fuel octane and oil mixture

oneninesixnine · Dec 21, 2011

Trying not to be irritating, please know that I did research. I found so many contradicting opinions that I was even more confused than before I began researching. Also, a lot of it was over my head (I'm an appliance repair technician, not knowledgeable on gas engines, much less a two-stroke). I've finished a Jet 66cc two-stroke build, stock except for the NGK spark plug, soldered wiring harness, silicone sealed mag coil housing & 1 gallon gas tank. I haven't even gone through the first gallon of gas yet. This is not a show bike. It is a practical, everyday transportation means. The bike is literally my car under all outdoor conditions due to the loss of my vehicles and DL. (Long story. Let's just say I've been sober for a year and a half at this time, one day at a time.) The engine has the CNS-V2 carb of which hasn't been tuned yet. Top speed is not my concern. 30 - 35 mph is plenty fast enough on a bicycle. My concern is reliability and longevity. A lot to expect out of a china girl. The break in period is unclear after researching. ??? I'm currently using premium gas, Lucas semi-synthetic 2-cycle oil, and Sea Foam Motor (Engine) Treatment (Cleaner). one person said he only uses premium. Another said that he uses regular, that regular fires faster and premium fires slower. Another person said premium will overheat the engine. Another person said any additives (cleaners and so on) to the gas besides oil will mess up the engine. Another person said more oil during the breakin period. One person said 8oz of oil per gallon during breakin period and 6oz per gallon thereafter. Another said to use 4oz of oil per gallon or less. And so on and so on. Completely confused. How many gallons is the breakin period? During the breakin period, I need to ride slower to keep the engine from getting as hot, right? What kind of gas? Gas to oil mixture ratio for breakin and thereafter? Will cleaning additives damage the engine? Keep in mind, my focus is reliability and longevity. Thanks in advance for clearing up this confusion.
- 1969

2door · Dec 21, 2011

We always urge using the search feature for subjects like this that have been discussed to death but as you said, there is so much conflicting information available that a search of the subject might provide you with too much information.

Break-in periods, style, and choices of fuel and oil are going to be as varied as the personalities of the members who post their beliefs. There really seems to be no right or wrong way to achieve a good break-in as evident by the success rate of all the ways that you see suggested.

My advice at this point would be to simply use a good quality 2 stroke oil formulated for air cooled engines, mixed at a 24:1 ratio for the first couple of gallons then move down to a 32:1 mix afterwards. This is a generally accepted rule of thumb that can't be disputed.

As for running high octane fuels; there is sufficient evidence that there are no benefits other than making the oil company happy. Go for the cheaper, low octane gasoline and you'll be good to go. If it makes you feel better, use the high priced stuff but don't expect any appreciable power increases.

Good luck, ride safe and I hope this helps you a little.
Tom

UriDead · Dec 21, 2011

I have to agree with 2door on the break in. Even then a tad bit one way or the other probably won't make any noticeable difference to anything in the scheme of things.

However, I have, do and will continue to use the highest octane fuels in my motorcycles, small motors of all types like leaf blowers and weed eaters... Why? Because the cost is totally negligible in small purchases and consumptions.

But the REAL reason is not for increased anything other than a more tightly less volatile, more controlled and cleaner combustion that results in a cooler running and slightly smoother engine. That is what the high octane stuff is designed to do. Period.

Yes, the cost is stupid ridiculous... if you're buying 20-30 gallons, but seriously, another 30 cents on a couple gallons really going to hurt you?

Try it and you'll see. It's a better burn.

5-7HEAVEN · Dec 21, 2011

My advice would be to do your research here and stick with what the majority is using/doing.

THENNN, if you're adventurous and daring, experiment with different octanes and oils. I just switched to 100:1 Opti-2 for my Tanaka 47R engine. I like the results, especially less oil spray from a center-mounted engine.

My engine was designed for 87 octane, but I'm willing to try high octane for better performance.

Greg58 · Dec 21, 2011

Does your fuel have ethanol in it? I run a fuel additive made by omc for outboards to treat fuel for all small engines, its called 4 plus 2. Here in the Atlanta area the blended fuel is all that is available, the signs say " may contain up to 10%". I have had good results with reg. fuel with the 4 plus 2 and the lucas simi-synthetic at 40/1. I did the break-in as 2 Door had sugested.

spanners · Dec 21, 2011

After much experimenting with fuel mixes I settled on a 25/1 synthetic two stroke oil and 98 octane fuel and add Nulon pro strength octane booster at 25/1 .This cocktail made a difference in performance (not a lot) .It also seemed to make the motor run cooler ,Good luck finding a mix that suits your motor.

leadfarmer · Dec 21, 2011

Go simple. I went 16:1 first gallon, 24:1 second gallon, and am now at 32:1. Skip the additives.The troubles you will face probably won't have to do with core engine(piston and crank) but with the magneto(buy a spare) spark plug (buy a spare), chain tensioner and every other da%$! thing, except for piston and crank.

vachon644 · Dec 24, 2011

So many people are deluded into thinking that their engines are somehow more powerful with higher octane-rated fuel! I am baffled!

