the tale of the mythical grubee 4 stroke 12 volt system

outlawbiker · Aug 8, 2011

ive finally decided to jump out of the 2 stroke market for various reasons,and what sealed the deal was stories of this new grubee 4 stroke with a 12 volt alternator that they were advertizing. however i can not find one. some websites here have actually posted pics of this fabled engine,but when i call them to make sure it is they tell me they only used the pictures from grubee and it is NOT the engine with the alternator/generator/stator or anything like that. can anyone point me in the right direction of a place that actually sells these types of engine kits?

MotoMagz · Aug 8, 2011

outlawbiker said:
ive finally decided to jump out of the 2 stroke market for various reasons,and what sealed the deal was stories of this new grubee 4 stroke with a 12 volt alternator that they were advertizing. however i can not find one. some websites here have actually posted pics of this fabled engine,but when i call them to make sure it is they tell me they only used the pictures from grubee and it is NOT the engine with the alternator/generator/stator or anything like that. can anyone point me in the right direction of a place that actually sells these types of engine kits?

Your best bet is to call Bicycle-Engines.com and ask them 800-514-8435

outlawbiker · Aug 8, 2011

called the guy, he said they got one as a sample but doesn't know what happen to it. my money is riding on the fact of how hard it is to come by one he kept it for himself which i can understand.

outlawbiker · Aug 11, 2011

UPDATE: got the number for someone who sells 4 stroke Grubee kits who is listed as an authorized dealer in the US. he tells me they tryed a batch of them and it was robbing the engine of power and that made them no good to sell. however i tried to clarify that these newer engines had a separate generator in case there was confusion and i still dont think there was an understanding,just a potential sale for a normal kit.

according to the pictures and diagrams,the CDI/ignition system looks like its separate from the "generator system" if thats the case how is it robbing the engine of that much power? or to justify that these kits are that much of an issue.

is it just me or was this guy just trying to say he doesn't have any of these or at one time he did,but that he was trying to get a sale off me with what ever he has in stock?

The_Aleman · Aug 11, 2011

Well, considering the engine is rated for 1.2KW and it dedicates almost 10% of that to the genny, that's a significant take from the engine's output.

Electrical generation always "robs power". The HS doesn't have much to spare. Also, the genny motor is 2" wider than stock! That's alot IMHO.

wayne z · Aug 11, 2011

The one in the pic doesn't look any wider than My HS.
When the ad says "wider" , it doesn't specify on which side.

I think he meant engine is wider looking at it from the flywheel end, because of the space taken by the extra coil in the shroud.

outlawbiker · Aug 11, 2011

The_Aleman said:
Well, considering the engine is rated for 1.2KW and it dedicates almost 10% of that to the genny, that's a significant take from the engine's output.

Electrical generation always "robs power". The HS doesn't have much to spare. Also, the genny motor is 2" wider than stock! That's alot IMHO.

imo,id agree with you if there was a belt driven alternator attached or even if this gen was tied into the electrical for the spark plug,but its a stand alone item sitting in there separate. i couldn't think that there is that much magnetic force "braking" the engine therefore to rob power from the engine.to me thats like the same thing the mini gen sold on ebay for the 2 cycles does,and ive never heard of them causing some kind of loss in power.

as for the 2 inches wider issue,thats not bad, i mean for what its worth,ill find away to get it to work,its not like 4 or 6 inches wider id have to deal with.2 inches could be as easy as shaving down a shroud,or spacing out the crank,or whatever. where theres a will,theres a way.

wayne z · Aug 11, 2011

I don't think it is2"wider between the pedals. The extra coil makes it wider on the other axis, from the seat post to the downtube.

The_Aleman · Aug 11, 2011

wayne z said:
The one in the pic doesn't look any wider than My HS.
When the ad says "wider" , it doesn't specify on which side.

I think he meant engine is wider looking at it from the flywheel end, because of the space taken by the extra coil in the shroud.

Looks wider as mounted between the pedals to me. How else would the generator work without being driven by a belt or chain?
The intake and exhaust stick out over 2" from the engine.

outlawbiker said:
imo,id agree with you if there was a belt driven alternator attached or even if this gen was tied into the electrical for the spark plug,but its a stand alone item sitting in there separate. i couldn't think that there is that much magnetic force "braking" the engine therefore to rob power from the engine.to me thats like the same thing the mini gen sold on ebay for the 2 cycles does,and ive never heard of them causing some kind of loss in power.

Well, it takes power to make power, and some is lost in the conversion. The HS with the genny is rated at 1.2KW while the standard HS is rated 1.5KW.
That means the HS with the genny has 20% less power. 1.6HP vs 2.0HP. So it appears to lose 300 watts of output to generate that ~95 watt genny.

