The best condidate for a motor bicycle build

xseler said:

'Most' people dipping their toes into this hobby most likely want to see if they will like it before laying out a boatload of money. This describes me. I already had a relatively new Huffy cruiser and got a kit before I found this forum. I guess I was lucky that I picked a good kit (66cc Skyhawk) and had turned a wrench or two. So far, I couldn't be happier with the result. After finding this forum, there are some things that I would have done differently, but they've caused no issues so far.

This is kinda like any other hobby --- you've got to know a little about what's going on, or you're gonna get hurt or spend more money than necessary. Just my opinion.

Click to expand...

I agree, it just hurts to see the countless new topics about problems that inevitably leads back to the bike.

Ironically, or perhaps appropriately, I just got another brand new build from another local builder with the exact stuff I have been talking about.

Pretty bike right?
The buyer thought this Huffy Del Nusso was neat.



It is not even through the first 1/2 gallon break in mix and he brought it by for me to look because it was making 'clunking sounds' and kept throwing drive chain.

Anyone care to guess what the problem(s) are?

Well as usual with a Huffy the back wheel self destructed.





And what says 'rookie builder' or just flat 'lazy guy' than this front mount?



That engine mount is a bad joke and it moved around back and forth with little effort when it should be rock solid.

ANyway, this is my point about starting with something that will hold up and taking the time to install it properly.

So here its in the bay today so we can yank the engine and put on real mounts, and of course rebuild that back wheel.
Gonna cost him ~$150.



Just keep that in mind when you shop $100 bikes and build poorly.

biknut said:

For $100 though if you're just considering it being a frame, and a few other parts, that's not a bad deal.

You're going to need to buy a new rear wheel for almost any bike.

Click to expand...

let's agree to disagree.
I build on bikes that have good back wheels.

All pictured did look due to over tightening.

""I build on bikes that have good back wheels. "" KCvale. Please elaborate , which bikes have good back wheels and or front wheels?
steel or alloy wheels, steel or alloy frame?
does anyone even make a bike that has wheels made to exceed human power, without modification and still be affordable?

I plan on building another bike and it will have a 4 stroke engine, either a Honda 50 or another HS142 49cc.

and those good back wheels you refer to , can't they be installed on a cheap strong steel frame?

Looks to me that the builder tightened the rear axle bearings too tight when they put the coaster brake arm back on after mounting the sprocket( not knowing how to properly do it).. you really can't blame that on the price or origin of the bike itself, can you? even a good wheel hub will evaporate if you do that to it.

biknut said:

...For $100 though if you're just considering it being a frame, and a few other parts, that's not a bad deal.

You're going to need to buy a new rear wheel for almost any bike.

Click to expand...

Odd as it may seem I agree fully, the exact same components that need upgrading on a $100 bike need to be upgraded on a $200 - $250 box store bike.

There is very little difference between the two in quality. No additional care has been taken in frame design or manufacture, they've the same type rims, the same questionable components in general, the only real differences are in selection and gearing - a mountain bike w/cheese front shocks and/or multispeed instead of a coaster, maybe two brakes instead of jus' the one.

Granted, that extra $100 might offer a slightly better frame welds, but if you don't examine them there's no guarantee by price alone, the quality is still just as random with the second cheapest on the rack as it is the cheapest.

You can try to scrimp a few pennies here & there, you can tell yourself if it costs more it must be better, that you'll not need to upgrade anything because you got "this" generic instead of "that" generic but the fact remains no box store bicycle is perfectly suited for motorization without some improvement, most importantly the wheelset.

If anything those "$200" box store bikes are more likely to come with the dreaded single-wall alloy rims then the steel the even cheaper ones have, which are just as likely to fail as a $100 frame, or more so. Both have the worst quality components, the cheaper less of them is all (brakes, shifters etc).

It doesn't matter what bike you buy, you're buying a frame - everything else is pretty much either an accessory or will need some manner of modification or upgrade - I'd happily ride a Huffy IF the wheelset had been swapped out, brakes improved & frame examined for uniform welding, all the same things I've done with any other bike of any other price.

They're like any other low-ball retailer selling cheap crap - they know full well if ya slap a few stickers on it, jack up the price a bit, add a little hype & folks will be sure they're getting more for their money.

Start with a solid frame & build from there, don't kid yourself that a $100 price tag one way or the other is really going to make much of a difference. At the very least if you want a safer bike, you'll be buying a wheelset.

trialnerror said:

...does anyone even make a bike that has wheels made to exceed human power, without modification and still be affordable?

I plan on building another bike and it will have a 4 stroke engine, either a Honda 50 or another HS142 49cc...

Click to expand...

Many of the competitive (middlin' to high-end) downhill/mountain bikes come with wheels strong enough for what we're doing, but the rest of the bike far too costly for the sake of the wheels & it's rare to find one suitable for an engine (frame room).