Please read this if you're unfamiliar with what octane ratings actually mean:
Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A common misconception is that power output or fuel efficiency can be improved by burning fuel of higher octane than that specified by the engine manufacturer. The power output of an engine depends in part on the energy density of the fuel being burnt. Fuels of different octane ratings may have similar densities, but because switching to a higher octane fuel does not add more hydrocarbon content or oxygen, the engine cannot develop more power." (Straight out of Wikipedia)

In short :
Higher octane does NOT give you more power, it only prevents your HIGH-COMPRESSION (a slant head china girl has low compression) engine from knocking or pinging.

Conclusion : Your china girl can be fed 87 octane without problems and will NOT run better NOR worse on higher octane fuel.

Sorry if that seems rude but sometimes facts are at easy reach yet people ignore them.

BarelyAWake · Dec 25, 2011

You're right vachon644, but it's no mystery as to why folks are under the impression that somehow higher octane ratings provides "more power" - every billboard, radio, TV & magazine advertisement, every fuel station screams that their product is the best, that their most expensive product is the one you must have, that if you simply spend the most you'll get the most & if you don't... well obviously you're just a silly tool lol

"Unleash the tiger in the tank" pfft, hairballs in the fuel filter >.<

A very important point in that wiki article that deserves notice & one you'll not hear mentioned in the ads is this: "Where the octane number is raised by blending in ethanol, energy content per volume is reduced" - and with today's fuels you can bet that despite what the ethanol blend is labeled as, the higher the octane rating - the more ethanol has been added - the less power & efficiency you'll have.

Where the power & efficiency comes from in an engine that requires a higher octane fuel is it's high compression ratio, not the fuel *shrug*

quik225 · Dec 25, 2011

An engine will produce the most power by using the lowest octane fuel without detonation.
Higher octane doesn't produce more power, it prevents power robbing detonation.
Detonation can be more than a loss in power, it can also cause engine damage. Not all detonation can be felt or heard so sometimes it does pay to run a higher ocatne fuel, and the power loss that goes with it, than suffer engine failure.

UriDead · Dec 26, 2011

"But the REAL reason is not for increased anything other than a more tightly less volatile, more controlled and cleaner combustion that results in a cooler running and slightly smoother engine. That is what the high octane stuff is designed to do. Period."

I don't see any delusional posts in the topic here and another poster experiencing "better performance" is no reason to say they are claiming 'more power'. High rpm 2 stokes are a totally different animal than your car. Your mileage may vary.

spanners · Dec 26, 2011

I have been testing a rock solid motor with porting modds a poch head .The last checked compression it was between 12 to 1 and 14 to1. I also live a sea level if that has an effect I don’t know. On the steep hill I do my testing on, .I tried three types of fuel on the same day with the same running temp on the motor each run, I used standard unleaded, super unleaded and supper unleaded with additive. The supper with the additive was the only one that got me over the hill with out pedaling .I did this test twice on different days with the same results. I’m not one for throwing money away. I’m not trying to sell anyone one on using additive this is just what I have experienced myself. My post was not intended to upset anyone.

2door · Dec 26, 2011

What was the "additive"?
Tom

Barnfresh · Dec 26, 2011

spanners - 12:1 - 14:1 is pretty decent compression for a performance 2-stroke on gasoline. I can see where the higher octane would help. Did you experience any "knock" with the standard unleaded during your test? What additive did you use?

