Law for Washigton riders

Richirich - Thanks for doing all the research. Jim had told me that Augie called him to tell him the laws had changed. Of course Augie said it was our fault or something like that...which is preposterous. We are continuing to research electric options for WA and other states. My buttock injury and now winter put a temporary hold on testing. Contact us if interested in local testing.

Having argued this from every angle possible I would say before you build one I would go to the city, county and state levels, police department and explain what you want to do and get a letter of clearance from every one of them and the business card of the officers who said it was ok so if you go to court you have the proof that you were told by someone that it was legal.

Remember that the court only deals in facts, not I was told by ?????. Cost me a lot to learn this first hand.

Then as Mr. Rockenstein said I would go to a lawyer and get his opinion no matter what he charges since you will need him to get you out of a possibly very messy situation.

Any short cut and you will pay the price. Heck of a lot just to ride a motorized bicycle legally isn't it?

Steve.

Thanks so much for the quick responses! And thanks again, Richirich, for all the hard work put into research. Too bad it's such a pain in the glutei to get something simple done. What I get out of all this is that it's okay to ride one until it's not. *scratches head

I will check the local MB laws the old fashioned way, on foot. The trouble is I work nights and have a hard time doing anything during business hours so it may not get done very soon. But I will try and, if happen I find any key info that hasn't already been discovered (on this thread), then I will post it here to help out the next confused batch of potential MB riders.

I just can't believe that it is this hard to legally ride something that has been around longer than cars have! Yarrrg.

To ride one in WA state legally you need to look at the requirements of the law. Don't wanna look at the page, but I think its like turn signals and stuff like that, <50cc and yadda yadda. Then you go and try to convince the nice people at the DMV to register it as a moped.

Sry mrB,

"I hope somebody knows the answer. *I need a link or something definite* (i.e. not a semantic debate about bicycles, motors, nuclear powered shopping carts, bigfoot, etc)."

I can't speak for anyone else, not even a little bit, but I'm a tax protester.
Taxation is the power to destroy and I resent it. a lot.
Tax protest... It's an American tradition.

The best way to avoid most the debates on nuclear shopping carts and bigfoot on a bicycle is to go to your local tax collector with a bucket of money, and then begin preparing to give them more, along the way.

Paying blood money to one group of thugs does NOT release you from being preyed upon by other highwaymen. It merely identifies you as an easy mark.

I really do wish you the best
rc

In your post @ 9:45 this morning, from Rachel @ DOL
"We do not title or registered the bicycle."
From your post @ 9:52 from WASP
"In either case a bicycle with a gas engine would have to be licensed"

The problem is that DOL can't title or register, and you have to have them to license it.
I would think a Lawyer could make a convincing arguement that Olympia doesn't have it's shift together.

I talked to an officer here in Sequim and he said they aren't doing anything unless the operator is doing something stoopid, and then they check them out.

I've been trying to get into this...... interesting hobby for a couple months and decided to take the cautious route and find out about the laws. I'd have to say that after calling around 10x, navigating the web, I came to the same conclusion that RichiRich did. That is - the closest thing to a motorized bicycle is a moped, so that's what it is classified as. But there is a problem with that, and that is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to register it as a moped. My conversation with the various agencies goes like this:

DOL: Hi, this is the Washington Dept. of Licensing - how may I help you?
Me: I have a bicycle with a 49cc engine on it, do I need to register it?
DOL: We don't register bicycles, you'd better talk to the WASP and ask them about an inspection.
Me: Ok, I'll call them, thanks.

.........

WASP: This is the Washington State Patrol, what is your question?
Me: I was referred from the DOL to you about a question on whether my 49cc motorized bicycle is legal.
WASP: That's classified as a moped, you'll have to register it with the DOL.

........

DOL: How may I help you?
Me: I'd like to register a moped.
DOL: Ok, I'm going to need the make, model, bill of sale and VIN.
Me: It's a bicycle with a 49cc engine.
DOL: We don't register bicycles, you'd better talk to the WASP and ask them about an inspection.

And so it goes on......

So, how I understand it, you'd literally have to buy a wrecked moped off of craigslist, cut the VIN off and put it on your bike, put stickers of whatever make the moped was on your bike and then bring the bill of sale and all that to the DOL and fill out a form for a moped registration. ARGHHHHHH

This is incredibly stupid and a testament to just how inflexible the bureacracies are in this country. How am I supposed to do something that is impossible!?!? Finally, after being juggled around for hours, I just flat out told them that I was in an infinite loop. Their response can just as well be summed up as: "I DUNNO" I'd also talked to several cops I met while being stopped for a ticket and they just said the same thing.

Well group, I guess you now have the meaning of my last post. Like here in Canada you have to go to every level of Government and every level of the Police where ever you live and get a letter and a card from the officer who told you it was legal.
As Richirich said good luck with that.

Nobody in their right mind is going to put themselves out on the line and risk their career by putting their name to the paper they give you saying it's OK. Would you?

Since I'm 68 years old and have a lifelong history of poking very angry bears in the backside with very short sticks I speak with a little bit of knowledge mostly learned in court as a young man. I did smarten up as I got older.
You sure can fight City Hall but your chances of winning are slim.

I keep hearing from new members about what is legal where they live?
Then I hear that one level of their State/Province's police said it was illegal and the another level said they don't know or care. Really!!!! They can slap you with a potential of hundreds or thousands of dollars of fines, look like a hero in their detachment and advance up the ladder and they don't care?
Please I have a cousin who was in the Ontario Provincial Police in Ontario, Canada and I was married to a police woman from Iowa.