I feel a significant difference between a GXH50 and a regular HS, and there's a ~20% difference in rated horsepower between them.
Hence, that would make the HS w/genny much slower than a Honda!

wayne z · Aug 12, 2011

The_Aleman said:
Looks wider as mounted between the pedals to me. How else would the generator work without being driven by a belt or chain?
The intake and exhaust stick out over 2" from the engine.

Well the coil is mounted in the same plane as the igniton coil to use the same magnets, just opposite of it. That's where the 2" is. It don't have a chain or belt drive.

The ad said the "engine" was wider, nothing about the exhaust.

I have one of these engines in my possesion to compare to the photo.
They are about 10" wide with gearbox.

The_Aleman · Aug 12, 2011

wayne z said:
The ad said the "engine" was wider, nothing about the exhaust.

But see, I said that as an example. If you claim the engine is wider in that direction, the exhaust and intake already stick out at least 2" from the engine.
So is this genny supposed to stick out 2" beyond that? Prolly not, so this engine will likely be wider between the pedals.

I have one of these engines in my possesion to compare to the photo.
They are about 10" wide with gearbox.

You have a genny engine? Or you have a regular Huasheng? And which one?
I have a standard HS 142F with the "Honda" 4G, and it's on a SBP shift kit with widest spindle they offer.
With 4G cover on, the crank barely clears the 4G side, and the circle is just under the widest point of starter assembly.
The full HS+HS 4G is almost 1.5" wider than my setup. Many pedals won't clear. I would not want to think about 2" beyond that!

Anyway, I'm not trying to spread FUD or anything here. I'd love to see one of these HS genny motors, but there's obviously compromises.

outlawbiker · Aug 12, 2011

Aleman,i can appreciate what you are saying,but even if your losing a .2 or .4 in HP how much harder could it be to throw a few performance upgrades here or there to take up the compensation. just saying.... and yes, you should notice a difference in power between a Honda and a cheap Chinese clone,if that was the case Honda should be out of business and everyone would buy HS engines cause whos stupid enough to pay for top dollar when they'd get the same for cheaper,so yes, theres going to be a difference there.

after all is said and done who wouldn't take that small of a loss in output to have that kind of flexible electric to play with? for me this ends all my problems with the crappy lighting that i can get my hands on, no more stupid diode sets to play with,no more rechargeable batteries,no more LEDS,no more dynamo hubs and scrubber bottle gens that put out crap for voltage/amperage/watts.this system will take care of all the problems that i was looking for.

i wouldn't take this so much of a loss considering what i am gaining out of it.so what if i have to buy a regulator/rectifier still beats out the cost of the other crap i had to try to get come close to a normal visible headlight so i can see more than 5 feet in front of me on a pitch black night. sure,if i had the money id buy a whizzer,but i dont,and i have to make due with what i can get my hands on for as little money as i have and even if i did,theres no telling what hoops i would have to jump thru just to drive the damn thing legally and at that cost i might as well drive a Harley.

i dont have a drivers license and probably wont for a few years,this isnt a hobby,this is my transportation,this my life, to keep my head above water,i dont have many options and this is my only loophole to keep working to payback those corrupt evil bastards back in Illinois to release my DL so i can move on with life,after that,id never ride an MB again.

wayne z · Aug 12, 2011

Well, it's obvious to me that the shroud in the genny pic sticks out from the engine block in the pedal area about the same as my non genny HS.

The generator coil mounts to the SIDE of the flywheel , opposite of the igniton coil to work off the same magnets that the igniton coil uses not in front of it. Logic alone would determine that there should be negligable difference in the pedal area.

the engine is wider towards the front of the bike about 2" in the coil area only. nothing to do with the exhaust area.. The exhaust still sticks out more than anything else on that side.

The_Aleman · Aug 12, 2011

outlawbiker said:
Aleman,i can appreciate what you are saying,but even if your losing a .2 or .4 in HP how much harder could it be to throw a few performance upgrades here or there to take up the compensation. just saying.... and yes, you should notice a difference in power between a Honda and a cheap Chinese clone,if that was the case Honda should be out of business and everyone would buy HS engines cause whos stupid enough to pay for top dollar when they'd get the same for cheaper,so yes, theres going to be a difference there.

I hear ya man, but you really don't get "the same for cheaper". The GXH50 has more compression, can rev higher longer, and responds more to the mods you mention. Anyone who's had a valve cover off both engines can tell you which one has better castings and general fit and finish. Almost anyone can acknowledge an engine made in Japan is superior than one made in China.
The GXH50 costs 2-2.5x as much as a HS or Titan, but when all mods are applied it will almost indefinitely prove the superior engine in the end.