spanners · Dec 28, 2011

I have two motors in the same set up both knock; the additive helped but knock still comes and goes but nothing like it was if the timing could be slightly advanced it may be a big help .I am unable to see an easy way of doing this. The knocking is slightly more pronounced in the F80 than the Rock solid motor unsure why this is, slightly different compression maybe, the rock solid motor is the only one compression tested so I’m unsure, I have a tester and will do a comparisons test when time permits. Also I'm using well above the recommended amount of additive advised at 120/1 on the container. So you will need to do make your own mind on trying it. These have just been my very basic tests so make up your own mine.
The product is Nulon Pro strength octane booster.
Contains; methycycopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl 65mL/L liquid hydrocarbons920mL/L.The clam among others are to boost up to 7 numbers ron (70 points) I have no connection with this product in any way. Getting away from this, I would like to wish all the members a great new years eve and a safe one; I know it’s hard to do both.
Cheers
James

the red bike was the test bike

Motorbikermark · Dec 28, 2011

Well Onenine I hope you learned a lesson, Every person in this Hobby/way of life/passion has their own opinion, and has tested said opinion, and they are all correct because they are opinions. There is no testing labs, there are no Government funded studies, theres just a bunch of guys trying different things, Hoping to find little gains in power, reliability, and fun. Some may jump me for this but if you are just looking for basic transportation go buy a prebuilt scooter. But if you are wanting to be part of a community that is passionate about what they do then welcome aboard! I suggest you monitor the threads that pertain to what it is you want to accomplish, Then look for the person who seems the most experienced and well informed and go to his stats and start reading his post on the subject. But just remember if you want a bike that will run for 5000 miles don't listen to the guy that regularly post "OOPS JUST BLEW UP ANOTHER!" you may take note as not to do what he has done, But get your advice from the guy with the MB with 8000miles on it. Congrats on your sobriety and always remember rules 1 and 2. Tell Bill I said HI!
God Speed, Mark dnut

Greybeard · Dec 28, 2011

I have a 33cc Tanaka. The compression ratio is 7-1. In one publication it said to run 92 octane and in another it said 93. The HT engines are 7-1 as well, but people insist they run great with 87octane. If they get 100mpg, it would cost $2.00 per 1000miles more to run premium. Less than 2bucks a year for me, I'll pay it.
In the part of the service manual for my Tanaka that tells about mixing gas, it says to break it in @ 25-1 Tanaka or good 2 stroke oil, and then 33-50-1. EXCEPT FOR CALIFORNIA where it's to be 50-1 only. I'm going with the 33-1.
Some on this board run Opti-2 @ 100-1. It can't be cost, as 32oz of Penzoil is $6 @ Wally, and 10 oz of Opti-2 is $13 around here. @33-1 the Penzoil is still 1/2 the cost.

vachon644 · Dec 28, 2011

Greybeard said:
I have a 33cc Tanaka. The compression ratio is 7-1. In one publication it said to run 92 octane and in another it said 93. The HT engines are 7-1 as well, but people insist they run great with 87octane.

Compression ratio is not a real measure of the final compression. Rings, number of rings, heads, etc can affect the real compression of the engine. I own a 70cc two-stroke (Stage6 Sport Pro on Minarelli Horizontal A/C) wich has a 14:1 compression ratio and I run 91 octane in it as prescribed. It's a single ring though.

5-7HEAVEN · Dec 29, 2011

Greybeard said:
I have a 33cc Tanaka. The compression ratio is 7-1. In one publication it said to run 92 octane and in another it said 93. The HT engines are 7-1 as well, but people insist they run great with 87octane. If they get 100mpg, it would cost $2.00 per 1000miles more to run premium. Less than 2bucks a year for me, I'll pay it.
In the part of the service manual for my Tanaka that tells about mixing gas, it says to break it in @ 25-1 Tanaka or good 2 stroke oil, and then 33-50-1. EXCEPT FOR CALIFORNIA where it's to be 50-1 only. I'm going with the 33-1.
Some on this board run Opti-2 @ 100-1. It can't be cost, as 32oz of Penzoil is $6 @ Wally, and 10 oz of Opti-2 is $13 around here. @33-1 the Penzoil is still 1/2 the cost.

Everyone needs to shop around for deals.

I bought 4 liters for $90. That's 66.33 cents/100 ounces of gas.
Another rider bought 1.8 ounce for $2.50 at the same store. That's $1.39/ounce.

Here's a good deal @ $60.80/4-liter jug:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Opti-2-cycl...570?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fc573aea

This purchase is 44.81 cents per ounce. That's with Opti-2 benefits and costs 28.3% less(18 cents) per 100 ounces of gas.

Pennzoil costs 18.75 cents/ounce. Since you need to use 3 times as much, that's 62.5 cents per 100 ounces of gas.

At $90/liter, I get all the Opti-2 benefits for less than 4 cents per 100 ounce fillup. dance1

Gan Man · Jan 24, 2012

I recently bought skyhawk 66 here in ontario, manual said 18/1 1st gallon 2nd gallon 25/1 . I also bought lucus semi syn 2 stroke smokeless measures in oz & gallons , how many liters in a gallon ?

fuel octane and oil mixture

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