Save that B.S. for the uneducated. They have the ability to call up every law on their computer. The only thing that may save you is that they choose not to push it.

Steve.

richirich said:

Must meet FMVSS for motor-driven cycle (RCW 46.61.720)

Click to expand...

Motor driven cycle implies self propelled. China Girls fail that test.

I'm wondering what the definition of a motor vehicle is in Washington. In many states they are defined as being "any self propelled vehicle".

I'll explain how we ride free here in Texas, and you can decide if it applies to Washington.

First off, nowhere in Texas law are gas powered motor bicycles specifically mentioned. When I called the police department, I was told a motor bicycle would be considered an unregistered moped. Unregistered because it's impossible to register a bicycle in Texas because no VIN.

I then called the Texas DMV. They had no clue, but gave me a number for the Texas DPS motorcycle safety division. I was informed by them that there's no provision in Texas law for gas powered motor bicycles. When the law for mopeds was written, motor bicycles weren't known about, or considered by the lawmakers. They said motor bicycles are a gray area, but weren't forthcoming with the reason why.

Before making that call I already had done some due diligence, and found out that in Texas, all motor vehicles are considered self propelled. Only motor vehicles are required to be registered, and if it's not a motor vehicle you don't need a license for it.

Self propelled means the vehicle has to be capable of driving off under it's own power. Since it's not clear that a China Girl style motor bicycle is capable of doing that without at least some initial peddling from a dead stop, that puts it in the gray area of the law. when I ask if that was the reason, the answer after some hesitation was yes.

it turns out there's never been a challenge in Texas court about a motor bicycle needing to be licensed. No prosecutor wants to take a chance of losing a challenge and setting presedent for the state.

In actual practice, even though I was told by my local police department that a motor bicycle is illegal to ride anywhere on the street or sidewalk, I ride anywhere at will and have never been pulled over by any of the 7 different police forces I've come across in the last year and a half.

Even though this same situation applies in different states, the enforcement is not universal. In Florida the law is the same as Texas, but people are being pulled over and ticketed for riding without a license, but so far every court challenge has been dismissed without reason. Of course if you just pay the ticket, they keep your money.

The same thing may apply in Washington, or it may not. Don't just believe what the authorities tell you, because they can be wrong, just like in Texas. Read the actual law for yourself and decide.

I really feel badly when I hear about some circumstance like ONE highwayman in Port Angeles that may strike fear into a law abiding citizen just wanting to get by with a simple life...

Facts as they are, a system has been constructed up around us that is so very complicated and impervious it would be an easier fight to take on the waffen ss.

There's caselaw out there that says although the individual states are entitled to make their own laws for application within their borders, laws must be uniform within our union of the states, and have conformity, so a citizen can travel freely from, and to, various areas of our land, as need be.
It is among the things that keep our land strong.
No work in one area, you may travel to another where workers are needed. Simple, and common sense.

It gets emotional and political because it's the less fortunate in society that suffer the most. The wealthy just pay the fees and pass the cost on to someone else. A lear jet is most likely a tax write-off!

Good luck on your search for clarity in WA statutes and ordnances...
If you are unable to spend a bunch of time in the court system it would probably be wise to buy a moped or motorcycle.

Best
rc

richirich said:

You see , the problem is that the new RCW's of WA left out the part "being self propelled" so as to be anything with a ICE must be considered at least a moped/ motorcycle depending on engine size.

Moped (RCW 46.04.304)
"Moped" means a motorized device designed to travel with not more than three wheels in contact
with the ground and having an electric or a liquid fuel motor with a cylinder displacement not
exceeding fifty cubic centimeters which produces no more than two gross brake horsepower
(developed by a prime mover, as measured by a brake applied to the driving shaft) that is capable
of propelling the device at not more than thirty miles per hour on level ground.

Click to expand...

What's your states definition of a motor vehicle?

richirich said:

RCW 46.04.320

Motor vehicle.




"Motor vehicle" means every vehicle that is self-propelled and every vehicle that is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires, but not operated upon rails. "Motor vehicle" includes a neighborhood electric vehicle as defined in RCW 46.04.357. "Motor vehicle" includes a medium-speed electric vehicle as defined in RCW 46.04.295. An electric personal assistive mobility device is not considered a motor vehicle. A power wheelchair is not considered a motor vehicle. A golf cart is not considered a motor vehicle, except for the purposes of chapter 46.61 RCW.

Ya, it has the self propelled thing but the moped has that covered by the less than 3 wheel thing.

I know ive spent many, many hours trying to come up with some sort of loophole. I dont think anyone(but it could be possible) Has tried to find away around it as much as i have.

Click to expand...

I would say maybe you need to try some more. Aren't they saying a moped is a motor driven cycle? A motor bicycle isn't a moped unless the the law has specific wording that mentions a motor bicycle as also being considered the same as a moped. I haven't seen anything shown so far that said that.

I think the authorities you've contacted have made that assumption, but that probably has never been tested in court. They were trying to say the same thing in Florida until someone actually decided to grow a pair, and challenge it in court. No one has been convicted yet, because all the challenges were dismissed.

I think your situation is the same as Florida, and here in Texas. If it's not self propelled it's probably legal, but you'll have to prove to them you're not going to back down in order to ride free.