Of course this aint about what vs wat, but considering the end result, the price difference will have the opposite affect you are saying here when you stress em both.

after all is said and done who wouldn't take that small of a loss in output to have that kind of flexible electric to play with? for me this ends all my problems with the crappy lighting that i can get my hands on, no more stupid diode sets to play with,no more rechargeable batteries,no more LEDS,no more dynamo hubs and scrubber bottle gens that put out crap for voltage/amperage/watts.this system will take care of all the problems that i was looking for.

Yeah, we all have our own needs, and I'm sorry to hear you have so much trouble with lighting. As a longtime bicyclist, I've run bottle gennys since the 80's and sometimes just battery lights so I know where you're coming from. Blowing out bulbs left and right, Radio Shack knows you by name soon lol AA and AAA get expensive and rechargeable sometimes don't cut it after an hour or less.

There's some good LEDs out there in the 1-3W range tho, and like most lights they are only as good as their reflectors/optics. I've been looking at custom LEDs alot lately, because ATM I have a 3W light system consisting of dual front and rear flashers. My setup is visibility-oriented tho, it's hard to see on streets with no streetlights.

Planet Bike has a neat headlight app: PLANET BIKE - Bicycle Accessories: lightfinder Notice how decent the 1W and 2W are! They make a 1W that runs off bottle and hub gennys. And this is a standard consumer light. Custom has much more potential. Do you really need a poorly implemented 95-100W power source for lights?

i wouldn't take this so much of a loss considering what i am gaining out of it.so what if i have to buy a regulator/rectifier still beats out the cost of the other crap i had to try to get come close to a normal visible headlight so i can see more than 5 feet in front of me on a pitch black night. sure,if i had the money id buy a whizzer,but i dont,and i have to make due with what i can get my hands on for as little money as i have and even if i did,theres no telling what hoops i would have to jump thru just to drive the damn thing legally and at that cost i might as well drive a Harley.

Yeah, I can't afford a dang Harley either. They're too fast for me, anyway lol. All I can say is do more research. Don't be too hasty!

i dont have a drivers license and probably wont for a few years,this isnt a hobby,this is my transportation,this my life, to keep my head above water,i dont have many options and this is my only loophole to keep working to payback those corrupt evil bastards back in Illinois to release my DL so i can move on with life,after that,id never ride an MB again.

Birds of a feather! Riding these is my life, like many of us here. Ride well

Dan · Aug 12, 2011

Oh man Biker. Bummer to read. You were so excited when you had found one.

For a cheap alternative, could mount a moped alternator on the front. I have yet to try that but thinking use a rag joint for chain or a belt deal. (hmm, belt might be better as it would or could slip a bit for off the line starts. Gotta think about it)

Just hating that this was such a bummer for you. Double as it is a need and not just a want.

outlawbiker · Aug 12, 2011

thanks for the support dan,but im not giving up hope,i still haven't acquired the money just for a normal 4g kit yet, im hoping by then someone will have the generator models available so i can figure out how much more to pay for it.

Dan · Aug 12, 2011

Always Buddy.

After I posted that I got to thinking about an alternator thing. Could get one dirt cheap and heck, mount it as a friction drive. If it could be lifted off/disengaged when batt is topped off, no resistance or power loss. In that respect would be an advantage over an intrinsically mounted gen/alt. (I think) Say like for city traffic where you ride a block and have to stop at a light and accelerate on a green and keep up with cars.

Wow, can see it in my head. I dunno how to do the math but that would/could work. Can any one make a suggestion? I wanna try this.

Don't mean to ramble on your thread. Ridding home last night just after sun set was not fun and thinking about folks who have to ride at night much less on a week-end or holiday night. Old ladies, drunks and car doors scare the bejeebeius out of me on a MB.

wayne z · Aug 12, 2011

Takea look at a Kubota dynamo for friction driven power. They are small,, bout the size of a balled up fist, 10 amps 12volts, and the whole outside is smooth and rotates with the pulley. Can use any cheap mower regulator with it.

wayne z · Aug 12, 2011

Some of the ultralight guys used a radiator fan motor with blades, to make a wind driven generator for power . Heater fan motors work too. I experimented with as many types of DC motors as I could scrounge.

I found that no matter what small 12v motor you use, from kidde car motors to radiator fan motors, The tympanium regulators for snowmobiles or yard equipment works well to maintain a 12v battery with them. They are intended to regulate ac current from light coils, but they work in this application too.

I don't think a starter motor is the best candidate. The brushes and bearings are intended for intermittant duty, and the large guage windings prolly aren't the most efficent for generation.

Dan · Aug 12, 2011

Cool thought about a fan gen/alt.

I have two electrical engineer buddies who keep talking me out of this thought and going solar. (The scooter alt thing)

Big time my bad, that was not the link I meant to post. Your right. Gonna delete it.

the tale of the mythical grubee 4 stroke 12 volt system

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