Confirming Drivers License is NOT Required for Driving Gas Motorized Bicycles

Hi,

I am doing some research and I am writing to confirm that a drivers license is NOT required for driving a gas motorized bicycle.

As of @ 04/20/2011 the law/ procedure changed, page 28

http://www3.flhsmv.gov/DMV/Proc/TL/TL-10.PDF

Being that a gas motorized bicycle is now classified as a bicycle and NOT a moped, I want to confirm that a DRIVERS LICENSE IS NOT REQUIRED.

Thank you.
Respectfully,
(omitted)"

You like apples?

How do you like them apples!!!

Well if you don't know, well now you know.

dance1

SANGESF · May 27, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

Been conversing with Ms. Fox and she has told me that it can not be capable of traveling more than 20mph, as referenced in the (electric) bicycle statute 316.003(2).
Basically, electric or gas doesn't matter, just as long as it's not capable of greater than 20mph speeds on motor power alone.

She will be sending me correspondence (on signed, official FL HSMV letterhead) stating as such (along with the other info that we need) and once received, I will take pics of it, for others to print out.

P.S. She told me that the "does not operated" part should have read...
"does not (have the ability to be) operated"

worksmanFL · May 27, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

SANGESF said:
Been conversing with Ms. Fox and she has told me that it can not be capable of traveling more than 20mph, as referenced in the (electric) bicycle statute 316.003(2).
Basically, electric or gas doesn't matter, just as long as it's not capable of greater than 20mph speeds on motor power alone.

She will be sending me correspondence (on signed, official FL HSMV letterhead) stating as such (along with the other info that we need) and once received, I will take pics of it, for others to print out.

P.S. She told me that the "does not operated" part should have read...
"does not (have the ability to be) operated"

Hi Francis,

Cool.

Sounds good to me.

Peace.

SANGESF · Jun 1, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

I am still in conversations with 3 different people at the DMV.. (Including Ms. Shaleiah Fox, referenced above).
They are all giving me DIFFERENT answers...

I have now Email'd all three (together) to get to a final consensus on all of this...

When I'm done, I'll post the emails..

P.S. I have also CC'd their respective supervisors as to also get a consensus from them.

*** EDIT: This in in regards to engine size and speed capabilities. ***

Fulltimer · Jun 1, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

It already is settled. Has been for awhile now. Leave it alone for Gods sake.

Terry

SANGESF · Jun 1, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

It's far from settled (at least in my mind and those PM'ing me) when I get one person at the DMV that says, only capable of 20mph, another one saying capable of up to 30mph and yet another that says doesn't matter as long as engine size is 49cc or less.

I think it warrants COMPLETE INVESTIGATION, so the police don't try to use a "loophole"..
Hopefully I will soon receive ALL the information AND have it all on Official, Signed, Letterhead from the DMV and post it here for all to print out and keep with them.
Fair enough?

My ultimate plan is to run a hybrid system of gas and electric, where the gas engine runs an alternator with a step up transformer to recharge the electric battery as well as run the bicycle.
Sound like a good plan?

worksmanFL · Jun 1, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

SANGESF said:
It's far from settled (at least in my mind and those PM'ing me) when I get one person at the DMV that says, only capable of 20mph, another one saying capable of up to 30mph and yet another that says doesn't matter as long as engine size is 49cc or less.

I think it warrants COMPLETE INVESTIGATION, so the police don't try to use a "loophole"..
Hopefully I will soon receive ALL the information AND have it all on Official, Signed, Letterhead from the DMV and post it here for all to print out and keep with them.
Fair enough?

My ultimate plan is to run a hybrid system of gas and electric, where the gas engine runs an alternator with a step up transformer to recharge the electric battery as well as run the bicycle.
Sound like a good plan?

Fair Enough. That sounds good Sangesf. For real.

The thing is I hope "we" don't shoot ourselves in the foot, as this can backfire too.

In your requests to the DMV, have you asked that the info. come from Julie L. Jones, - Executive Director? (I think shes top big wig.) (I only sent my email to the dmv email for general questions.)

Maybe you can ask her where to find it on their website (or give you the website link) as well, after their update.

Peace.

SANGESF · Jun 1, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

One of the CC:s I already had, was the executive director email addy..

SANGESF · Jun 1, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

I'll have a preliminary answer in the morning.. I'm sure I have to respond to a few emails that will have incorrect information, before I get the true answer...

There is no way to "shoot ourselves in the foot".. Whatever the answer is. As a matter of fact, maybe this will help "push" them into actually adding the gas part in the statutes/PDFs sooner!

Thud · Jun 2, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

edit: after reading that desc. on pg 28....your golden to 20mph.

& it looks like FL is not looking for a deluge of moped license requests.

SANGESF · Jun 3, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

Ok, no response from the DMV team as of yet..

However, I HAVE gotten two letters from the HSMV, unfortunately NEITHER of them say anything about license...

Both letters are useless.. All they say is that you are allowed to ride an electric or gas bicycle if you're over 16 and that's it.. Nothing about registration or license.