Never fear though, it's an easy upgrade & I've really taken a liking to both the 'Alex Rims' & 'Weinmann' brands as they're both quite good quality for the price. I've had a few in different sizes & on different bikes at this point, all of which may have been subject to abuses better left unmentioned lol - yet in the thousands of miles accumulated & perhaps a *cough* few incidents, they're not just undamaged I've not even needed to true them!

Such is the wonder of stiff, double wall aluminum rims heh, both Alex & Weinmann seem near identical in quality BTW & here's some links for ya - I've included the manufacturer's Amazon link to display all of the various options like rim only, wheel, sets, brake & spoke count as well as some of what I'm currently running if you're curious;

Alex Rims (or Alexrims): http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_sporting-goods?ie=UTF8&field-brandtextbin=Alex+Rims&node=3375251


Alex DX32 26" (I've both the 26" linked & the 20"s pictured, but Amazon doesn't seem to have the 20"s).

Weinmann: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_sporting-goods?ie=UTF8&field-brandtextbin=Weinmann&node=3375251


Weinmann Disc Bull (disc only) 26"

I'd like to make this post brief, Someone earlier asked why bother with a quality frame, when a Huffy-WallyWorld bike is "good enough".

Two things, maybe even three. the first being weld quality

...back in the 80's, bikes were in a weight war to see how light and strong a bike could be using steel cro-moly alloys. There were all sorts of attempts by the tubing venders of the time to reduce weight without sacrificing strength.

But the only sane way to do it was to use 'butted tubing' which means the tubes have their ends thicker walled than their middle sections, which increases the modulus of strength and elasticity right where the tubes would be welded together. And with that reduced wall thickness in the middle it saved weight, even in relatively heavier MTB bikes.

Welding tubes became sort of an arcane art with proponents of TIG, Fillet brazing, and lugged all having equal legitimate techniques for keeping the finished frame strength high while reducing weight. TIG especially came into it's own in the late 80's-early 90's, because the Far East manufacturing robots could whip out a decent Cro-Moly frame in butted tubing that would rival most hand built ones for half to third of the cost. Consequently some of the best standard Cro-Moly steel MTB bikes came from Taiwan makers for cost and value.

Secondly a true diamond frame is always superior in strength to a frame made of curved tubes because of the triangulation of the welds and the lack of distortion of the tubing by mandreling in a curved tubeset.

And if you are looking for decent, inexpensive bike for motorizing you can't go wrong with one of these ancient examples from the early days of MTB bike makers. Yeah, there will be a lack of suspension forks for these, but the frame and metalwork construction will be twice to 3 times as good as anything coming out of wally world and all you have to do is lurk on Craigslist for the 80's~90's bikes that sometimes surface. Sometimes they will have trashed components but if you are lucky you'll find a well preserved one. Being mechanically inclined and a decent bargain hunter will benefit this effort. Also check the frame head-down and top tubes for buckling and fork damage.

So the post wasn't brief, But I will say this. I don't understand this beef about the welded on rack issue with Huffy's, when the rest of the bike frame is such a poorly made piece of low grade crap steel. Really the frame is the heart of a bike, and a great old frame, even if a bit scabby and paint scuffed, would still beat a new bike from Wally world in the real world.

Thank you BarelyAwake.

I went to the Weinmann product site. they have the Rim I was looking for, the DHL42, for the dimensions.

IMHO:
The best candidate for a MB is a quality bare frame.
Choose your style and brand......

I like cruisers.

Look for quality ( TIG ) welds . Not robotic welds.......
I like steel frames but a good alloy frame can be a good candidate .

The frame is the foundation .
Then add the quality parts you deem necessary to complete your build.
Brakes would be my second most essential component.
Good quality bearings my third.

Most box store bikes have very poor brakes if any at all.
And some have no provision to add front brakes ( crazy IMHO )
I will add: Coaster brakes are a BAD IDEA for the obvious reasons.......

Look If you are planning on replacing every component of your cheep $100
bike, then spend the same $100 on a good used frame and build a proper MB.

The end cost will be the same but the results will be better/ safer and will last longer.

The fact that a bike frame is heavier than another doesn't make it better or stronger.
It just means it's made of lower quality material . Mild steel vs. Chromo. etc.
This doesn't make it stiffer or more prone to vibration tolerance.
The opposite is true.

My mantra : Build safe / Ride safe / be safe and don't be annoying......

I have been a builder of fast fire breathing toys all my life.
( Owner : Resurrection Iron Works)
I have found that the guys who are always looking for the cheap build are the same guys that end up in the ditch.
I hate the ditch, you should to.......

boxcar-

you are right- "Build safe / Ride safe / be safe and don't be annoying......"