And of course, the two people that sent them are on vacation for two weeks..

I did get an email response from the executive director, telling me, that she'll have one of her direct subordinates get back to me via email or phone..

Here is the main part of that correspondence..

Thank you for contacting the Executive Director regarding your inquiries relating to registration and licensing of gas powered bicycles.* I have asked someone in our Division of Motorist Services that handles both of these inquiries to contact you concerning this issue.* Again, thank* you for your email.

*

Julie Jones

Executive Director

SANGESF · Jun 6, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

Well, here is the response to the question I asked about the (lack of) registration allowed on bicycles with a gas motor..

Executive Director Julie Jones has asked me to respond to your email dated*
June 2, 2011, regarding bicycle license requirements.*

Bicycles are not manufactured for use on highways. *Adding a gas powered motor does not make a bicycle street legal, as there are other requirements that must be met, such as frame assembly and safety features. *Bicycles are not titled or registered.*

Sincerely,
SANDRA C. LAMBERT, Director
Division of Driver Licenses

So..apparently the reason you can't register a bicycle with a gas motor, is because a bicycle with a gas motor does not have the required safety equipment to allow it's use on the road.

P.S. I've asked for further clarification with some added questions, as follows...
Ms. Adams,

I am confused...

On one hand you state that adding a gas powered motor does not make a bike street legal, but in the next paragraph, you state that Florida statutes permit a person to operate a bicycle that cannot propel faster then 20mph, without a DL.

Can you see where I am confused?
A gas powered motor (incapable of greater than 20mph) does not make it street legal, but the statutes say an electric bicycle with the same stipulations does make it street legal.

As you can see, there seems to be confusion when asking specifically about gas powered motors on bicycles...

The assumption I have is that if you add a gas powered motor to a bicycle, it's not street legal, but if you add an electric motor, it is. (According to 316.003(2))

I have asked specific questions and as of yet, no one has been able to give me specific answers...

If you can, please provide specific answers to each of the below questions....
The following questions are still unclear...

1.) What size gas powered engine is allowed on a bicycle.
Answer:??

1a.) If a bicycle has a 49cc engine, is there a Class E Drivers License required?

Answer:??

2.) Is there any situation that would allow the use of a gas powered engine on a bicycle without the need for a Class E DL.
Answer:??

3.) If a bicycle with an electric helper motor that allows it to be capable of greater than 20mph need a Class E Drivers License?

Answer:??

P.S. I sent this to everyone I've been corresponding with in the HSMV, including one of their lawyers, the executive director, director of motorist services and a few others.

worksmanFL · Jun 7, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

SANGESF said:
I'll have a preliminary answer in the morning.. I'm sure I have to respond to a few emails that will have incorrect information, before I get the true answer...

There is no way to "shoot ourselves in the foot".. Whatever the answer is. As a matter of fact, maybe this will help "push" them into actually adding the gas part in the statutes/PDFs sooner!

There is no way to "shoot ourselves in the foot"?
...Whatever the answer is?

Looks like thats what EXACTLY happened.

Sigh...

motorbiker · Jun 7, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

worksmanFL said:
There is no way to "shoot ourselves in the foot"?
...Whatever the answer is?

Looks like thats what EXACTLY happened.

Sigh...

Keep this up and we will get them to outlaw ebikes in Florida too.

Not many people understand this but the Florida ebike thing got slipped in there because of the Calif electric car laws. A # of all cars sold had to be electric.

They could sell ebikes instead of electric cars and still follow the law so they worked real hard to get those electric bike laws all over the US.

They got rid of those laws in Calif for cars but the electric bike laws stayed for many states.

You think Rick Scott or any of the local cops know this ? ? ?

motorbiker · Jun 7, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

I am not sure this helps either. Clearwater store finds its niche by marketing 'DUI scooters' - St. Petersburg Times

DUI Scooter

SANGESF · Jun 9, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

Re: Howdy
All,

** This is the final word direct from the Executive Director at the Florida HSMV (DMV)...

Emails over a weeks time have gotten these answers...

Good Afternoon,
*
I will address your latest concerns . . . in red, below.
*
You stated . . .
Ms. Adams,
*
I am confused . . .
*
On one hand you state that adding a gas powered motor does not make a bike street legal, but in the next paragraph, you state that Florida Statutes permit a person to operate a bicycle that cannot propel faster than 20mph, without a DL.
*
Response: *Ms. Adams/Ms. Lambert stated:
*
“Bicycles are not manufactured for use on highways. *Adding a gas powered motor does not make a bicycle street legal, as there are other requirements that must be met, such as frame assembly and safety features. *Bicycles are not titled or registered.
*
Florida Statutes permits a person to operate a bicycle that cannot propel faster than 20 miles per hour, without a regular Class E driver license.”
*
To elaborate, Florida Statutes permits a person, if at least 16 years old, to operate a bicycle with an electric helper-motor (not gas powered because gas powered bicycles are not street legal and cannot be ridden on the streets) not capable of propelling the bicycle faster than 20 mph on level ground (322.03(1), 322.01(26) and 316.003(2))
*
I have asked specific questions and as of yet, no one has been able to give me specific answers . . .
*
If you can, please provide specific answers to each of the below questions . . . .
The following questions are still unclear . . .
*
1. * * * What size gas powered engine is allowed on a bicycle.

Answer: *None, legally.

1a. *If a bicycle has a 49cc engine, is there a Class E drivers license required?
Answer: *Gas powered bicycles are not legally allowed on the road.

2. * * * Is there any situation that would allow the use of a gas powered engine on a bicycle without the need for a Class E DL?

Answer: *See answer to 1a, above.

3. * * * If a bicycle with an electric helper motor that allows it to be capable of greater than 20mph need a Class E drivers license?

Answer: *Yes.

*
If you have additional questions, please don’t hesitate to contact me directly at 850.617.2528, or the FRTP Program Manager, Kip Bickford, at 863.419.3420 (ext. 2).
*
*
BE SAFE, HAVE FUN – ENJOY THE RIDE!!
FLORIDA RIDER TRAINING PROGRAM
Bureau of Motorist Compliance
2900 Apalachee Parkway
Room A201, Mail Station #88
Tallahassee, Florida *32399
(850) 617-2528
Fax. 850-617-5172
Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles - Florida Rider Training Program

I WANTED to use a gas motor..
HAD to make SURE I could, without a license or registration.
That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.
I was HOPING to get a different answer, than I did.
Didn't turn out that way.
Every time I was told I didn't need a license or registration, I asked the person at the DMV to send me an official, signed document stating as such, so that in case I was ever pulled over, I had the paperwork to substantiate my right to ride a gas powered bicycle on public roads without a license or registration.

When I DID finally receive a letter (actually two) from the people who stated I didn't need a license, the letter stating NOTHING about a gas motor or drivers license. When I asked for a letter with statements including gas and no license, I was told to email their supervisor for that..
That turned into going up the ladder at the DMV, little by little, until I broke down and just emailed the Executive Director. The Executive Director, sent my email to her direct subordinate who gave me the answers I posed and posted here.

There is no anti-gas here, just someone who wants the facts about the laws and legislation without "gray areas" or conjecture. There seems to be a lot of people with the "nudge, nudge - wink, wink" / "kill the engine and pedal" attitudes.. Why go through all of that and just find out the facts of the law and follow them or if you don't like them, have them changed.

Simple as that... No "ulterior motive" agenda, no anti gas sentiment.

P.S. I just received the letter on Official, Signed, HSMV Letterhead stating specifically...
Gas motor added to a bicycle is NOT street legal. The only motor allowed is an electric motor that can not be CAPABLE of propelling the bicycle at speeds greater than 20mph.

treyoh5 · Jun 9, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

"Teacher! you forgot to give us homework!"

ugh, always hated that guy in school...

SANGESF · Jun 13, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

Here is the letter...

This was the info given to me by the Director of Motorist Services and was written up and sent from her secretary.

If you wish to ask any other questions or have any disagreements with this letter, the number is on that document that you can call.

Here is the Directors info, should you want to contact her..
SANDRA C. LAMBERT, Director
Division of Driver Licenses

TxBikeRider · Jun 13, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

What about the Executive Director.....why contact someone whos name appears nowhere on the letter. Or even better.....forget the letter and list the legislation.

SANGESF · Jun 13, 2011

Re: Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas MB.

TxBikeRider said:
What about the Executive Director.....why contact someone whos name appears nowhere on the letter. Or even better.....forget the letter and list the legislation.

The executive director will send you to her direct subordinate, the director of motorist services, who will answer your questions through email and will have her secretary send you a letter highlighting the responses to your email inquiries..
(This was the process I went through - all of the questions and answers I received have been posted for all to see)

This has been beaten up enough on various threads..

Let's start with a little bit of reference material before we can get to the on topic part of this thread.

The legislation is...
Definition of a moped is a bicycle with a gas motor on it. (In Statutes)
Registration of moped (gas powered bike by definition) is required. (In Statutes)
The DMV will not register a gas powered bike because of DOT safety requirements needed to make it usable on public roads. (Procedural document TL-10 as of April 2011)

If the state says registration is required and the DMV won't register it, it won't be allowed on public roads. (As per letter from DMV).
P.S. Don't say the DMV is correct when they say no registration is allowed, and then say their wrong when they say you can't use it on public roads..
You have to accept everything they say, not just the parts someone would like to be true.

The below part is the part that references the above info as to being on topic.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
If you somehow can register it (as a homemade moped), you would then need a DL to ride it. (In Statutes)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Better yet, have Shileah Fox (the person at the DMV who stated you CAN ride a gas powered bike on public roads WITHOUT a DL) send you a letter on Official DMV letterhead, stating as such...
(i.e. I tried that already and received a letter from her stating nothing referencing gas motors and registration or Licensing - In fact, the only thing regarding licensing that was written in the letter, stated a bicycle with an ELECTRIC motor can be used without a DL as long as it's not capable of 20mph)

Florida Drivers License N O T Required to Drive a Gas Motorized Bicycle.

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