On safe builds, almost all parts on a MB will have been swapped out at one time or another- leaving you with the only original part being the frame and maybe the forks.

but even those extra parts left over, from a bought box store bike, and or a bike store bike,, can be used on a real pedal-bike for the rest of the family that don't motor scoot. just so we don't think those Replaced parts are a waste. extra wheels, cranks n pedals, handle bars, are good to have around, for the OTHER bikes. For the same hundred bucks.

trialnerror said:

boxcar-

you are right- "Build safe / Ride safe / be safe and don't be annoying......"

On safe builds, almost all parts on a MB will have been swapped out at one time or another- leaving you with the only original part being the frame and maybe the forks.

but even those extra parts left over, from a bought box store bike, and or a bike store bike,, can be used on a real pedal-bike for the rest of the family that don't motor scoot. just so we don't think those Replaced parts are a waste. extra wheels, cranks n pedals, handle bars, are good to have around, for the OTHER bikes. For the same hundred bucks.

Click to expand...

Great point! Really. And I build with cheap, wally world bikes and don't replace parts until they need be. I even use the studs when I have used China girl kits.

My 3rd build was a wally world Point Beach. I did not use the rear wheel as it is a pain to center. Years later I had used it on a 4 smoke build and ripped out the spokes. I took it apart and the bearing cage was spaghetti but the thing had thousands and thousands of miles on it.

Saves money to build right the first time but still buying the cheap bikes.

It's not that I am cheap. It's that I am lazy. snork

So your idea is to let the rest of your family ride around on parts and components that you, yourself
have decided are of poor quality.

You have fun in that ditch. Jed.

Have never once had a failure of that magnitude. I have been adding CG's to bikes since 2005 or so and building DIY's for about 6 years. Not one has put me off the bike with the exception of a front fender. That was one of the best and most harty store bought secured fenders I have had come with a bicycle. (MoonDog)

Think I some how annoyed you but did mean that I agreed with you. Text thing does some times get convoluted so no worries. Just a conversation.

Sorry if I seem'd annoyed , I wasen't. It was just a late night and an early morning.
I had an idea after I wrote my last post.
It seem'd to be a put up or shut up moment.
So I went and snatched up an old Huffy Santa Fe 2 that my wife drug home last week.

As we have all come to the conclusion that the running gear needs to be replaced anyway.
I won't be going into that side of the bike in to much detail.

I am in the process of dismantling it to bare frame as we speak.

THIN THIN handle bars. I was able to bend them out of shape with my hands and very little effort......
Fenders and worst of all fender stays and struts are mild steel / rusty and cracked...
Steel wheels and 14 ga spokes coaster brakes and cheap tires ----- nuf sed .
No provision for front brakes .... or any thing in the rear other than coasters.
This is an expensive problem for most.
The $100 bargain is now an expensive conversion...
The cheapest way to go ( in my mind ) would be long reach caliper brakes.
Not a great braking system.
If one buys a good set of Shimano's etc. that have ridged frames , I'd ride it.
Other than that it's welding / brazing time.... I know what I charge per hour.....
The crank is a 1 pc. steel crank , 46 tooth with cheap cage bearings....... Not much to say about that...

Now on to the frame :

I will use my Centrex frame as an alternative as I consider it to be of (what I call ) good quality . ( At least for a gas bike build.)
I'll have to set up my camera and document this , it may take a while .
I am after all old and slow......
Cheers.

Very cool BoxCar. Looking forward to your findings. Projects like this are great fun! And always surprising and interesting.

All about the learning and sharing. Don't think put up or, is a thing here. More "Wait, wut?" sort of deal.


LOL, but I am almost always lost.

Good to here from ya Dan.
I'm digin this . Trust me.......
Ok , on to the frames:

As you can see, the frames are of identical size and dimension 19" frames.
Same color even.



I'd say the paint on the Huffy is of better quality as it shows very little sign of chipping
and or scratching . ( Trust me , this bike frame has not been babied.)
The Centrix paint will chip if you look at it to long....

The weld quality on the Huffy is of poor to very poor quality .
It was robotically welded . And the robot was in a hurry.
Cold welds abound on this thing.
That means poor to no penetration. Not a good thing.







[/IMG]

I can only post 5 pics at a time . This may take a while.

The Centrix on the other hand is a hand welded frame. Tig welded to be exact.
Nice even welds , no cold spots or under cut.

The huffy uses mild steel tubing with no taper.
Centrix is a Chrome Molly full taper frame.

Huffy:


Centrix:



The Huffy ( as a coaster brake bike ) has no cable bungs on the frame.
The Centrix has them in all the right places.



The forks on the Huffy ( if they were set up for brakes) would be great.
Some of the best welds on the bike.
They are straight tube forks of BMX style.
The Centrix have full taper ( brake equipped ) cruiser forks of good quality.



I'll let you guys decide.
As an engineer and a long time builder I think you know where I stand.
By the way.
The Centrix cost me $2 at the local scrap yard. The Huffy was $5 at the same yard....
Cheers.....